"Modernisation, yes; Westernisation, no."

[YmirGF]

Actually I would argue that it's Westerners who want that.

You could try. Being the ones who developed most of the technological advances that we now enjoy might ring a bit hollow.

 

[MD]

You could try. Being the ones who developed most of the technological advances that we now enjoy might ring a bit hollow.

Technological advances are built off earlier advances. Western science built off Arabic science which built off Indian and Chinese science. Scientific development isn't necessarily tied to culture, although it can help. When China takes over the U.S. in terms of scientific output (it's 2nd in the world today), no one will claim that China developed everything. Also a lot of people in scientific research today are non Western Jews, Indians, Iranians and Chinese. Several STEM field positions are filled up by Easterners. I think the co founders of Hotmail and Facebook were also Indian. Given the low birth rates here, the scientific outputs will definitely fall in the West over the coming decades. Other countries will pick up the slack.

Modernization doesn't necessarily have to follow a Western model. Also how do you define Western? I live in the West and I bring my values to the country I live in. Millions of people do as well. The Western Americas will change from Western Europe this century. In fact I will argue that Europe will have a large and substantial Islamic minority in 100 years, who will change its culture forever (a substantial portion of the world will also have this). As the West exports its values to the 3rd world, we bring our values to the West. Values which ensure continuity.

The birth rates and family structures in the West have fallen really fast. The idea of marriage is crumbling, divorce laws are extremely anti male. This results in needing immigration from other countries, some of whom have also started to have very low birth rates (East Asia). If every country follows the Western model, then where will their immigrants come from? You cannot have the continuation of a culture without children and structures which maintain these children. Such a culture will collapse.

If you push the idea that families are bad, anti tradition, anti religion, you want high productivity, high consumption, individual rights as well as continuity of culture...well that IS the definition of wanting your cake and having it too.

 

[McBell]

Actually I would argue that it's Westerners who want that.

interesting how you would indirectly imply that those on "your" side are hypocrites....

 

[MD]

interesting how you would indirectly imply that those on "your" side are hypocrites....

What are you talking about?

 

[McBell]

What are you talking about?

seriously?
You want your cake and eat it too, which is the very thing you are whining about "Westernization"....

Thus far it appears you have nothing against "Westernization", you just prefer to call it "Modernization".

 

[MD]

seriously?
You want your cake and eat it too, which is the very thing you are whining about "Westernization"....

Thus far it appears you have nothing against "Westernization", you just prefer to call it "Modernization".

The two aren't bound to each other, that's a mistake you are making. Modernization doesn't necessarily equate to destroying all social traditions and that's my point.

Besides as more immigrants from the rest of the world come to the Americas and Australia, I'm not sure if it would even be called 'Western' anymore. Australia would fall under the Asian sphere and the Americas will become a unique culture on its own.

 

[McBell]

The two aren't bound to each other, that's a mistake you are making. Modernization doesn't necessarily equate to destroying all social traditions and that's my point.

Besides as more immigrants from the rest of the world come to the Americas and Australia, I'm not sure if it would even be called 'Western' anymore. Australia would fall under the Asian sphere and the Americas will become a unique culture on its own.

Except I am basing your hypocrisy on your posts in this very thread.

You do not appear to have any problems with "westernization" other than it being called "westerniaztion".

Now if the picture you painted with your posts in this thread is not the same picture you have in your mind......

 

[Sapiens]

Modernization is inevitable and is mandatory.
In my opinion, the western nations have contributed the most to some of the worst atrocities thay still bares its scars to this day.

Britain and France's greed causing the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, British raj causing the division and conflict in India and Pakistan, America's war mongering and backstabbing other nations to get more money, Portuguese and Islamic regimes in India, making Hinduism and Sikhism into radical forms (Buddhism in Burma).
The west even imported their worst prejudices to the world. America is still importing homophobia to Africa.
(Granted every culture had barbaric laws and rituals at some point).

So, that's what most find threatening and also to mention the large chunks of money being taken by the west from other parts of the world.

So, though in the past, I was in strong support of westernization, today I only prefer in modernization and reviving individualization.
Westernization shouldnt simply be given the untouchable treatment, but just put an eye on it.

Oh come on ... our atrocities were no better or worse than any others. Atrocities are atrocities

Britain and France's greed causing the Israeli-Palestinian conflict - Naw, contributed to, maybe, but caused? No way. If you want a proximate cause, look more the Grand Mullah of Jerusalem, if you want an ultimate cause ... well, at the start of recorded history Israel belonged to the Jews ... before that, who knows?

British raj causing the division and conflict in India and Pakistan. - Hmm, so now we have three nations instead of almost 600 small kingdoms. Where lies division and conflict?

Portuguese and Islamic regimes in India, making Hinduism and Sikhism into radical forms. - So it's their fault some part of the Hindus and Sikhs went bad? No blame on the Hindus and Sikhs?

The west even imported their worst prejudices to the world. America is still importing homophobia to Africa.
(Granted every culture had barbaric laws and rituals at some point). - I'd say that most of our worst prejudices were imported to the west from the middle east.

So, that's what most find threatening and also to mention the large chunks of money being taken by the west from other parts of the world. - Ah ... finally we get to the root matter, you want more money and greedy westerners beat you to it.

So, though in the past, I was in strong support of westernization, today I only prefer in modernization and reviving individualization.
Westernization shouldnt simply be given the untouchable treatment, but just put an eye on it.[/QUOTE] - modernization and individualization are the hallmarks of the west.

 

[Subhankar Zac]

Oh come on ... our atrocities were no better or worse than an others. Atrocities are atrocities

Britain and France's greed causing the Israeli-Palestinian conflict - Naw, contributed to, maybe, but caused? No way. If you want a proximate cause, look more the Grand Mullah of Jerusalem, if you want an ultimate cause ... well, at the start of recorded history Israel belonged to the Jews ... before that, who knows?

British raj causing the division and conflict in India and Pakistan. - Hmm, so now we have three nations instead of almost 600 small kingdoms. Where lies division and conflict?

Portuguese and Islamic regimes in India, making Hinduism and Sikhism into radical forms. - So it's their fault some part of the Hindus and Sikhs went bad? No blame on the Hindus and Sikhs?

The west even imported their worst prejudices to the world. America is still importing homophobia to Africa.
(Granted every culture had barbaric laws and rituals at some point). - I'd say that most of our worst prejudices were imported to the west from the middle east.

So, that's what most find threatening and also to mention the large chunks of money being taken by the west from other parts of the world. - Ah ... finally we get to the root matter, you want more money and greedy westerners beat you to it.

So, though in the past, I was in strong support of westernization, today I only prefer in modernization and reviving individualization.
Westernization shouldnt simply be given the untouchable treatment, but just put an eye on it.

- modernization and individualization are the hallmarks of the west.[/QUOTE]


Firstly a grand applause for the contentment of the centuries of atrocities by the on the globe.
And no, western atrocities ruined the Asian nations. The barbarians of the west like Britain, France and the modern father of terrorism America are the prime factors behind most major conflicts, no matter how much you try and blame the victims.

When India was divided into a hundred + kingdoms (try not to exaggerate to keep the crimes of the west at bay) but war crimes were very rare. Much of it was simply to protext one's kingdoms from domination of other Hindu kings.
While the British simply came, enslaved people with the EIC and later simply took over the law, starring a string of attacks over Hindus, Sikhs and Buddhists, not to mention racism.
Stealing the wealth of the India is one of the crimes of the Brits too along with Jalianwala, Bengal famine, etc.
But blame everyone but the British terrorists.

After the Islamic regime began to steal and plunder the wealth of India by Ghazni, Hinduism began to become more theistic, further moulded into conservatism by the Brits.
Never did Hindus or Sikhs had the need to invade other nations and burn people who followed other religions... That's only the European barbarians.

And again, whining blame for the west being bullied when they are denied to take the blood of innocent children or rape young Iraqi teenagers.
Bravo! Truly, the west is highly oppressed.

Even English being my second language, I don't feel the need to divert the entire context when I have no defense.
The poor west... Bullied since they were forced to stop taking resources off of other nations.

Barbarism, inquisition, colonialism, religious wars, slavery (while indian caste system only had servants, never slaves), hatred based on color and the worst prejudices are the hallmarks of the west.
And individualism flourished in the harapan civilizations and indian legends dictate it, long before the west took shape.
Modernization is the enemy of the west... South Asia is the hallmark of it, before the west destroyed it just like most of the other things in the world.

 

[atanu]

A very astute analysis. So, in essence, they want their cake and eat it too.

Ha. Ha. As if I or you do not want that.

 

[YmirGF]

Ha. Ha. As if I or you do not want that.

The difference is that we have control on what cake they can get. I'm leaning toward the Star Trek "non-interference" directive. Let them wallow in their own juices.

 

[atanu]

The difference is that we have control on what cake they can get. I'm leaning toward the Star Trek "non-interference" directive. Let them wallow in their own juices.

Ha ha. These fantasies have created spoiled brats.

 

[Sapiens]

- modernization and individualization are the hallmarks of the west

Firstly a grand applause for the contentment of the centuries of atrocities by the on the globe.
And no, western atrocities ruined the Asian nations. The barbarians of the west like Britain, France and the modern father of terrorism America are the prime factors behind most major conflicts, no matter how much you try and blame the victims.

When India was divided into a hundred + kingdoms (try not to exaggerate to keep the crimes of the west at bay) but war crimes were very rare. Much of it was simply to protext one's kingdoms from domination of other Hindu kings.
While the British simply came, enslaved people with the EIC and later simply took over the law, starring a string of attacks over Hindus, Sikhs and Buddhists, not to mention racism.
Stealing the wealth of the India is one of the crimes of the Brits too along with Jalianwala, Bengal famine, etc.
But blame everyone but the British terrorists.

After the Islamic regime began to steal and plunder the wealth of India by Ghazni, Hinduism began to become more theistic, further moulded into conservatism by the Brits.
Never did Hindus or Sikhs had the need to invade other nations and burn people who followed other religions... That's only the European barbarians.

And again, whining blame for the west being bullied when they are denied to take the blood of innocent children or rape young Iraqi teenagers.
Bravo! Truly, the west is highly oppressed.

Even English being my second language, I don't feel the need to divert the entire context when I have no defense.
The poor west... Bullied since they were forced to stop taking resources off of other nations.

Barbarism, inquisition, colonialism, religious wars, slavery (while indian caste system only had servants, never slaves), hatred based on color and the worst prejudices are the hallmarks of the west.
And individualism flourished in the harapan civilizations and indian legends dictate it, long before the west took shape.
Modernization is the enemy of the west... South Asia is the hallmark of it, before the west destroyed it just like most of the other things in the world.

What a load of BS. I've often heard the Hindu claim of "no slavery" but it simply is not true. It is a bald faced lie. And we must add to that the caste system and untouchability ... as bad or worse than anything in the west. People are pretty much people and to pretend that one people has a more moral stance than another from the beginning of time to the present is patent idiocy. You sound very angry, but I can understand that, in the last round you were part of the losers ... I'd feel the same way, and there will likely come a time when the west will no longer win and the east will, once again rise. That is the way of things. Remember that Genghis Kahn was not halted by European power, he turned around and went home when he saw that the Westerners were so primitive that they had nothing that he wanted. Turn, turn, turn.

 

[Subhankar Zac]

What a load of BS. I've often heard the Hindu claim of "no slavery" but it simply is not true. It is a bald faced lie. And we must add to that the caste system and untouchability ... as bad or worse than anything in the west. People are pretty much people and to pretend that one people has a more moral stance than another from the beginning of time to the present is patent idiocy. You sound very angry, but I can understand that, in the last round you were part of the losers ... I'd feel the same way, and there will likely come a time when the west will no longer win and the east will, once again rise. That is the way of things. Remember that Genghis Kahn was not halted by European power, he turned around and went home when he saw that the Westerners were so primitive that they had nothing that he wanted. Turn, turn, turn.

America sold weapons to Pakistan to use them against India. It's because of Russia's assistance Pakistan's invasion to Kashmir was stopped.
No Hindu ever went to other nations burning people, torturing and burning villages of those other religions.
No Hindu ever felt tge need to slaughter Jews and even Muslims and Hindus who remained in India peacefully.
No Hindu ever had the need to import people of other nations as slaves because of the skin color and treat them like animals.

Trying to glorify murderers and the true founding fathers of al-Qaeda, ISIS, Hindu fanatic groups and weapon sellers might be your value, but I can't support such.
And do show me evidence of Hindu caste system accepting slaves.

 

[Treks]

The past is a relevant example. Portuguese and British laws moulding India into a conservative nation with Islam making most Hindu religions and Sikhism into taking up weapons for the sake of religion.
Also the west is either this or that, it has topick one or tge other sides while indian, Chinese, south Asian traditions keep an open option.

Are you saying that Islam is Western, or that you would classify it as a "Western culture"? Sikhs took up weapons to protect India against invading Moghuls/Turks. So I'm not sure your rage is well place in at least this regard.

 

[Treks]

So, we can summarise that the aspects of Western culture that non-Western cultures do not like and find threatening are:

• Individualism (a social theory favouring freedom of action for individuals over collective or state control.)
• Divorce
• Collapse of the family unity (@MD, can you clarify what this look like, please, apart from "families are bad"?)
• Loss of tradition, ritual and traditional values (@MD, do you mean to observe these losses within Western culture, or do you mean that non-Western cultures are fearful of losing their own traditions, rituals and traditional values?)
• Atheism (already present in some Eastern religions)
• Secularism
• Bars
• Loud music
• Drinking
• Dancing
• Revealing clothes in case of women
• Remaining out at late hours
• Sex without marriage
• Marriages outside the social norm (i.e. homosexuality) (although Subhankar Zac says that America is importing homophobia to other countries - so which is it?)
• Bitterness on the part of non-Western countries for real or perceived problems that Western nations have caused in history and currently.

@LuisDantas , I suppose your comment "Westernisation as a word has barely any meaning" is why I've started this thread. I've been around Indians long enough, at least, to hear so much angst against "The West" and "Westerners" that I'd like to know more about just what it is that people mean when they hate on The Satan Western Culture.

And I've always wondered; if hating on western culture = racism?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Technological advances are built off earlier advances. Western science built off Arabic science which built off Indian and Chinese science. Scientific development isn't necessarily tied to culture, although it can help. When China takes over the U.S. in terms of scientific output (it's 2nd in the world today), no one will claim that China developed everything. Also a lot of people in scientific research today are non Western Jews, Indians, Iranians and Chinese. Several STEM field positions are filled up by Easterners. I think the co founders of Hotmail and Facebook were also Indian. Given the low birth rates here, the scientific outputs will definitely fall in the West over the coming decades. Other countries will pick up the slack.

Modernization doesn't necessarily have to follow a Western model. Also how do you define Western? I live in the West and I bring my values to the country I live in. Millions of people do as well. The Western Americas will change from Western Europe this century. In fact I will argue that Europe will have a large and substantial Islamic minority in 100 years, who will change its culture forever (a substantial portion of the world will also have this). As the West exports its values to the 3rd world, we bring our values to the West. Values which ensure continuity.

The birth rates and family structures in the West have fallen really fast. The idea of marriage is crumbling, divorce laws are extremely anti male. This results in needing immigration from other countries, some of whom have also started to have very low birth rates (East Asia). If every country follows the Western model, then where will their immigrants come from? You cannot have the continuation of a culture without children and structures which maintain these children. Such a culture will collapse.

If you push the idea that families are bad, anti tradition, anti religion, you want high productivity, high consumption, individual rights as well as continuity of culture...well that IS the definition of wanting your cake and having it too.

The birthrate is projected to drop all over the world, including in Africa, the Middle East, Latin America and Southeast Asia. It's already dropped in those places to an extent. Most of the world is at below replacement level birthrates Low birthrates are correlated with increased access to education and contraceptives for girls and women. Most women don't opt to be broodmares when offered a choice. The global birthrate needs to drop, anyway. It doesn't mean whole societies are going to disappear, just that there will be less people and the system will have to adjust for that.

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2015/11/the-relationship-between-womens-education-and-fertility/

So this is actually a very good thing. You'll have more people in the workforce, greater productivity, a smaller population (less of a burden on social services), less poverty and health will be better all around. This in mind, governments all over the world have an obligation to promote education for all, increase access to it, provide contraceptive services and to combat child marriage and teen girls marrying (or being forced into marriage, as is usually the case), polygamy, having kids and dropping out of school. That sort of stuff is part of the root of the turmoil the world is going through in the first place.

http://grist.org/population/2011-05-12-education-leads-to-lower-fertility-and-increased-prosperity/

As for immigrants, their children will assimilate more and more into their new culture, like immigrants have always done. They will add their influence to the cultural mix, but it will be modified, as always happens. There used to be Irish, German, Russian, Italian, etc. ghettos in America, but those aren't really a big thing anymore because they've largely blended into society at large. Look at Indian British and black British people. It's the same with them. Their families came to the UK decades ago and now they've pretty much blended into British culture. There are still problems, but it's gotten better over time. For example, black immigrants to the UK inspired subcultures such as the British soul movement and the skinhead scene back in the '60s. There's always conflicts when different groups first encounter each other but eventually it mostly works out and they learn to live together.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

• Individualism (a social theory favouring freedom of action for individuals over collective or state control.)

• Divorce

• Collapse of the family unity ( @MD, can you clarify what this look like, please, apart from "families are bad"?)

• Loss of tradition, ritual and traditional values ( @MD, do you mean to observe these losses within Western culture, or do you mean that non-Western cultures are fearful of losing their own traditions, rituals and traditional values?)

• Atheism (already present in some Eastern religions)

• Secularism

• Bars

• Loud music

• Drinking

• Dancing

• Revealing clothes in case of women

• Remaining out at late hours

• Sex without marriage

• Marriages outside the social norm (i.e. homosexuality) (although Subhankar Zac says that America is importing homophobia to other countries - so which is it?)

• Bitterness on the part of non-Western countries for real or perceived problems that Western nations have caused in history and currently.

Very unfortunate, because most of the things on that list aren't a problem, "bad" or "wrong", imo.

 

[Aupmanyav]

@Shubhankar Zac: Hey, Shubhankar, do not hold it in your heart. It is a new day. We have to go very far.

So it's their fault some part of the Hindus and Sikhs went bad? No blame on the Hindus and Sikhs?

In what way Hindus and Sikhs went bad?

Ah ... finally we get to the root matter, you want more money and greedy westerners beat you to it.

Don't worry, in time we will balance the scales. Analysts say Indian economy will overtake that of US by 2050 and we will be second after China.

 

[Subhankar Zac]

Are you saying that Islam is Western, or that you would classify it as a "Western culture"? Sikhs took up weapons to protect India against invading Moghuls/Turks. So I'm not sure your rage is well place in at least this regard.

And yet you remain silent in centuries of discrimination in colonialism, forcing indian soldiers to fight the wars of Britain, Portuguese atrocities in Goa and even on a global scale in other nations.
How many Hindus, Buddhists or Sikhs went to the west, bironing and slaughtering people to steal their wealth?