I'm not sure about Islams Prophet, but Jesus was known widely for His miracles, i.e., if you believe they actually happened. Do miracles still occur today? I mean I have seen charlatans on television pretending to heal the sick and asking for your donations, do miracles actually occur today?
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Modern day Miracles
- Thread starter Genna
- Start date
doppelganger
Through the Looking Glass
Genna said:
My understanding of "miracles" is that they are "events I experience for which I do not or cannot understand or discern a cause." As such, "miracles" happen around me all the time.
Are they the doings of "supernatural beings," "godlike powers," or objectified concepts from my imagination? I don't know with complete certainly, but I think it's reasonable for me to say "probably not."
In the name of God the most gracious, the most merciful.
My understanding of a miracle is anything that cannot be explained through natural process.
There are many miracles I could mention, but I'll stick with one, the well of Zamzam. If you want to find more miracles, just google the miracles of the Qur'an.
As for the well of Zamzam, it's a well in Makkah, close to the Kabbah, according to Islamic sources, as well as Genesis 21:17-19 and Psalms 84, Zamzam was dug up when Prophet Abraham (peace and blessings be upon him) left Haggar and their baby boy, prophet Ishmael (PBUH) in the middle of the dessert, fulfilling God's command, and while Haggar was there, she ran out of food and water and had to look for help, she left her baby and ran up and down near by hills until suddenly she saw a little well of water next to her baby. Arab tribes started gathering around this well and eventually the city Bakkah (now Makkah) was formed and Abraham and his son Ishamel built the Kabbah as a command from God. Until this day, even though all wells around Makkah have dried up, the well of Zamzam remains, as a sign of God's mercy upon mankind.
Say, "O My servants who have transgressed against themselves [by sinning], do not despair of the mercy of Allah. Indeed, Allah forgives all sins. Indeed, it is He who is the Forgiving, the Merciful." (Qur'an 39:53)
My understanding of a miracle is anything that cannot be explained through natural process.
There are many miracles I could mention, but I'll stick with one, the well of Zamzam. If you want to find more miracles, just google the miracles of the Qur'an.
As for the well of Zamzam, it's a well in Makkah, close to the Kabbah, according to Islamic sources, as well as Genesis 21:17-19 and Psalms 84, Zamzam was dug up when Prophet Abraham (peace and blessings be upon him) left Haggar and their baby boy, prophet Ishmael (PBUH) in the middle of the dessert, fulfilling God's command, and while Haggar was there, she ran out of food and water and had to look for help, she left her baby and ran up and down near by hills until suddenly she saw a little well of water next to her baby. Arab tribes started gathering around this well and eventually the city Bakkah (now Makkah) was formed and Abraham and his son Ishamel built the Kabbah as a command from God. Until this day, even though all wells around Makkah have dried up, the well of Zamzam remains, as a sign of God's mercy upon mankind.
Say, "O My servants who have transgressed against themselves [by sinning], do not despair of the mercy of Allah. Indeed, Allah forgives all sins. Indeed, it is He who is the Forgiving, the Merciful." (Qur'an 39:53)
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
Didn't they actually rebuild the site which was originally dedicated to a triple Goddess, as also the meteorite?
oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
Hi ! Yes!
A perpetual miracle..... everything. A statue that can heal if touched is not bad for an example. Or a ray of light shining down with huge voice sending a message ..... would be impressive.
But to think that all those atoms somehow came together as molecules, which formed chains, which make me, who can think, move about, have some freedom ....... well........ that's just such a privilege. And such a miracle. And you as well!
Green Kepi
Active Member
Miracles were performed: (1) as an evidence of divine power; (2) to produce faith; (3) to confirm the word spoken. None of these reasons for the working of miracles will fit the men or women who claim to be working miracles today. Now...only God produces the miracles....
Yes I believe real miracles occur today. And charlatans also occur today.
Kilgore Trout
Misanthropic Humanist
Indeed. At a ratio of about 0 to a billion.
I've never gotten why miracles are import for people to believe the message of some religion. At the risk of sounding crude, why does God need a dog and pony show to get someone's attention? Isn't the message itself enough?
As far as miracles at anytime, I believe there are things we don't understand, or are simply imperceptive of that appear as miracles, but are really just the way things are. In other words, they are outside someone's normal perceptual state, and every now and then you aware and it appears supernatural. All of existence is that miracle.
As far as miracles at anytime, I believe there are things we don't understand, or are simply imperceptive of that appear as miracles, but are really just the way things are. In other words, they are outside someone's normal perceptual state, and every now and then you aware and it appears supernatural. All of existence is that miracle.
Koldo
Outstanding Member
Supernatural evidence is expected for supernatural claims.
Well, if it was supernatural evidence, you would need supernatural means to read it.
My point is if you strip away the dog and pony show theatrics, isn't there a core message that stands without it? And if not, why can't it stand on it's own, if it is a truth of God?
What is 'supernatural evidence'?
True. But miracles are useful in getting initial attention.
One Hindu miracle worker and guru that I've studied refers to his miracles as his 'calling card'. Many people become interested in gaining from miracles/healings and from that learn what the guru really wants to give them; spiritual teachings.
If there were not miraculous/supernatural stories surrounding Jesus, do you think we would even know about him today? And would we know his messages of forgiveness and brotherly love?
Would we believe the 'natural' world was all that is without any signs of the supernatural?
But I would argue for the wrong reasons. Those that are attracted to that, how many are really interested in going beyond? Why start with the sensational as a hook to lead you ultimately to simplicity? I'm simply saying that the "wow!" factor is a contradiction to the subtle nature of what divine truth is. Right?
I don't know. What percentage? And might that not be an excuse for the whole miracle-Max business?
Well, the mass-marketing consumerist machine is a vehicle to be sure. Every now and then an artist, unbelievably, emerges out of the incessant steam of lowest common denominator wannabes making a buck who appeal to the 'common' palate. What you speak of here is a tricky balancing act.
It works basically like this. A true visionary, an artist, a prophet, a messiah, has a message that breaks the mold, shoves his finger right into the machine and says 'you're messed up'. It resonates with people, it catches on; it spreads to the mass-populous. In order to sell it to the mass market, the reduce it to least common denominator - those that need sensation to get their attention, viz, miracles.
So I suppose one could argue that higher truth exists in culture at large because buried deep within it is a subtle truth that those who see miracles as 'fluff' and sensationalist marketing garbage that misses the point, because it was given a ride on top of this beast, but I don't think personally that's any actual sort of plan. Is it deliberate to bring a higher truth on the back of a dog and pony show? I'm not convinced.
The signs of the supernatural as I would understand it are not external. There are deep impressions, drawing from within opening the mind beyond the apparent. That, is the real miracle. Not some making a tree fly into the air, walking on water, making a spring out of dry ground, or some such trite affair.
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Partially right. The ‘hook’ leads some people to listen to the deeper aspects the teachers are really interested in delivering. Without the ‘hook’ not much attention at all would be generated among the masses.
I think a lot of people have their beliefs bolstered or kick-started by stories of the miraculous. I for one needed to hear supernatural stories to know their was anything worth learning more about. I’m not familiar with the term ‘miracle-Max business’.
Koldo
Outstanding Member
A supernatural event.
Koldo
Outstanding Member
Well, if it was supernatural evidence, you would need supernatural means to read it.
Not really. On most so called miracles it isn't hard to understand what happened. They tend to be pretty simple on this point.
There is. And it can ( assuming it is the truth of God ). But people are more prone to lend their ears if they witness a miracle. It is as simple as providing evidence.
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I think you raise good points and I'll accept them. I can see what you mean here.
I think the difficulty for me is my own personal experience, how this opened to me and what I was later subsequently exposed to. What opened me to the divine myself was what people call supernatural. Time stood still, the heavens opened, white light of infinite depth, looking into a infinity within a sliver of infinity beyond and beyond, infinite mind, infinite truth, infinite compassion, etc. That's what tore the world open for me when I was 18 and I've been on that path since.
I later joined a religion in that youth to find structural support for understanding this, and they were all into the charismatic miracle stuff, which to me I ultimately found dysfunctional as they never moved beyond those, like those were validation of a vastly deeper reality they weren't moving into. And since it was validation to them, like any good skeptic will point out they comprised largely of things like confirmation bias, self-fulfilled prophecies, cognitive dissonance, etc. So to me, I saw them become a distraction, a red-herring if you will, away from that subtle light, the deep, the divine. In other words, miracles can be a substitute for God, ever substituting the sensation of the sweets for the hard medicine to heal the body. Like constantly seeking experience rather than depth. Wave jumpers. It's a type of spiritual avoidance.
But I appreciate you sharing this from your point of view. I accept this as something way beyond the ordinary got my attention too!
Oh, it was a funny reference I'll pulled out of my memory referencing a character in the movie The Princess Bride. Miracle Max - Princess Bride Wiki
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BruceDLimber
Well-Known Member
Precisely why the Baha'i Faith, although it recognizes that miracles do exist, disparages their importance and forbids using them as "proofs" when teaching!
I quote the Baha'i scriptures:
Chapter 22: MIRACLES
Question.It is recorded that miracles were performed by Christ. Are the reports of these miracles really to be accepted literally, or have they another meaning? It has been proved by exact science that the essence of things does not change, and that all beings are under one universal law and organization from which they cannot deviate; and, therefore, that which is contrary to universal law is impossible.
Answer.The Holy Manifestations are the sources of miracles and the originators of wonderful signs. For Them, any difficult and impracticable thing is possible and easy. For through a supernatural power wonders appear from Them; and by this power, which is beyond nature, They influence the world of nature. From all the Manifestations marvelous things have appeared.
But in the Holy Books an especial terminology is employed, and for the Manifestations these miracles and wonderful signs have no importance. They do not even wish to mention them. For if we consider miracles a great proof, they are still only proofs and arguments for those who are present when they are performed, and not for those who are absent.
For example, if we relate to a seeker, a stranger to Moses and Christ, marvelous signs, he will deny them and will say: Wonderful signs are also continually related of false gods by the testimony of many people, and they are affirmed in the Books. The Brahmans have written a book about wonderful prodigies from Brahma. He will also say: How can we know that the Jews and the Christians speak the truth, and that the Brahmans tell a lie? For both are generally admitted traditions, which are collected in books, and may be supposed to be true or false. The same may be said of other religions: if one is true, all are true; if one is accepted, all must be accepted. Therefore, miracles are not a proof. For if they are proofs for those who are present, they fail as proofs to those who are absent.
But in the day of the Manifestation the people with insight see that all the conditions of the Manifestation are miracles, for They are superior to all others, and this alone is an absolute miracle. Recollect that Christ, solitary and alone, without a helper or protector, without armies and legions, and under the greatest oppression, uplifted the standard of God before all the people of the world, and withstood them, and finally conquered all, although outwardly He was crucified. Now this is a veritable miracle which can never be denied. There is no need of any other proof of the truth of Christ.
The outward miracles have no importance for the people of Reality. If a blind man receives sight, for example, he will finally again become sightless, for he will die and be deprived of all his senses and powers. Therefore, causing the blind man to see is comparatively of little importance, for this faculty of sight will at last disappear. If the body of a dead person be resuscitated, of what use is it since the body will die again? But it is important to give perception and eternal lifethat is, the spiritual and divine life. For this physical life is not immortal, and its existence is equivalent to nonexistence. So it is that Christ said to one of His disciples: Let the dead bury their dead; for That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.[1]http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/SAQ/saq-22.html#fn1#fn1
Observe: those who in appearance were physically alive, Christ considered dead; for life is the eternal life, and existence is the real existence. Wherever in the Holy Books they speak of raising the dead, the meaning is that the dead were blessed by eternal life; where it is said that the blind received sight, the signification is that he obtained the true perception; where it is said a deaf man received hearing, the meaning is that he acquired spiritual and heavenly hearing. This is ascertained from the text of the Gospel where Christ said: These are like those of whom Isaiah said, They have eyes and see not, they have ears and hear not; and I healed them.[2]
The meaning is not that the Manifestations are unable to perform miracles, for They have all power. But for Them inner sight, spiritual healing and eternal life are the valuable and important things. Consequently, whenever it is recorded in the Holy Books that such a one was blind and recovered his sight, the meaning is that he was inwardly blind, and that he obtained spiritual vision, or that he was ignorant and became wise, or that he was negligent and became heedful, or that he was worldly and became heavenly.
As this inner sight, hearing, life and healing are eternal, they are of importance. What, comparatively, is the importance, the value and the worth of this animal life with its powers? In a few days it will cease like fleeting thoughts. For example, if one relights an extinguished lamp, it will again become extinguished; but the light of the sun is always luminous. This is of importance.
Some Answered Questions, pp. 100-102
[1] Matthew 8:22; John 3:6.
[2] Cf. Matthew 13:14 and John 12:40-41.
Peace,
Bruce