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Moderates give cover to religious fanatics

lilithu

The Devil's Advocate
`PaWz said:
I believe both Harris' and Dawkins' goal are to convert the on-the-fence religious people who don't take religion too seriously to atheism.
They both agree that the extremists and fundamentalists will not think twice about their message.
Nor will moderate and liberal religionists who are quite happy being religious.

I suppose for fence-sitters who are leaning towards atheism but feel social pressure to be theistic, their message may seem liberating. Asside from grade school, I have never been in an environment where atheism was discouraged - in fact more the opposite - so the only thing I hear from them is their strong disdain for theists. I do feel bad for anyone who is atheist and feels that they can't express that without being marginalized, and I can understand there being resentment. But surely there are other heros to look to?

How about Bill Schulz? Former president of the UUA and former executive director of Amnesty International. He is a life-long humanist, member of the American Humanist Association and one of the signers of the Humanist Manifesto II. Bill is an unabashed non-theist, has openly criticized the traditional Judeo-Christian conception of God, but he's not going around calling all religious people deluded and calling for the end of religion.
 

athanasius

Well-Known Member
`PaWz said:
I wish I was in philosophy class.

Can you tell me a few of the holes you found? I'm just curious.


Here is a section from the paper I wrote. In my opinion dawkins only looks at things one sided.

Here it is a section from my paper:

The question of God's existance has had an enormous impact on huiman beings thougout history. Religions were founded, wars were fought , and even court cases were held to answer such an profound question. Is there a higher intelligent power that created everything out of nothing in a perfect order? Or is the concept of God nothing more than a outdated theory used by ancient religions that has now been disproven by virtue of modern science? This question alone has left numerous philospophers throughout history to ponder and answer the reality of God's estistence.


This paper will discuss arguments both for and against God's esistence from two philosophers coming from different backrounds. Philosophers Blaise Pascal, and Richard Dawkins views will be presented on this topic. I will then present my own views on this subject which have been influenced by St Thomas Aquinas. I will show that belief in God is reasonable and logical. I will present a slight modification of one of Thomas five arguments for God, the need for a first cause. In addition I will also look to miracles backed up by science as fingerprint evidence and critique Dawkins on his Athiestic evolutionary proofs against Intelligent design..................

Dawkins

Richard Dawkins is a philospher who subscribes to Darwins Athiestic evolutionary theory. In his work entitled "The Blind Watchmaker", Dawkins sets out to disprove the theory of Intelligent design which is utilized by theist to explain the creation of the universe. To understand what Dawkins is trying to disprove one must understand the theory of Intelligent design. The theory of intelligent design is the belief that God(a intelligent higher life form) created the universe and everything in it. A typical argument used to explain intelligent design
might be stated as follows. A). If you found a watch in the middle of a desert you would see the complexity of the watch and not just assume that it formed thier from natural chance or by some scientific law alone, rather you would assume that it had a intelligent maker such as Swatch or Gucci. B) Human beings are far more complex than watches. C) Therefore human beings most likely would have a intelligent designer

Dawkins, who has great respect for the theist argument and its defenders, saw a practicle problem with intelligent design . Utilizing Darwins evolutionary theory of natural selection, Dawkins began to realize that intelligent design theory is not necessary to explain the complexity of the human Body or the order in the universe. Science itself can explain these things without bringing in the Superstitious concept of a God. A good example that Dawkins used is the Pebbly Beach. If you looked at a pebbly beach for example you will notice that the larger pebbles seem to be sorted, arragned and selected in different areas than the smaller pebbles. Some primitive religions might believe that Gods or a God arranged these there. They may even make up a myth to explain them, but in reality nothing supernatural has happened at all. No hand of God ever caused theses pebbles to be arranged that way. Rather, what has happened is a purely natural and scientific thing that was caused by the forces of physics. Each pebble of each different size and weight will react to the force of the waves of water in a different way. The bigger pebbles will react differently than the smaller pebbles to the waves and therefore will end up in different places on the beach. This is a simple concept scientifically proven without ever having to rely on the suppressive trappings of religious folklore about a higher being.


Myself

I will argue in favour of the exisitence of God. Many atheist naturally believe that all Theist rely on "Sola Fide" or faith alone to justify thier belief in God. While that may be true for fundamentalist of various denominations, this does not hold for certain sects of theist like Catholics. St Thomas Aquinas, a theologian, scripture scholar, and Philosopher in the middle ages argued that we can know God from reason and logic apart from divine revelation. This is still the teaching of Catholic theology as the Catechsim or offcial teaching of the churchs shows ; "The Church holds and teaches that God, the first principle and last end of all things, can be known with certainty from the created world by the natural light of human reason."

Aquinas used five arguments for the existence of God through reason. I will use only one of his arguments wich I believe is the strongest in refuting athiesic theory. This is the "Need for a first cause" . Everything we know of in the entire material universe is understood or explained by a previous cause. In other words everything made up of matter in our known existence came from a prior cause. I did not cause myself to be or come into exisitence, my parents caused that. My parents did not come into exsitence by themselves, thier parents(my grandparents) caused them to be and so on and so forth. Every Material object in the universe is a product of a long chain of causes. Nothing causes itself to be. Some might argue that the world was caused by the Big bang theory so the theory of God is not needed. There is no problem for a theist to admit that the Big bang theory is possible. However, this does not destroy the probability that God created the universe.

After all what caused the big bang? Some may argue that the big bang was caused by a explosion of gasses and rock. But, if Matter itself, such as rock and gasses cannot cuase themselves to be then who caused them. Why does matter(Rock and gasses) exist at all? Where did they come from? A thiest can believe that God created the universe by the big bang. But who created the matter to make the big bang anyway. It would logically follow that some power outside the material universe created matter. That power must be of a spiritual nature becuase it is outside of the material universe. And that power must be infinite to be able to create something out of absolutly nothing. We are finite creatures, we can create things such as foods and medicines using other things, but we cannot create something out of nothing. No one starts with absolutly nothing and creates a car. You have to have prior material such as metal, plastic etc. Logically to able to make matter out of nothing and to be able to create a extremely complex system like the material universe also shows a sign of intelligence, far more than we have. What do you call something that is Spiritual, intelligent, infinite and causes things to be? We Call it God.

Some may ask "who created God"? The answer is no one created God. God always existed. He is the First cause of everything. Think of it in two ways. You cannot have a series of causes without arrving at a first cause. For example you cannot have a infinitely tall building without a bottom floor. Also remember that everything we know in the "material" universe has a prior cause. God is spiritual not material so he does not need a prior cause. Dawkins tried to disprove intellignet design by saying that creation could be explained by natural selection. Dawkins is right in saying that creation can be explained by natural selection. However, Dawkins is seriously mistaken if he thinks that natural blind selction in any way disproves God's exsitence.

Why couldn't God create the universe using natural blind selection? This the fatal flaw in Dawkins argument. Dawkins assumes blindly that just becuase something can be shown to evolve naturally or scientifically that it disproves the theory of God. But how could science or evolution disprove the theory of God if we know it is only scientifically reasonable and logical to believe in a First cause that is Spiritual, intelligent, and infinite? The answer is simple, the two do not contradict each other at all. If something forms scientfically naturally like pattrerns of pebbles how can we assume that God didn't just form them using natural means. God would be the primary cause and natural selection and evolution would be the secondary cause. God would create things using Natural selction and evolution. It would be like Michealangelo creating a statue. Michaelangeloo is the primary cause of that statue but he uses a chizel to carve it. The chizel would be a secondary cause. The chizel created the statue but it was untimatly created and formed by Michealangelo, the primary cause. Dawkins fallacy is that he only looks to the chizel to explain the statue, he doesn't even consider the artist behind the chizel. What is more logical to look at simple beatiful statue and say a mere chizel created that, or to look at it and say a great artist made that. IN the same way what is more logical and reasonable, looking at the complexity of the universe and its creation(Which is far more beautiful and profound than a statue) and believing that a infinite, intelligent being created it using natural selection, or looking at it and only explaining it in a mere scientific way? Dawkins cannot disprove that God is not behind natural blind selection. Dawkins mere scientific answer does not answer the bigger question of a need for a First cause. Therefore Dawkins theory is a copout. It is not a "either or" question? Either God or nature laws created the unverse. Rather, it is a "both and" situation. God created the unverse using natural laws and evolution.


Well that was it. You may dissagree but that is how I view it. I hope that helps.
 

LogDog

Active Member
athanasius said:
Richard Dawkins is a philospher who subscribes to Darwins Athiestic evolutionary theory.

Dawkins is an ethologist, evolutionary biologist and science writer. Not a philosopher.

What does Darwins theory of evolution have to do with atheism? His scientific observations of the natural world led to a theory that coincidentally contradicted the assumptions of religion. Nothing more. Nothing less. He didn't set out with an agenda to develop a non-theistic answer for "how" and "why."

athanasius said:
It would logically follow that some power outside the material universe created matter. That power must be of a spiritual nature becuase it is outside of the material universe. And that power must be infinite to be able to create something out of absolutly nothing.

Why is this a logical conclusion? Seems like a very complicated hypothesis to explain the unknown. Just because we don't have the answers to these questions, is it reasonable to jump to the conclusion that "god did it?"

athanasius said:
Some may ask "who created God"? The answer is no one created God. God always existed. He is the First cause of everything.

How do you come to this conclusion? Dawkins argues that since the concept of god is complex, it must have been created by something even more complex. Do you have any evidence to support your claim? If not, the entirety of your argument is founded on conjecture and wishful thinking.

athanasius said:
Why couldn't God create the universe using natural blind selection? This the fatal flaw in Dawkins argument. Dawkins assumes blindly that just becuase something can be shown to evolve naturally or scientifically that it disproves the theory of God.

Because he chose to "design" the universe over a seven day period of time and to create man "of dust from the ground." This is the fatal flaw in your argument.

You assume blindly that just because science has not offered what you would consider a reasonable explanation for the "how" and "why" questions that an invisible god is responsible.

athanasius said:
But how could science or evolution disprove the theory of God if we know it is only scientifically reasonable and logical to believe in a First cause that is Spiritual, intelligent, and infinite?

It is reasonable to assume a "first cause," but why does it have to be "spiritual" or "intelligent" in nature? What is it that makes you want to make this leap?

athanasius said:
The answer is simple, the two do not contradict each other at all. If something forms scientfically naturally like pattrerns of pebbles how can we assume that God didn't just form them using natural means.

You can assume whatever you want. But without evidence, your god isn't any more real than Santa Clause, the Flying Spaghetti Monster or Bertrand Russell’s teapot.

athanasius said:
God would be the primary cause and natural selection and evolution would be the secondary cause. God would create things using Natural selction and evolution.

Instead, he snapped his fingers and made it so.

athanasius said:
Dawkins fallacy is that he only looks to the chizel to explain the statue, he doesn't even consider the artist behind the chizel.

Dawkins looks at the natural world and our current scientific understanding of the cosmos (among other things) to conclude that the probability of god’s existence is exceedingly low. He asserts that while it is impossible to prove a negative (i.e. it is impossible to prove that invisible pink unicorns do not really exist), one can show that the existence of god is either very likely or very unlikely—without actually proving or disproving it. Your fallacy is to immediately assume that a god is responsible for everything and that there may not be a more simple and less improbable explanation that is currently unknown to us.

athanasius said:
Dawkins cannot disprove that God is not behind natural blind selection. Dawkins mere scientific answer does not answer the bigger question of a need for a First cause. Therefore Dawkins theory is a copout. It is not a "either or" question? Either God or nature laws created the unverse. Rather, it is a "both and" situation. God created the unverse using natural laws and evolution.

For Dawkins to disprove that your god is behind natural selection assumes that you would be able to prove that your god exists in the first place.

God? A reasonable and logical explanation? Not in my opinion. More like a complex man-made concept lacking evidence to support its validity.
 

des

Active Member
OK, I think I see your point. Maybe not. LOL! There might be some serious topics to discuss. The one point in End of Faith that I liked was the point re: conversational intolerance". Of course, I think Sam Harris took it a bit, ok a way bit beyond this. But we might be able to have a discussion if the subject were not couched in discussions like this:
moderates and liberals are every bit as bad as fanatics, just as stupid and deceived but worse as they are allowing fanatics to florish. (Agnostics are even worse, if that is possible.) Because this is what Harris says, in essence.

If he worded it like this: do moderates or liberals help out fanatics (and I think there is somthing to hsi statement of due to tolerance and so on we allow stuff about stem cell research to go largely unchallenged). I think he'd have a more difficult time wiht something like 9-11. But anyway, how can we go about being tolerant and yet questioning things that are, well for a lack of a better word, ridiculous.

I think he tends to close the door with the extremity of his argument, even though I think he has some things to say. I found his books bigotted and quite the opposite of the welcoming and inclusive liberal religious traditiions I am involved in (UCC, UU).

--des

standing_alone said:
Ugh, am I really making my point this unclear? You have a point when you substitute science for religion - I won't deny you that - what I am trying to say is that we could look at a point Sam Harris makes (for example, moderates cover fanatics) and discuss that without the whole "well, we should just eradicate religion" mentality. We could discuss it based on 1) Do moderates "cover" for fanatics, 2) If no, not much to discuss/If yes, what should be done (eradicatin religion idea dismissed as extreme and unnecessary). What I'm saying is we can use Harris' points as a springing point to discussion while dismissing his conclusion that religion should be eradicated. That's all I'm saying.
 

Stairs In My House

I am protected.
athanasius said:
LogDog said:

I'll never understand why people insist on trying to prove or disprove the existence of god(s), just as I will never understand why people insist on characterizing religious views as rational or irrational. It's like trying to prove/disprove free will, or arguing over whether art is rational.
 

lilithu

The Devil's Advocate
Stairs In My House said:
I'll never understand why people insist on trying to prove or disprove the existence of god(s), just as I will never understand why people insist on characterizing religious views as rational or irrational. It's like trying to prove/disprove free will, or arguing over whether art is rational.
:D Most people, both atheists and theists alike, don't think of religion as akin to art. They think of religion as akin to science. (And as a substitute for science, it is irrational by comparison.) Most (not all) of the people I know who think of religion as akin to art are UUs. :D
 

des

Active Member
Well strictly speaking the word "fundamentalists" can't be applied (it can't even be applied to Islam, strictly speaking, though it is). It means, strictly speaking, the "Fundamentals of faith" a book that described a new school of Christianity that was read the Bible in an inerrant and literalist way. So it can't apply to atheism, but the *behavior* of Harris and Dawkins seem similar in a way of not allowing other points of view, to be always right, to be unquestioning on their views of faith/experience.

--des

MaddLlama said:
Oh, yes, now I remember. Wow, that was a long time ago. I miss lin.
Not to start up that whole debate again, but I don't know if I agree that only people who are religious can be fundamentalists. Really to say that is going by the commonly used context, but that doesn't mean that's the only way the word can be used. Personally I am of the mind that anyone who believes their way is right, and as such they need to work to change everyone elses mind, is a fundamentalist. Though, I guess that's kind of a loose way of using the word.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
lilithu said:
*sigh* I would laugh luna, but from what I can tell Harris, like Dawkins, worships science.
Harris is a philosopher, not a scientist. He has no degrees in science. Although he pursuing a doctorate, he only has an art degree, again in philosopher.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
And they really are brilliant. The first time that I heard him speak about religion, I was surprised by his condescending attitude towards people of faith.
Religion is to blame for the 9/11 attack....Well, partly to blame.

The other parts are political, partly cultural (Arabic-ness) or social, but wholly fanaticism. Religion, which in this case, Islam, is one of many factors that contribute dto the attack.
 

lilithu

The Devil's Advocate
gnostic said:
Harris is a philosopher, not a scientist. He has no degrees in science. Although he pursuing a doctorate, he only has an art degree, again in philosopher.
I didn't say he was a scientist. I said he worships science.
 

lilithu

The Devil's Advocate
gnostic said:
Religion is to blame for the 9/11 attack....Well, partly to blame.

The other parts are political, partly cultural (Arabic-ness) or social, but wholly fanaticism. Religion, which in this case, Islam, is one of many factors that contribute dto the attack.
The first time I heard Dawkins denigrate religion it was well before Sept 11th, so Sept 11th is not the reason for his antipathy. It merely strengthened it.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Lilithu said:
I didn't say he was a scientist. I said he worships science.
Any philosopher can mouth all sort of garbage, whether for or against science, or for or against religion. Until he has real science background I still wouldn't take him seriously if he did worship science, because he is a cranky philosopher.
 

robtex

Veteran Member
I just want to make a small point to this thread. The article in the OP is likely from his book, or related to his book, "Letter to a Christian Nation" which is 99 pages from my understanding. I haven't read the book but, what is keeping me from commenting on Harris thoughts, is I feel they are incomplete and hard to put into context without the other 98 or at least a large portion of those pages.
 

lilithu

The Devil's Advocate
gnostic said:
Any philosopher can mouth all sort of garbage, whether for or against science, or for or against religion. Until he has real science background I still wouldn't take him seriously if he did worship science, because he is a cranky philosopher.
I wasn't arguing that we should take him seriously. If anything the opposite. For me, worshipping science is not a good thing.
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
Both Dawkins and Harris are philosophers and their understanding of science has little to do with their outlook on religion.

MOST theists do not see evolution or a belief in science as contraindicated by their faith. Those so inclined as to present such science as a proof AGAINST any belief in God need to rethink their position.
 

UnTheist

Well-Known Member
Scuba Pete said:
Those so inclined as to present such science as a proof AGAINST any belief in God need to rethink their position.
You can't prove the Non-existence of something.
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
`PaWz said:
You can't prove the Non-existence of something.
You missed the point. According to Harris and logdog, science is the antithesis of religion. IOW, Science disproves religion. It makes no such claim.
 

UnTheist

Well-Known Member
Scuba Pete said:
You missed the point. According to Harris and logdog, science is the antithesis of religion. IOW, Science disproves religion. It makes no such claim.
I got the point just fine. I agree that science cannot disprove religion, and never claimed it could
 

dogsgod

Well-Known Member
Moderates do give cover. Religious fanatics hold the same basic beliefs shared by moderates starting with a belief in God. This allows them to blend into society making it difficult to recognise a lunatic when you see one. Not that all religious fanatics are dangerous, but we might not be so inclined to vote in those that wish to lead a Christian Crusade to the middle east for example.
 
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