modesty and self control

[jazzymom]

I found this on the internet and am wondering what others think of these glasses.

Further question is why cannot men have control over their urges without glasses, separation etc.....

I have 2 sons and we have had many conversations about modesty and behavior and the fact that they are in control of their behavior.

Why do Haradim / Orthodox feel that their self control is not under their control and they need to have separation and now glasses in order to have self control.


For Orthodox Jewish Men: Glasses That Blur Women - Lenses help keep Israeli females out of sight and temptation

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I found this on the internet and am wondering what others think of these glasses.

Really ...

 

[jazzymom]

Really ...

Yes really.......:faint: :thud:

 

[Caladan]

I'm not sure we have an informative opinion simply because all of us seem to be completely detached from Haredi thought.
These type of Haredi people are like aliens to me.
I'm more interested by their load on the Israeli society and economy. Modesty glasses? that's small change.

 

[punkdbass]

I might be wrong but this sounds like it be pretty damaging to your eyesight if used regularly lol

 

[Rakhel]

Yeah I've seen them. I have even seen the one that advertised the blinders that went with it. I have seen the rather nasty comments about how to use said glasses. and much, much more that would make one's head spin from the craziness.
Things are getting rather crazy in that part of the Jewish world. I just hope that some time down the road, sooner rather than later, they come to see just how silly, and damaging, all this is getting.

 

[Levite]

I found this on the internet and am wondering what others think of these glasses.

Further question is why cannot men have control over their urges without glasses, separation etc.....

I have 2 sons and we have had many conversations about modesty and behavior and the fact that they are in control of their behavior.

Why do Haradim / Orthodox feel that their self control is not under their control and they need to have separation and now glasses in order to have self control.


For Orthodox Jewish Men: Glasses That Blur Women - Lenses help keep Israeli females out of sight and temptation

The issues of tzni'ut (modesty) and kivush ha-yetzer (mastering one's impulses) as they are dealt with in Rabbinic tradition-- especially in mussar (ascetic homiletics), which has deeply influenced how we traditionally deal with those issues-- bother me a lot. A whole lot.

In general, I am not at all a fan of asceticism, and I don't believe it is particularly helpful in creating a well-founded and harmonious spirituality.

But over and above that, my biggest problem has been that the tradition tends to focus on the need for men to control their impulses, but the "solutions" to aid in that endeavor are externalized and projected, for the most part, onto women. Though it is men who are mostly conceived of as having sexual impulses that are difficult to control, and men who are supposedly easily distractable, it is women who are forced to dress modestly, to be silent, and to be walled away at shul behind a mechitzah. And over and above this simply being unjust, it bothers me because that is not actually how one masters challenging impulses.

If one is easily distracted by something, or is challenged by wild impulses at certain stimuli, one masters oneself by frequently confronting those challenging stimuli. Mastering one's impulses is an internal matter: externalizing the process actually undercuts one's efforts. And, indeed, that is clearly shown, because frum guys are easily distractable by any woman not "dressed modestly" or "acting modestly." They should be able to maintain internal kavanah (focus) and purity of thought surrounded by supermodels in bikinis, if they are really trying to master their impulses.

To master a desire, one must continuously be exposed to that desire, to become desensitized to it, to normalize it until it is no longer something remarkable.

I have known way too many yeshiva bochers (young frum guys who are studying) and unmarried kollel guys (slightly older frum guys who are studying) who have no idea how to talk to a woman (and I don't mean how to chat up a lady, I mean how to relate to female human being as another human being), who have no clue about how human sexuality actually works, and who lose every scrap of composure if they see a woman in a somewhat short skirt or a somewhat tight t-shirt. And I have known way too many frum guys who tell me in all seriousness that they could never, ever daven (pray) if there were women sitting next to them.

Which is all ridiculous. I don't mind admitting that I enjoy looking at women. I like the female form, and appreciate how it works during sex. But I have never subscribed to the ethos of tznius, or tried to hide women from my sight, or tried to make them shut up around me. And I somehow manage quite well to have intelligent discussions with women, to derive spiritual and aesthetic satisfaction from being led by shlichotei tzibur (female prayer leaders), to learn excellent torah from female rabbis, and to daven with kavanah and ruach (focus and spirit) while sitting next to women, and never once have I failed to adequately learn the text I was reading because a woman was teaching it and I was distracted by her sexuality, or had to break off my davening because of the uncontrollable arousal generated by the women sitting next to me. And I assure you, there is nothing special about me, certainly no surprising innate mastery of my yetzer. I am not alone in this. I have gone to egalitarian services for most of my life, and never a single time did I ever see a guy stop his davening, and make a dive for some attractive woman shouting, "I know it's time for the Amidah, but I gots to have you now!"

In other words, if you're a dude, and you feel like you can't relate to women without thinking of sex, and you can't be near an attractive woman without constantly drowning under a flood of wanting to do her, then I'm sorry, but the problem is you. The problem is not with women, it's with you. And the solution is not to make women dress in baggy sacks and wigs, or to separate the genders from kindergarten onward, or to make women go to the back of the bus, or any of the thousand other little pieces of oppression that frum culture sponsors, the solution is for you to grow the f*** up, get some therapy, and figure out how to deal with your personal issues inside your own personal head.

/rant

 

[Music]

If thy eye offend thee, wear glasses.

 

[Tarheeler]

And here I've been wearing glasses to correct nearsightedness for years......

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

In my opinion, to pretend that that this culture of domineering chauvinism is driven by a commitment to modesty gives far too much credence to the rationalization.

 

[Rakhel]

And here I've been wearing glasses to correct nearsightedness for years......

Didn't you hear?
They have stickers for those that have to wear corrective lenses.

Look the way I have heard this story is that the glasses are being sold by the 'modesty police" of Me'a Shera(sp)
It's a money racket.

Somewhere in the Talmud(I'm sure Levite will know) it talks of "a pinkie may even drive a man to have sexual urges," or something similar to that(it may have been her undergarments), and that it is the man's responsibility to control those urges.

So in a (very strange) sense, they are attempting to "control" those urges, by putting all the responsibility of a man's urges on the woman. As if a woman will know what part of her body will drive a man insane
And that is why one particular cultish Jewish community has forced burka-like clothing on their female members from the time of childhood


( I told you it would make your head spin)

 

[Levite]

One of my other biggest issues with how we've dealt with tzni'ut is also that the way it is currently done in the frum community is basically presented as "this is the halachah."

And the truth is, most of how tznius in the frum world works are customs derived from mussar (ascetic homiletics), or from opinions of early rabbis who were quite frank about their standards being essentially the standards of the cultures in which they were living; and when they are based on anything in Talmud, they are almost exclusively based in aggadeta (non-binding ideas and opinions). And the one or two elements that are based in actual halachah taught by the Rabbis are minor pieces of halachah, easily re-interpretable, or with available other opinions of other Rabbis to draw upon that are somewhat saner: rabbis since then have re-interpreted, ignored, chosen differently, and created end runs around halachic concepts far more difficult to work with.

The idea that "this is the halachah," "this is how it is," and there could be no other way to deal with the concepts of tzni'ut and kivush ha-yetzer halachically and traditionally is just inexcusable. This is an area in which there is plenty of potential to make different halachah: one just has to be committed to doing so. One has to be willing to accept that everything over and above the barest minimums of the halachah is flexible and subject to change by rabbinic authority, because that is the purpose of rabbinic authority: to judge anew in every generation how the halachot of given situations is best applicable in Jewish life. And to do this in a way that does not present observance as a tircha d'tzibura (a burden to the community), and flows from traditional guiding principles like darkeha darkei no'am ("its ways are the ways of pleasantness," Proverbs 3:17, referring to Torah, which many of our Rabbis understood to mean that observance of the mitzvot should be a pleasant experience, not an unpleasant one).

Tzniut is supposed to simply be a guideline that one should not mix sexual dalliance into the discourse of Torah study or prayer; which needed to be said in ancient times, because so many practitioners of non-Jewish worship in those days did mix sexuality into their sacred rituals. So we needed to strongly differentiate our ways from non-Jewish ways in this way. But today, none of the cultures Jews tend to live in do those things, and in general, Jews do not crave this. And if the issue were causing no difficulties to anyone, the fact that things have changed might still present no reason to change what we do. But things have changed, and the way we are practicing the rules of tzniut when we practice them are oppressive, and create an unpleasant, unwelcoming atmosphere, unsound ways of dealing with sexual education and emotional mastery, and none of the Jewish people-- female or male-- are being well served by how things are being done. So change has to happen.

And kivush ha-yetzer isn't supposed to be an embrace of radical asceticism. It's supposed to be about maturity, balance, and harmony: that one understands that there is a place and a time for all things, and sometimes those things don't overlap. There is a place for sexual relations, flirtation, and so forth. There is a place for Torah study and prayer. Those places are not the same place; and we should understand that the latter is, in certain deep ways, more important than the former. But that doesn't mean that the former is entirely unimportant, or should be shunned. Flirtation, dalliance, sexual relations, even crude humor, are all part of the richness of human experience-- if we are truly tzalmei elohim (created in the image of God) then even these things have within them a tiny spark of the divine; and we should enjoy them in their proper place and time. But separating out where and when is or is not proper for those things should be a fairly straightforward matter of growing up, gaining emotional maturity, and learning how to focus on the moment and the tasks at hand. It should be a process that individuals can do internally-- not a set of restrictions men force onto women in the name of propriety.

 

[Flankerl]

I like the idea. It would mean that all jewish men up until now were never frum enough.

Aaron didnt had those. Must have been frivolous times.

 

[Dena]

In other words, if you're a dude, and you feel like you can't relate to women without thinking of sex, and you can't be near an attractive woman without constantly drowning under a flood of wanting to do her, then I'm sorry, but the problem is you. The problem is not with women, it's with you. And the solution is not to make women dress in baggy sacks and wigs, or to separate the genders from kindergarten onward, or to make women go to the back of the bus, or any of the thousand other little pieces of oppression that frum culture sponsors, the solution is for you to grow the f*** up, get some therapy, and figure out how to deal with your personal issues inside your own personal head.

/rant

:clap

They set themselves up for having issues. They put so much emphasis on avoiding women that they cannot think of us as human beings. We are just body parts and they are so obsessed with making sure they don't catch a glance that they can think of nothing else if one of us happens to be in their vicinity.

I grew up being constantly reminded of how I needed to be "modest" at all times because men cannot help themselves. It made me feel like a piece of meat. I didn't understand why a man couldn't look at me in the eye if I was wearing a sleeveless dress. They should be able to do so. Making it such a huge deal creates the problem. For many it may very well be the reason they cannot.

 

[Dena]

As if a woman will know what part of her body will drive a man insane

That is why we should all probably be locked up in basements somewhere. It's the only way men will be safe from our seductive ways.

 

[jazzymom]

That is why we should all probably be locked up in basements somewhere. It's the only way men will be safe from our seductive ways.

I don't understand it because it is not just in Judaism you see this. Islam and some areas of Christianity put all the responsibility on the woman for the men to be able to have self control.

People are capable of self control. Men are capable of self control.

 

[dantech]

This is my understanding on the subject.

Every man on earth has a weakness. For some, it may be keeping kosher. For others, it may be Lashon Hara. For most, it's not taking out Zera Lebatala (The taking out of semen with no intention of impregnation).

Now, I agree 100% that it is up to the man, whose weakness is women, to avoid looking at women. If said man could not look at a woman without wanting to later commit a sin, then it is up to him to stay at home and possibly even wear those blurring glasses. It is his way of avoiding this sin.

I don't suggest that this should become the general rule, but I am not against the use of such methods in individual cases where the person judges he is to weak to beat his temptation.

Moving on...

There are a lot of laws that we follow in Judaism that may not involve us personally in any way. For example, Lashon Hara. It is said that even listening to Lashon Hara is a sin and that we should "shush" the person that speaks it to avoid others from listening to it.

Every day in our morning prayer, we say the Vidouy (confession of sins). There may be sins listed in that prayer that we actually did not perform in the passed 24 hours (since the last Vidouy), however we don't pray just for ourselves, we pray for all our people.

We are a united people and we are all responsible for each other. That being said, you could now understand the logic behind the women's laws of Tzniut. It is not necessarily for their benefit, it is for the other half of the population.

 

[Rakhel]

and yet, these "glasses" appear to be nothing more than a stumbling block. and while, yes, it is a good thing that the men are now no longer demanding the women do something, I still have a problem with this stumbling block. Further, it is not the "man" that has said he has this problem. It is the rabbi and the "modesty police" who are calling for these glasses, blinders and sticker for those who already have corrective lenses.

I, further, have a problem with the idea that this discussion could constitute Lashon Hara. As a community, such as it is, and as wide spread as it is, it does the community some good to know what stumbling blocks that are being presented by our own community. This is not gossip, it is information.

 

[dantech]

I assume I am the one you were replying to.

and yet, these "glasses" appear to be nothing more than a stumbling block. and while, yes, it is a good thing that the men are now no longer demanding the women do something, I still have a problem with this stumbling block. Further, it is not the "man" that has said he has this problem. It is the rabbi and the "modesty police" who are calling for these glasses, blinders and sticker for those who already have corrective lenses.

I live in a Orthodox community. We all consider ourselves Haredim. I could assure you that not one of the rabbis in my community would ever ask of you to wear these glasses. Instead, he would help you work into becoming the type of man who doesn't need these glasses.

You say it is the rabbi who tells the "man" what his problem is. Indeed, it is! It is his job to make sure you are constantly evolving and becoming a better person. This is the job of a rabbi. Now, becoming a "better person" is very vague and the meaning depends highly on the point of view. This is why every rabbi will help his students become better in his own way.
In this case, the rabbi might use these glasses. Let's face it, these glasses do resolve the problem. They are not ideal, and can certainly be avoided through some hard work, but this is how this rabbi decided to help his students. Furthermore, if the students decide to follow their rabbi, then who are we to say they are wrong. They are simply trying to become better the only way the know how.

I, further, have a problem with the idea that this discussion could constitute Lashon Hara. As a community, such as it is, and as wide spread as it is, it does the community some good to know what stumbling blocks that are being presented by our own community. This is not gossip, it is information.

I don't know where you got that I said this discussion constituted Lashon Hara... I was only stating that Lashon Hara, among other interdictions and Mitsvot is a good example of things we do for our people and not just for us - because we are all responsible for each other. because we are one!

 

[Deut 13:1]

and yet, these "glasses" appear to be nothing more than a stumbling block. and while, yes, it is a good thing that the men are now no longer demanding the women do something, I still have a problem with this stumbling block. Further, it is not the "man" that has said he has this problem. It is the rabbi and the "modesty police" who are calling for these glasses, blinders and sticker for those who already have corrective lenses.

I really don't agree. While I have not heard of these before now or heard of any Rabbi encouraging the use of these glasses - I don't think its our place to judge them. I happen to think they are taking the laws of modesty too far, but maybe they have issues the rest of us don't. As Levite said, there are several Jews who because of the way they were brought up, have difficulty having conversations with women. I know, I was one of them. It's a challenge that we are adapting too. How some of us choose to adapt is our choice. Now, I didn't struggle anywhere as badly as Levite describes of of the bochers he's met, but when you're brought up very strict, it can be very challenging to engage members of the opposite sex when you have little to no experience.

I know the way that I was brought up, the interests, ethics, and morals, that I have don't correspond to 99.99% of American women in the USA.