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misuse of the term 'Hindutva'

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
The term 'Hindutva' was first coined in 1923, and back then essentially meant 'Hinduness'. Ever since Hindus have started to stand up for themselves, the anti-Hindu crowd has been using the term as if it were the equivalent of a right wing terrorist fascist militia. Hence the west and others have been misled about the true meaning.

Whenever Hindus stand up against idea like shariya law, government corruption, Christian conversion, and lots of other things that put the majority Hindus at any disadvantage, the non-Hindus will toss out 'Hindutva; repeatedly as an emotional appeal.

VHP and RSS are the main parties that promote Hindutva, but in the old way. A simple example is the push for a uniform civil code across India, thereby eliminating sharia law, seen by Hindus as brutally archaic.

This fairly lengthy Wiki article explains the history in detail. Hindutva - Wikipedia

I see an analogy to LGBT rights. While LGBT people just want a fair deal under the law, to be treated fairly, the anti-LGBT crowd says silly stuff like 'the gay agenda' or accuse people of 'trying to turn the whole word gay', and of course we know all kinds of false info is presented, not so much any more, thankfully.

So I just wish people would look into the term 'Hindutva' a bit more closely before assuming those identifying with it are gun toting members of the Hindu equivalent of ISIS,

For the record, I'm a proud member of Hindutva, and will wear it on my sleeve, so to speak.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
The term 'Hindutva' was first coined in 1923, and back then essentially meant 'Hinduness'. Ever since Hindus have started to stand up for themselves, the anti-Hindu crowd has been using the term as if it were the equivalent of a right wing terrorist fascist militia. Hence the west and others have been misled about the true meaning.

Whenever Hindus stand up against idea like shariya law, government corruption, Christian conversion, and lots of other things that put the majority Hindus at any disadvantage, the non-Hindus will toss out 'Hindutva; repeatedly as an emotional appeal.

VHP and RSS are the main parties that promote Hindutva, but in the old way. A simple example is the push for a uniform civil code across India, thereby eliminating sharia law, seen by Hindus as brutally archaic.

This fairly lengthy Wiki article explains the history in detail. Hindutva - Wikipedia

I see an analogy to LGBT rights. While LGBT people just want a fair deal under the law, to be treated fairly, the anti-LGBT crowd says silly stuff like 'the gay agenda' or accuse people of 'trying to turn the whole word gay', and of course we know all kinds of false info is presented, not so much any more, thankfully.

So I just wish people would look into the term 'Hindutva' a bit more closely before assuming those identifying with it are gun toting members of the Hindu equivalent of ISIS,

For the record, I'm a proud member of Hindutva, and will wear it on my sleeve, so to speak.
Some problems are real. The killings and the threats and harassment of people who air differing views is not tolerable in any legitimate expression of Hinduism. Such things ought to dealt with strongly so that freedom of speech and conscience remains protected in the Indian state unlike its neighbors.
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/04/...e-speech-kalburgi-pansare-dabholkar.html?_r=0
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Some problems are real.

Yes some problems are real. Nobody is denying that. The problem is that the term 'Hindutva' is used as a specific term, not in the way it was meant to be. So when some Hindu guy or small group takes their frustration out on perceived discrimination against them. the entire Hindu world gets blamed. Does the press blame all of Christianity for the reckless irresponsible criminal behaviour of a few?

We often don't get the whole story either. In your example, there is no reporting on what may have preceded these events. Christians in the act of aggressive conversion argue that its against free speech, or freedom of religion to stop them because they're 'just practicing' their faith. Well sorry, but if some guy points a gun to my head because its his religion to do so, I'm not convinced to allow him for the principle of 'freedom of religion'.

Don't forget that Modi was once banned from the US for being too radical.

Why Narendra Modi Was Banned From the U.S.

'Hindutva' isn't the only term that has been altered over the years and used to rile emotions.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Yes some problems are real. Nobody is denying that. The problem is that the term 'Hindutva' is used as a specific term, not in the way it was meant to be. So when some Hindu guy or small group takes their frustration out on perceived discrimination against them. the entire Hindu world gets blamed. Does the press blame all of Christianity for the reckless irresponsible criminal behaviour of a few?
Well, actually it does. All Islam is blamed for actions of terrorists, all catholicism is blamed for actions of some if its priests and nuns, all evangelicals are blamed for actions of some regarding creationism or violence against gays, all latinos are blamed for crimes of a few, all whites are blamed for racism of a few, all atheists are tarred as rabid and amoral, all left and liberal people are blamed for actions of Communists....
That is what media, politicians and special interest groups does..create a climate of distrust and victimization so that we watch tv out of fear, vote out of fear, support some agenda or the other out of fear....for as long as we are afraid, we will not look closely at the hollowness and hypocrisy of these fear mongers and the shallow-ness of its pundits. Divide and conquer is alive and well in the modern world.

We often don't get the whole story either. In your example, there is no reporting on what may have preceded these events. Christians in the act of aggressive conversion argue that its against free speech, or freedom of religion to stop them because they're 'just practicing' their faith. Well sorry, but if some guy points a gun to my head because its his religion to do so, I'm not convinced to allow him for the principle of 'freedom of religion'.
Killings are facts, so is the harassment of writers the article alluded to. And these things continue to happen
Padmavati sets vandalised, set on fire in Kolhapur. Sanjay Leela Bhansali to file complaint, see pics
About 20 to 30 people reached the sets of the film armed with petrol bombs, stones and lathis. They allegedly fought off the bodyguards and bouncers who were present at the sets. The security had earlier been beefed up at the sets in the light of Jaipur incident. Before setting the venue on fire, they also damaged the cars parked around the sets. They allegedly set on fire the costumes of the film and also torched the fodder kept for the horses, senior police inspector, Panhala Police Station, Dhanya Kumar Godse told PTI. The film’s security team caught hold of two of the vandals. However, they were attacked by the other members.

The only thing I am pointing out is that such things should not be allowed to happen in the name of Hinduism.


Don't forget that Modi was once banned from the US for being too radical.
US foreign policy is a joke.



'Hindutva' isn't the only term that has been altered over the years and used to rile emotions.
Well, secularism and pluralism is another term that has been distorted beyond recognition by some Indian parties. So let us remember what it means from the person whose insignia is in India's flag:-

Beloved-of-the-Gods, King Piyadasi, honors both ascetics and the householders of all religions, and he honors them with gifts and honors of various kinds. But Beloved-of-the-Gods, King Piyadasi, does not value gifts and honors as much as he values this -- that there should be growth in the essentials of all religions. Growth in essentials can be done in different ways, but all of them have as their root restraint in speech, that is, not praising one's own religion, or condemning the religion of others without good cause. And if there is cause for criticism, it should be done in a mild way. But it is better to honor other religions for this reason. By so doing, one's own religion benefits, and so do other religions, while doing otherwise harms one's own religion and the religions of others. Whoever praises his own religion, due to excessive devotion, and condemns others with the thought "Let me glorify my own religion," only harms his own religion. Therefore contact (between religions) is good. One should listen to and respect the doctrines professed by others. Beloved-of-the-Gods, King Piyadasi, desires that all should be well-learned in the good doctrines of other religions.

Those who are content with their own religion should be told this: Beloved-of-the-Gods, King Piyadasi, does not value gifts and honors as much as he values that there should be growth in the essentials of all religions. And to this end many are working -- Dhamma Mahamatras, Mahamatras in charge of the women's quarters, officers in charge of outlying areas, and other such officers. And the fruit of this is that one's own religion grows and the Dhamma is illuminated also.


8cb9f76d-270b-4094-bc78-d022050673bd.jpg
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Surely you're not comparing 10 some incidents in India, a billion people, to ISIS, or mass attempted genocides.

Yes wrong is wrong, but one has to look at the numbers. Even 100 people is insignificant to those numbers. The Islamic invasions destroyed 100 000 Hindu temples. Hindus destroyed 1 (that wasn't even in use) and the western press remembers that one.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Surely you're not comparing 10 some incidents in India, a billion people, to ISIS, or mass attempted genocides.
No I am not comparing incidents in India with ISIS or any genocide. Could you point to any western media channel that has said so?

Yes wrong is wrong, but one has to look at the numbers. Even 100 people is insignificant to those numbers. The Islamic invasions destroyed 100 000 Hindu temples. Hindus destroyed 1 (that wasn't even in use) and the western press remembers that one.
Firstly, media is only tasked with reporting things that occur in the present day and not what happened far back in history.
Secondly, media does report current persecution of Hindus by Muslim extremist groups and nations quite frequently. India should definitely apply diplomatic pressure to stop such things. I expected Mr. Modi to put this on the top agenda, but I have seen very little so far.
Why Pakistani Hindus leave their homes for India - BBC News
The Plight of Pakistan's Hindu Community
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/03/world/asia/hindu-muslim-bangladesh.html
Violence Against Non-Muslims Increases in Bangladesh
Malaysia's Hindu minority

Its a very common phenomena where all people (atheists, liberals, conservatives, religious people of all groups) are being directed only to those links and websites that are similar in content to what they initially showed a preference. Thus I have noticed that everyone today has a false perception of what is or is not reported by the media.

And communal violence perpetrated by either Muslims,. Maoists or Hindus are a concern. They continue to happen at a steady clip and this should not be the case.
2013 Muzaffarnagar riots - Wikipedia
 

Fireside_Hindu

Jai Lakshmi Maa
Well, actually it does. All Islam is blamed for actions of terrorists, all catholicism is blamed for actions of some if its priests and nuns, all evangelicals are blamed for actions of some regarding creationism or violence against gays, all latinos are blamed for crimes of a few, all whites are blamed for racism of a few, all atheists are tarred as rabid and amoral, all left and liberal people are blamed for actions of Communists....



Really? Maybe we're exposed to different news outlets but my experience is that if the perpetrator is white and/Christian, their religion is almost never mentioned. Brown people - religious affiliation is almost always the first thing people want to know. (At least it seems like that's the question that gets asked right up front)

Maybe it's a question of emphasis and wording. When Christian criminals are described people use such words like, "Ultra-conservative" rather than "Terrorist". Words have emotional impact and powerful associations. I also notice that with Christian extremism, people will create a degree of separation by using terms like, "Cult" in order to say, "Hey, this isn't really Christianity, this is different. Don't blame Christians for this." Which is right, but it's not a courtesy I see extended to any other group.
 

Spirit_Warrior

Active Member
This is a much needed discussion. It is very relevant to modern Indian and Hindu politics. Therefore, I felt the need to explain a bit of its recent history.

Hindutva is a victim of its nomenclature. When the term was first coined, using "Hindu" as a geographical reference was common, and even the British referred to Indians as "Hindoos" So political nationalist philosophers in India at the time who were fighting against British rule, had to come up with an alternative identity for India from the one the British imposed on them --- which basically was no identity at all: India was defined in terms of invaders and history of India was nothing but just non stop invasions and warring states. There was no "India" to speak of, and no "Indian culture" and anything that thought to be "Indian" was brought in by invaders. The British brought democracy, rule of law, railways and industy; the Muslims brought architecture, cuisine and devotion to one God(then inherited by Sikhism) and the Greeks brought art, philosophy, mathematics and logic. The Aryans brought Sanskrit and Vedas. In other words, there was nothing "Indian" ever. India is just a "construct" this position is taken even seriously today, as the recent attempts by "Seculars" in US made an attempt to change "India" into "South Asia" in discourse

This colonial narrative of India, is the same narrative you hear the specularists and the communists of India still repeat today. The NCERT history books for example only look at those periods of history where there was an invasion. First it is the Aryan invasion, with the coming or now "migrating" Aryans bringing Vedic culture. Then it is the Greek invasion, with the Greeks setting up Indo-Greek states where later Indian philosopy flourished by borrowing the concepts from the Greeks. Although today, some scholars begrudgingly accept some Indian philosophical ideas were original because they are older, to a large extent they consider the so-called golden age of India the Gupta age where literature, astronomy, mathematics and the the economy flourished, as a result of earlier Greek influences. Then it is the Mughal invasions and finally the British invasions.

Many periods of Indian history are missing. The the pre-Greek periods i.e. pre Mauryan are scarcely mentioned, but this is the ACTUAL golden age of India, when great Hindu scientists, philosophers and dramatists flourished such as Susrutha, Charaka, Patanjali, Pingala, Kautaliya, Kapila, Kannada, Kapila, Bharata, Vyassa etc flourished. This is the period when the first universities and hospitals were built in India. This is the period when we find earliest Bhakti sects.

But the history books have been so muddled up, that a lot of pre-Mauryan developments get dated to the Gupta age. For example Susrutha is 600BCE by most records, he was a professor of surgery at Kasi university, but you will find dates of Susrutha as late as 500CE.
Gautama Aksapada, the founder of Nyaya is suppose to have been around the same time, but his dates have been moved to 200CE, because it is assumed Nyaya was influenced by Greek logic

The reason why many Indian people have not heard of this period and the great people of it, is well because they are "Hindu" It is convenient to start the narrative of urban India from the Mauryans because they are Jain and Buddhist. This is the "secularist" narrative of modern India and hence the emblem for the Republic of India is the "Ashoka chakra" of Asoka who is seen as a "secular" king. It is not just in the pre-Mauryan period that Hindu history gets ignored, but even post-Mauryan periods. Many chapters of Hindu history such as the Chola, Pandyas, Sri Vijaynagra, Vikramadiya, Harishchandra, Bhoja, Marthas, Sikhs get scarcely a footnote. This gives the impression there is no "Hindu" history. Indian history is mostly the history of non-Hindus. It is tantamount to erasing Hindu civilisation from history.

So in the earlier half of the 20th century, nationalist Hindu Indian philosophers had to resist against this attempt by the colonialists to erase them from history books, so they came up with "Hindutva" as an attempt define Indian history, heritage, culture and identity. The term "Hindu" was not divisive then, so at the time "Hindutva" was seen as empowering and characterised the spirit of the Indian independence struggle. It was synonymous with Indian nationalism and freedom for Indians.

However, post independence, the word "Hindutva's" connotations have changed, it is no longer a geograhphical reference, it refers to specific religious group called the Hindus in India in opposition to non-Hindus living in India, and hence it is perceived as fascist by non-Hindus. Muslims, Christians, Buddhists, Jains and even Sikhs unite against it as a tyranny of the majority Hindus. If the term was changed to say "Bharatva" or "Dharmatva" it may be less divisive. I think the BJP to an extent has realised this, so that is why in 2014 Manifesto they did not use the term "Hindutva" but instead "India chitti" that is recognising Indian has its unique and ancient consciousness.

The seculars have been successful in making "Hindutva" a bad word, conjuring up other other words like fascism, fundamentalism , Nazism, intolerance and terrorism when used. They have had almost 70 years to spread the propaganda and have controlled the culture industries of India like the print media, film and television and academia. These ideas are firmly entrenched in Indian socialist minds. Even though the Congress-rule is over India, the Congress mentality still controls the elites of Indian culture e.g. Recently, when the BJP tried to replace the head of FTII with a pro-Hindutva figure, a wave of socialist and communist filmmakers, writers and academics, considered highly established and acclaimed, lead a month long protest. They became known as the "award vapsi" gang, because they all returned their national awards they won in the past for their works. This also became known as "intolerance" Another replacement by BJP recently was the head of RBI(Reserve Bank of India) another secularist with a pro-Hindutva banker.

The new resurgent BJP which has previously fought elections on the Hindutva platform and and lost out to the secular propaganda, has realised this and under the aegis of Modi has changed its plaform to "development" which has struck a chord with all Indian and Hindutva has taken a back seat, now called "Soft Hindutva" which is just about tolerable to non-Hindus now. It may help the BJP cause to change the name now to something like Bharitya and define a Bharatiya culture, history, heritage and identity which all Indian people can accept. I can already see strong evidence of something like this shift happening, with the recent rise of Indian nationalism. As India becomes more developed, Indian people are becoming more confident in asserting themselves and their past glory. It is not uncommon to hear Indian people say things like "India was the richest nation on Earth before the British came" and now even top previous socialist elites like Shashi Tharoor are singing the tune.. He recently when viral for his speech at the Oxford Debating society for exposing how Britain impoverished India, coming to an India that had 24% or so of the industrial output in the world in 1700 to 2% when they left.

More and more Indians are now learning of great Indian Hindu scientists like Surutha, famous for plastic surgery or Kanada famous for his theory of atoms, largely because of the access to the internet has allowed these facts to circulate. The internet has become a powerful medium of education for a lot of new generation Indians. There was a time when India scientific schools like Nyaya-Vaiseshika, the early analytical and natural philosophers of India were just obscure names only experts in Indian philosophy knew, but now more and more lay people are learning about its existence, especially from other Indians on forums like this. Panini as the first computer scientist has became a popular meme and even ideas like renaming Bakus-Form to "Panini-Bakus-Form" have been suggested. Another suggestion is to rename "Pythagoras theoem" to Baudayana theorem, from where Pythagoras originally got if from. This trend is going to continue over the course of this century, as India emerges as the first or second most powerful country in the world.

What Indian people do need to stay clear off though because it undermines the credibility of the real claims, is to stay away from claims of ancient cloning, vimanas and nuclear weapons. There are lot of over enthusiastic Hindus who go around the internet making these claims, that the legitimate and verifiable claims like Susrutha get thrown away with the bathwater too.
 
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Spirit_Warrior

Active Member
I see an analogy to LGBT rights. While LGBT people just want a fair deal under the law, to be treated fairly, the anti-LGBT crowd says silly stuff like 'the gay agenda' or accuse people of 'trying to turn the whole word gay', and of course we know all kinds of false info is presented, not so much any more, thankfully.

So I just wish people would look into the term 'Hindutva' a bit more closely before assuming those identifying with it are gun toting members of the Hindu equivalent of ISIS,

For the record, I'm a proud member of Hindutva, and will wear it on my sleeve, so to speak.

I really like this analogy. Another similar analogy that gets drawn is to anti-Semiticiam, where Hindus are the new Jews. The analogy is closer because the Jews are a religious group that have mostly remained to themselves and have had been prosperous economically and academically due to strong work ethic, family values, and so are the Hindus. It is especially the NRI Hindus's, because wherever they go in the world they emerge as the most prosperous group. Like the Jews get accused of a "Zionist Agenda" to take over the world, the Hindus get accused of a "Hindutva" agenda to revise history. The Western academics, to a large extent, who are now head quartered in the Harvard or ivy league elite, feel threatened by these Hindus. The recent spate of Hinduphobic academic books like Doniger's "Hindus: An alternative history" and Kripal's "Kali's Child" and all the propaganda against BJP-Modi shows clear evidence of the rising fear of the West against Hindus.

Why the fear? Because Hindus will eventually topple the West to emerge as the most powerful ethnic group. In that case, then why is there not as much Sino-Phobia in the academic elite as there is Hinduphobia? The answer to this, I would say is Chinese are not seen as a threat by Western academics, because they are not an IE people. Hindus and the West are IE people, practically like brothers, hence there is sibling rivalry. They both claim to be the homeland of the IE people, the original Aryans. They both claim to be the cradle of philosophy, science, democracy and arts. If Hindu's were to prove it was always them, it would invalidate the entire narrative of Western history which is premised on their natural superiority and the civilisers of the world. So the Hindus are a far greater threat to Western civilisation than the Chinese, or even the Muslims are.
 

Spirit_Warrior

Active Member
Well, actually it does. All Islam is blamed for actions of terrorists, all catholicism is blamed for actions of some if its priests and nuns, all evangelicals are blamed for actions of some regarding creationism or violence against gays, all latinos are blamed for crimes of a few, all whites are blamed for racism of a few, all atheists are tarred as rabid and amoral, all left and liberal people are blamed for actions of Communists....

The difference here is Hindophobia is institutionalised. You will rarely find an academic who wants to keep their job write Islamaphobic books and articles, those that do get marginalised. Islamphobic attitudes are just considered the attitudes of uneducated layman who blame all Muslims for the actions of a few. In contrast, Hinduphobia is institutionalised, they are not written by just any academics, but ivy-league Harvard grade academics, who much less risk losing their jobs and reputations, get awards for it.

Malhotra points out what we calls "atrocity literature" a literature that Western countries keep on rival countries, even so-called allies, which can be invoked anytime it wants to deal with a country, such as for regime change etc. On India they have volumes of atrocity literature ranging from Hindutva, caste system, dowry, Sati and recently rapes. If you look at the nature of the articles published in say NY times they have an anti-Indian and anti-Hindu tone to them e.g. the recent interest by Western media every major rape in India, has made India the "rape capital of the world" when the real rape capitals are Sweden, South Africa etc. If a rape happens in the West, all of the West and Western culture does not get blamed for it; but if it happens in India, all of India and Indian culture gets blamed for it, particularly by pointing out misogyny in Hinduism. Recently, the rape of the Irish backpacker in Goa, was picked up by a lot of the Western media, and the kind of comments from Western people it garnered, were like this "Who would want to go to his backwards country anyway; India is not a safe country for women; their culture is full of misogynists and rapists" etc

Our own Indian Hindus act like sepoys for them by collaborating in producing atrocity literature against Hindus, such as the likes of Deepa Mehta, John Dayal, Amartya Sen and Barkha Dutt. The latter though, at least at Woman's conference event attended by the director of "India's daughter" actually spoke up when she realised that the Western women activists were trying to essentialse rape to Indian culture, so she had to point out that Western countries had higher rape rates than India did. So perhaps Barkha Dutt is just an example of a "Secular" whose been misguided into acting as a sepoy for an anti-Hindu agenda in the guise of minority and women's right. In the name of human and civil rights, loads of Western NGO's operate in India and recruit these sepoys for anti-Hindu agendas. Fortunately, Modi has a put a check on them ever since coming to power.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Leela Bhansali is picking up a sensitive subject and making up stories just for money. There are so many other themes, why should he pick up something knowing that it will bring controversy? Mumbai film makers do these things again and again. We do not have the US first amendment - do as you wish. This freedom is not guaranteed in the Indian Constitution. The Government of India has constitutionally every right to ban such attempts. IMHO, they should exercise this right. Mumbai film makers should not be given unbridled freedom to play with Hindu sentiments. Let them do it once with Muslims also. I do not regret Bhansali's bashing up. He deserves it. Why should anyone expect that if it is OK in US, it should be OK in India too? We have our ways.
What does Wikipedia know about the incident? The State Minister Azam Khan and one of his deputies were also responsible. It was election time, and it was an engineered riot. The police inaction due to government instruction in the initial stage provoked the Jats. Read the whole story here: http://indiafacts.org/the-real-truth-about-the-muzaffarnagar-riots-part-1/

The fact is that in Muzaffar Nagar and Shamli, Mulims form a very high percentage of population and because of encouragement from the Samajwadi party government were getting bigger than their boots. Therefore, they had it. Now with Yogi at the helm, they will be under control.
 
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Spirit_Warrior

Active Member
Leela Bhansali is picking up a sensitive subject and making up stories just for money. There are so many other themes, why should he pick up something knowing that it will bring controversy? Mumbai film makers do these things again and again. We do not have the US first amendment - do as you wish. This freedom is not guaranteed in the Indian Constitution. The Government of India has constitutionally every right to ban such attempts. IMHO, they should exercise this right. Mumbai film makers should not be given unbridled freedom to play with Hindu sentiments. Let them do it once with Muslims also. I do not regret Bhansali's bashing up. He deserves it. Why should anyone expect that if it is OK in US, it should be OK in India too? We have our ways.

Bhansali has deeply disappointed me recently. There is no doubt that Bhansali is one of the most talented filmmaker in India, his previous works HDDCS, Devdas, Black and Guzaarish have been works of art, immaculately shot, scored and staged. There are few directors in India that can hold a candle to him. However, since watching Bajirao Mastani, I was very disappointed. Bajirao was one the leading figures of the Martha Hindu empires. He won 41 battles against the Muslim tyrants and spread the Hindu flag all over India. So you would expect a historical epic showing Bajirao as a fierce Hindu warrior. But Bhansali was only interested in his legendary romance with a Muslim princess, who he tries to immortalise like Romeo and Juliet. He changes the the story to an internal feud between his oppressive Hindu family and and the oppressed Muslim princess, making the Muslim princess the real hero of his story. The dialogue where the Muslim princess comes uninvited to the naming ceremony of Bajrao's wifes son and gives a sermon on the sanctity of the green colour to the narrow-minded Hindus present made me cringe.

In these secular Bollywood fantasies it is Hindus who are portrayed as the oppressors and the Muslims as the oppressed. Yet, history will definitely show it is the other way around. Now Bhansali is going to portray an infamous Muslim tyrant and barbarian, who killed tens of thousands of Hindus in a single day, sacked famous temple of Hindus Somnath and killed all the Hindu priests and enslaved the women and children, as a romantic hero smitten by the love bug and the people who die in Chittor are merely just collateral? It is beyond disgusting. However, hardy surprising. Just a few years the director of the Oscar nominated Lagaan, Gowariker, made a historical on the Mughal king Akbar, by based it a on a legendary romance with a Hindu princess and portraying him as a noble king. He is the favourite poster-boy of seculars in India, portraying him as the paragon of tolerance and secularism, just because he was less tyrannical than the other Muslim kings. Although even Akbar is known to have massacred Hindus. The reason these seculars dominate Bollywood, is as I said because of 70 years of socialist propaganda, leading to what I think is disproportionate representation, where Hindu who account for 80% of the population become a minority in Bollywood and Muslims who are 14% become the majority. This is pseudo-secularism.

Vinyakas LGBT analogy is apt here, because it shows that Hindutva is merely Hindu standing up demanding equal rights. Hindus are sick of the distortions, misrepresentations and prejudices that have been directed at them for the last 100 years. We didn't have a choice when we being ruled by the iron shoe of the British, but since 1947 we've had a choice, but have been continued to be oppressed in our own country by the Seculars they left behind.. The end of Seculars in 2014 could perhaps be seen as the real date of India's independence.
 
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sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Leela Bhansali is picking up a sensitive subject and making up stories just for money. There are so many other themes, why should he pick up something knowing that it will bring controversy? Mumbai film makers do these things again and again. We do not have the US first amendment - do as you wish. This freedom is not guaranteed in the Indian Constitution. The Government of India has constitutionally every right to ban such attempts. IMHO, they should exercise this right. Mumbai film makers should not be given unbridled freedom to play with Hindu sentiments. Let them do it once with Muslims also. I do not regret Bhansali's bashing up. He deserves it. Why should anyone expect that if it is OK in US, it should be OK in India too? We have our ways.What does Wikipedia know about the incident? The State Minister Azam Khan and one of his deputies were also responsible. It was election time, and it was an engineered riot. The police inaction due to government instruction in the initial stage provoked the Jats. Read the whole story here: http://indiafacts.org/the-real-truth-about-the-muzaffarnagar-riots-part-1/
I consider free speech, including freedom to criticize any and every ideology, an essential right. Anybody should be able to air any views whatsoever as long as they are not directly telling people to kill and harm others. I am also perfectly fine if somebody chooses to draw cartoons of Muhammad or burn any book..quran, bible, communist manifesto, gita, constitution, darwin's books ..whatever. It is unfortunate that you do not think this to be an essential part of a free public square. If one does not like a book or a movie, do not read it or watch it...or write one's own book or movie. Suppression of opinions and speech and expressions by force for any cause is tyranny and unconditionally immoral.


Gita chapter 3

While those who are unwise act from attachment to action, O Arjuna,
So the wise should act without attachment, intending the welfare of the world.
One should not unsettle the minds of the ignorant ones who are attached to action;
The wise ones should cause them to enjoy all actions, while himself performing actions in a disciplined manner.
......................
One acts according to one's own material nature.
Even the wise man does so.
Beings follow their own material nature.
What will restraint accomplish?
 
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Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Suppression of opinions and speech and expressions by force for any cause is tyranny and unconditionally immoral.
Foolish historical concoctions, by Bhansali or of Maharana Prtap or of Shivaji by Marathas are both wrong. Let us stick to history and not make our own stories. Speech and expression of views in India is bound by Article 19 of the Indian Constitution. It is the current law and will hold till the democratic representatives of the people decide to change it in a constitutional way. What Bhansali is doing affects public order. Like it, OK. Do not like it, make efforts to get it changed. ;)

"Restrictions
Under Indian law, the freedom of speech and of the press do not confer an absolute right to express one's thoughts freely. Clause of Article 19 of the Indian constitution enables the legislature to impose certain restrictions on free speech under following heads:
I. security of the State, II. friendly relations with foreign States, III. public order, IV. decency and morality, V. contempt of court, VI. defamation, VII. incitement to an offence, and VIII. sovereignty and integrity of India."
Freedom of expression in India - Wikipedia
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
.What does Wikipedia know about the incident? The State Minister Azam Khan and one of his deputies were also responsible. It was election time, and it was an engineered riot. The police inaction due to government instruction in the initial stage provoked the Jats. Read the whole story here: http://indiafacts.org/the-real-truth-about-the-muzaffarnagar-riots-part-1/

The fact is that in Muzaffar Nagar and Shamli, Mulims form a very high percentage of population and because of encouragement from the Samajwadi party government were getting bigger than their boots. Therefore, they had it. Now with Yogi at the helm, they will be under control.
Foolish historical concoctions, by Bhansali or of Maharana Prtap or of Shivaji by Marathas are both wrong. Let us stick to history and not make our own stories. Speech and expression of views in India is bound by Article 19 of the Indian Constitution. It is the current law and will hold till the democratic representatives of the people decide to change it in a constitutional way. Like it, OK. Do not like it, make efforts to get it changed. ;)

"Restrictions
Under Indian law, the freedom of speech and of the press do not confer an absolute right to express one's thoughts freely. Clause of Article 19 of the Indian constitution enables the legislature to impose certain restrictions on free speech under following heads:
I. security of the State, II. friendly relations with foreign States, III. public order, IV. decency and morality, V. contempt of court, VI. defamation, VII. incitement to an offence, and VIII. sovereignty and integrity of India."
Freedom of expression in India - Wikipedia
Indeed, there is need to change those so that freedom of speech is put on a much securer foundation. Freedom of speech cannot be curtailed because some group or the other feels offended by it or the state feels it to be threatening in some way. Many laws in India need to be changed in any case (like LGBT laws).
 

Kirran

Premium Member
I don't see why there's such a need to be see these things in black and white terms. One can not support Hindutva without saying that Hindutavadis are fascists or the equivalent of ISIS. Just because someone doesn't support Hindutva doesn't make them a Hinduphobe, and doesn't mean they're saying Hindutva is some "Nazism for Hindus" etc. Personally I think there are very genuine issues behind the rise of Hindutva and there are real concerns which Indian society will need to deal with that are raised by people within the movement. And many proponents which come to power may well benefit Indian society too. But I don't buy into it wholesale by any means despite some sympathies, and wouldn't consider myself a follower.
 

Spirit_Warrior

Active Member
Suppression of opinions and speech and expressions by force for any cause is tyranny and unconditionally immoral.

I disagree. I think there are certain acts of opinion, speech and expression which have to regulated e.g. "Shouting FIRE" in a crowded theatre. I also think certain kinds of literature, say a book like "Jews and their lies" or "Mein Kamph" should simply not be permitted. Recently, Anuraj Kashyap made a movie called "Raman Ramghav" which is an extremely gratuitous and violent movie told from the perspective of a serial killer, it got many critics scratching their head "Why?" What is the need for it in society? In the same vain, misrepresenting historical figures in the past, like portraying a great Hindu warrior like Bajirao as love struck over a Muslim princess so he turns against his own kingdom or portraying a marauding barbarian tyrant that killed tens of thousands of Hindus and sacked their temples, Somanath, as a romantic hero, begs the same question "Why?, What is need for it" It not only does not add value to society, it leaves wrong impressions.

It is fine making a historical and taking cinematic liberties and getting history wrong. It is not fine, making a historical and totally changing history. Like imagine a movie made on Hitler, where Hitler is shown as a sympathiser of the Jews, just how offensive it would be to the Jews. Likewise, it is extremely offensive to the Hindus that an infamous mass murderer of Hindus is being portrayed as a romantic hero.
 

Kirran

Premium Member
I disagree. I think there are certain acts of opinion, speech and expression which have to regulated e.g. "Shouting FIRE" in a crowded theatre. I also think certain kinds of literature, say a book like "Jews and their lies" or "Mein Kamph" should simply not be permitted. Recently, Anuraj Kashyap made a movie called "Raman Ramghav" which is an extremely gratuitous and violent movie told from the perspective of a serial killer, it got many critics scratching their head "Why?" What is the need for it in society? In the same vain, misrepresenting historical figures in the past, like portraying a great Hindu warrior like Bajirao as love struck over a Muslim princess so he turns against his own kingdom or portraying a marauding barbarian tyrant that killed tens of thousands of Hindus and sacked their temples, Somanath, as a romantic hero, begs the same question "Why?, What is need for it" It not only does not add value to society, it leaves wrong impressions.

It is fine making a historical and taking cinematic liberties and getting history wrong. It is not fine, making a historical and totally changing history. Like imagine a movie made on Hitler, where Hitler is shown as a sympathiser of the Jews, just how offensive it would be to the Jews. Likewise, it is extremely offensive to the Hindus that an infamous mass murderer of Hindus is being portrayed as a romantic hero.

These are reasons to object to such portrayals, but not reasons to paternalistically ban them.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I disagree. I think there are certain acts of opinion, speech and expression which have to regulated e.g. "Shouting FIRE" in a crowded theatre. I also think certain kinds of literature, say a book like "Jews and their lies" or "Mein Kamph" should simply not be permitted. Recently, Anuraj Kashyap made a movie called "Raman Ramghav" which is an extremely gratuitous and violent movie told from the perspective of a serial killer, it got many critics scratching their head "Why?" What is the need for it in society? In the same vain, misrepresenting historical figures in the past, like portraying a great Hindu warrior like Bajirao as love struck over a Muslim princess so he turns against his own kingdom or portraying a marauding barbarian tyrant that killed tens of thousands of Hindus and sacked their temples, Somanath, as a romantic hero, begs the same question "Why?, What is need for it" It not only does not add value to society, it leaves wrong impressions.

It is fine making a historical and taking cinematic liberties and getting history wrong. It is not fine, making a historical and totally changing history. Like imagine a movie made on Hitler, where Hitler is shown as a sympathiser of the Jews, just how offensive it would be to the Jews. Likewise, it is extremely offensive to the Hindus that an infamous mass murderer of Hindus is being portrayed as a romantic hero.
There is no equivalency between writing books and expressing opinions in the public square and shouting fire in a crowded theater. Even if somebody makes a heroic portrayal of Hitler or Stalin or expresses opinions of such a nature in speech or movies, such speech is protected as free expression of views, but can be freely criticized with as much severity as one feels necessary. Only direct incitements to violence and clear endangerment of public safety by the speech acts of a person may be prosecuted (like shouting fire or issuing a death fatwa etc.) . There is no right to be not offended by the speech and opinions of others. Also, a Hindu should not be offended by anything, but should point out wrong ideas and wrong views as and when they arise, but abjuring from any violence or coercion as long as the wrong views are themselves expressed without violence. Books with books, speech with speech.

Gita 5:20
One should not rejoice upon attaining what is cherished
Nor should one shudder upon encountering what is uncherished
With firm intellect , undeluded, knowing Brahman
Knowing Brahman, one is established in Brahman

Gita 6:9
He, who is equal minded toward friend, companion and enemy,
Who is neutral among enemies and kinsmen,
And who is impartial among the righteous and also among the evildoers,
Is to be distinguished among men.

As long as my right to freely express my opinions is protected, it is himsa to prevent others from having the same right, no matter how much I disagree with them.
 
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