Moksha and who is "worthy" of it

[Poeticus]

That you need to reincarnate as hindu is purely a rasist hindu propaganda (I have seen it a lot among "hindu nationalists"). There is not a single hindu saint/scripture who agrees with it.

Searching the thread from start, I find that its you who introduces the "has to", hence I have not clue what you mean.

I asked a few posts back:

Are you saying that a person who (has)* to reincarnate as a Hindu being born into an Indian Hindu family in order to attain moksha is racist propaganda? Or, are you saying that to be a Hindu, period, that a person has to born in an Indian Hindu family is racist propaganda?

*has to? needs to? Why "has to"? Can you please clarify?

Let's take a look at the OP:

If not what do you think happens to "good" people who have "matured" spiritually, do they reincarnate as a Hindu?

There is no immediate-need expressed. As in, there is no "has to", "needs to" expressed in the question of the OP quoted above. It simply asks whether if people of other religions that do well spiritually, socially, etc. will be reborn as Hindu....I see nothing being asked about Indian Hindus, and rightly so.

But, thanks anyway for bring up the race card and side tracking this whole thread just because of a negative experience you may have had with Indian Hindus. And, thanks for telling me that I am misunderstanding my own religion. How appropriating of you.

 

[Ekanta]

This thread is getting ridiculous...
I interpreted the starting thread in a reasonable way, its not my fault the poster meant something completely different.
The first rule in any discussion is that you define the terms you use, I still see a complete lack of this.

Are you saying that a person who (has)* to reincarnate as a Hindu being born into an Indian Hindu family in order to attain moksha is racist propaganda?

oh, so now you understand "reincarnate as a Hindu" as I did... interesting. Yes, this is racist propaganda (duh).

Or, are you saying that to be a Hindu, period, that a person has to born in an Indian Hindu family is racist propaganda?"

Again, what do you mean by hindu? Are we now also separating between Indian-Hindu and non-Indian-Hindu? Lets suppose you mean "born in an ethnic-hindu family in India which adhere to hinduism".
Then again, what do we mean by hindusim? Is it just ethnicity/traditions/rituals/clothes? Its hard to become an ethnic hindu, I dont think its possible.
If we mean the sanatana dharma aspect in itself [truth and righteousness based on that], you dont even have to become an adherent to hinduism, since that exists in all religions.
If we mean the sanatana dharma aspect as expressed in hinduism, then I say its possible, just a hindu can convert to christianity. To say the opposite is obviously racist. A dogmatic interpretation of some texts might say different.

But, thanks anyway for bring up the race card and side tracking this whole thread just because of a negative experience you may have had with Indian Hindus. And, thanks for telling me that I am misunderstanding my own religion. How appropriating of you.

Now hold your horses. I have explained that "I interpreted the starting thread in a reasonable way, its not my fault the poster meant something completely different." If someone feel hurt along the way, that was not my intention, so I apologize for that. On the other hand I find it inapproriate of you to bring it up again as a further excuse to attack me (on non-existing grounds).

 

[Poeticus]

Attack you? Lmao. Dude, I was doing no such thing! I thought you were labeling me a racist and hence I felt offended.

Also, read one of my earlier posts, I said that the terms "Hindu" and "Sanatana Dharma" can both be subjective. Personally, I believe both terms are problematic. But, if one were to say that Vaishnava is universal, I'd agree. If one were to say that Shaiva is universal, I'd agree. If one were to say that Shakta is universal, I'd agree. etc. etc. etc.

You want my end all opinion on the matter, as per Shruti?

Rishi Vishwamitra would have identified more with a Sub-Saharan African that offered the proper fire rituals and worshipped the proper Shri Gods and said the proper prayers and lived by VarnA-shrama and followed strong ethical Dharma....
....than he would have identified with a Rajput Indian Hindu that doesn't even know what's expressed in various scriptures.

I am sure even you would agree, correct?

 

[Ekanta]

I thought you were labeling me a racist and hence I felt offended.

That was due to the misunderstanding. I could have clarified that a bit earlier, but I was a little stubborn.

Rishi Vishwamitra would have identified more with a Sub-Saharan African that offered the proper fire rituals and worshipped the proper Shri Gods and said the proper prayers and lived by VarnA-shrama and followed strong ethical Dharma....
....than he would have identified with a Rajput Indian Hindu that doesn't even know what's expressed in various scriptures.

I am sure even you would agree, correct?

I would have to agree.
And as a side note, so it doesnt become too one sided: I also realize the importance of transmission generation to generation (for example we learn from the Gita 4.2-4.3 that Krishna taught "yoga", since the succession was broken). In that aspect I absolutely respect proper tradition. And if you simply would learn hinduism, you might miss much if you dont learn from someone grown up in the tradition, or at least his/her disciples.

 

[lone wolf]

how to define this path of hinduism?
anyone who follows hindu dharma, righteous activities, correct lifestyle/way of living, as taught by the yogis munis rishis, is a hindu, regardless if that person refers to himself/herself as a hindu or not

as spiritual progress is made, realisation will come that a certain lifestyle (hindu lifestyle) needs to be adopted because it is sattvic, it brings spiritual progress

then that person (of whatver religion) will adopt this lifestyle

it is said that moksha takes a long time (many births?), then it is reasonable to believe that the person is reborn in a fitting(spiritually suitable) environment where a hindu/sattvic way of life is practised i.e. reborn as a hindu

 

[Stormcry]

Pranam !

Mosksha is the realisation of oneself ! Vedas say ,that kinowledge of bramhan is the highest ' . ' only knowers of bramhan attain bramhan ,not others .' Further says ' whatever there is non-vedic is an illusion and darkness .' This explicitly says that only followers of veda ( hindus ) can attain moksha . Only hindu sanatana dharma will give you a moksha .

Shri Krishna say in gita ' If vaishyas and lower born shudra can attain moksha through my devotion ,then what to talk about kshatriya and bramhana varna .' In this way Krishna emphasises on varna and says ' followers of varna dharma / hindus are fit for attaining moksha .'

Lord Vishnu himself is creator ,maintainor and knower of veda/Hinduism . Birth in the vedic hindu family is the highest ,most noble birth . That birth's aim is only to attain bramhan ,not to enjoy worldly pleasures .

According to vedic scripture ' bhavishya purana ' ,all non-hindu races are newly created in this kaliyug .They are called as mlecchas ( impure non-religious ) . Kaliyuga creates these races to destroy vedic dharma . Our vedic scriptures accept birth in non-hindu family as oppponent of vedas / evils. One gets birth in non-hindu family due to bad karma .

I don't think any spiritual christian would get birth in hindu vedic family . If gets ,that would be a rare case !

And yes ,he can get birth in hindu family ,if he follows veda properly

Thank you .

 

[Kalidas]

Pranam !

Mosksha is the realisation of oneself ! Vedas say ,that kinowledge of bramhan is the highest ' . ' only knowers of bramhan attain bramhan ,not others .' Further says ' whatever there is non-vedic is an illusion and darkness .' This explicitly says that only followers of veda ( hindus ) can attain moksha . Only hindu sanatana dharma will give you a moksha .

Shri Krishna say in gita ' If vaishyas and lower born shudra can attain moksha through my devotion ,then what to talk about kshatriya and bramhana varna .' In this way Krishna emphasises on varna and says ' followers of varna dharma / hindus are fit for attaining moksha .'

Lord Vishnu himself is creator ,maintainor and knower of veda/Hinduism . Birth in the vedic hindu family is the highest ,most noble birth . That birth's aim is only to attain bramhan ,not to enjoy worldly pleasures .

According to vedic scripture ' bhavishya purana ' ,all non-hindu races are newly created in this kaliyug .They are called as mlecchas ( impure non-religious ) . Kaliyuga creates these races to destroy vedic dharma . Our vedic scriptures accept birth in non-hindu family as oppponent of vedas / evils. One gets birth in non-hindu family due to bad karma .

I don't think any spiritual christian would get birth in hindu vedic family . If gets ,that would be a rare case !

And yes ,he can get birth in hindu family ,if he follows veda properly

Thank you .

Well this is very strongly based on your sect, and from the perspective of a vaishnava (nothing wrong with that, just mentioning).

I now must ask, have you read the Vedas? No sarcasm just honest questioning

 

[Kalidas]

I do agree with a lot of people that Moksha can only be attained through a dharmic life, whether or not other from other faiths can do so is difficult to say.

Which then leads to another question is there more to it then just "living a life of dharma"? Does one have to consciously be trying to reach the understanding of Brahman to get there? Can people be reaching without realizing that they are?

Because to be honest I do not think dharma as a way of life is only reserved for one group of people. Anyone can live a life of dharma even if they never knew the word or even the concept.

 

[Jaskaran Singh]

Well this is very strongly based on your sect, and from the perspective of a vaishnava (nothing wrong with that, just mentioning).

I now must ask, have you read the Vedas? No sarcasm just honest questioning

Trust me...hinduism♥krishna does not represent all Vaiṣṇava-s. He's a militant advaitin troll who holds extremely radical views with regards to varṇāśrama and apparently other races now. Following his logic, although I'm culturally Indian, I wasn't born into a "Hindu" family nor are my parents Hindus, so I must have accrued too much pāpakarma in my pūrvajanma, lol.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

[Kalidas]

Trust me...hinduism♥krishna does not represent all Vaiṣṇava-s. He's a militant advaitin troll who holds extremely radical views with regards to varṇāśrama and apparently other races now. Following his logic, although I'm culturally Indian, I wasn't born into a "Hindu" family not are my parents Hindus, so I must have accrued too much pāpakarma in my pūrvajanma, lol.

I see, well thanks for posting your views.

 

[Jaskaran Singh]

I see, well thanks for posting your views.

Perhaps I shouldn't have been so headstrong in my claim that hinduism♥krishna is a "militant advaitin troll," I was being somewhat ignorant. I was just upset at that time regarding some of hinduism♥krishna's views both here (e.g. his racist claim that a non-Hindu birth is the result of bad karma) as well his view elsewhere (e.g. his casteist claim on HDF that untouchability is sanctioned by the śāstra-s). It's sad that of all people, a so-called "monist" is so quick to judge others, lol.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram kalidas ji :namaste

So now for another one of my complicated questionsjai jai , you pose good question, ....moksha who is worthy of it ? :namaste to which the answer is very simple , those who are fully surrendered .

allthough I will give my appologies , I began to read this thread and could see the beginings of the same old arguments and I read no further , ....thus I give you my simple answer .

Do you think moksha is attainable by other religions? If so which ones?

this question however complicates the simple question as some will take it that only dharmic faiths can atain moksha as it is a dharmic concept , ... many other faiths have their own concepts and their own word to describe moksha , but in truth moksha is attainable by all .

If not what do you think happens to "good" people who have "matured" spiritually, do they reincarnate as a Hindu?

they atain moksha through surrender to the supreme which ever religious prosess they have used or been born into . ........surrender equals moksha .

 

[chinu]

So now for another one of my complicated questions

Do you think moksha is attainable by other religions? If so which ones?

If not what do you think happens to "good" people who have "matured" spiritually, do they reincarnate as a Hindu?

IMO, moksha is not a personal property of any specific religion, Attaining of moksha only depends on God, God means the one which is God.

Btw, what do you mean by "Matured spiritually" ?

 

[Stormcry]

Trust me...hinduism♥krishna does not represent all Vaiṣṇava-s. He's a militant advaitin troll who holds extremely radical views with regards to varṇāśrama and apparently other races now. Following his logic, although I'm culturally Indian, I wasn't born into a "Hindu" family nor are my parents Hindus, so I must have accrued too much pāpakarma in my pūrvajanma, lol.

pranam,

This singh guy is itself a troll.
;
Hinduism♥krishna is the vaishnawa .This is my identity . Vaishnawism is a sect and advaita is a vedic philosophy . I am certainly related to iskcon .

You are claiming you follow indian culture . I think it should be a spiritual culture.

Then tell me, does ur family believe in veda and do they follow it ? Do they perform various 16 sanskaras starting from upanayan sanskara ? Do they worship vedic God like Krishna ? Are they vegetarians ? Do they do vedic yadnya ? Do they follow varnashrama dharma? Do they belong to any varna ? What is the postion of your family in vedic society ? No doubt, its a null .

Does anyone will call such family as pious spiritual family ?

Hey friend, first please read and understand our vedic scriptures instead of speaking some non-sense.

hare Krishna ....

 

[Stormcry]

IMO, moksha is not a personal property of any specific religion, Attaining of moksha only depends on God, God means the one which is God.

Btw, what do you mean by "Matured spiritually" ?

pranam ,

I want to know two things from you ?

1) You are from which religious or which religion you are following ?

2) what do u mean by a moksha?

Hindu veda says ' Only followers of veda can attain moksha ie. realisation of soul. Others can not ! They will wander here and there going through heavens, hells etc . Realisation of bramhan is attainable only by knowers of veda. '

Then tell me the name of any person, who didn't follow veda and attained bramhan ?

Thank you.

 

[psychoslice]

It is greedy to think one belief system holds the monopoly on liberation, and its one big lie. Many are becoming Enlightened all around the world, and that includes many who are not Hindu, or believes in the Veda

 

[chinu]

1) You are from which religious or which religion you are following ?

To me, religion means re-union with.. from where we all started this journey of life in the beginning.

2) what do u mean by a moksha?

Moksha is equal to re-union as I mentioned above.

Hindu veda says ' Only followers of veda can attain moksha ie. realisation of soul. Others can not ! They will wander here and there going through heavens, hells etc . Realisation of bramhan is attainable only by knowers of veda. '

I think you are getting wrong translations of Vedas from somewhere, Am sure this can never be written in Vedas.

Then tell me the name of any person, who didn't follow veda and attained bramhan ?

What's the use of addressing you any such person ?
First of all you tell me that how will detect if anyone has attained moksha/ Bramhan ? and what is your method to detect any such person as moksha attained ? As far as I know, only the one who has attained moksha can detect the one who has attained moksha, otherwise its just like blind detecting the blind.. loll.

 

[Kalicharan Tuvij]

Namaste.

The HK-JS discourse is an important one, in relation to the future fate of Hinduism. So it will help if both retain their composure here, and speak objectively.

Questions before HK:
1) Will there be always difference between a born-Hindu following Veda, and a non-born Hindu doing the same?

2) There may be some good in other religions, perhaps, that makes someone seek even deeper (starting from the base provided by their parents), and thus discovers Hinduism along the way. Is this an easy task? Sure there is something like past lives' karma, but what about "this life's intense karma" that makes someone adopt Hinduism in this life itself?

Questions before JS:
1) Are you discounting (with regard to merit) totally a birth in a regular, religious, Hindu household?
2) What if the "untouchability" is indeed sanctioned by Shashtra-s? What if HK is not wrong totally? {what if "untouchability" was in a ritual sense, a phase of all kind of tapa, before one's being inducted -may be one's children, if not oneself- into the Varna?}

 

[Vinayaka]

Which then leads to another question is there more to it then just "living a life of dharma"? Does one have to consciously be trying to reach the understanding of Brahman to get there? Can people be reaching without realizing that they are?

I think that 'living a life of dharma' (whatever that actually means) probably includes a conscious search for merging with Brahman, at least in the later stages of a soul's evolution back to Brahman.

So yes, people who live a good clean ethical life are on the way, and it's not conscious.

You ask such great questions.

 

[Poeticus]

2) What if the "untouchability" is indeed sanctioned by Shashtra-s? What if HK is not wrong totally? {what if "untouchability" was in a ritual sense, a phase of all kind of tapa, before one's being inducted -may be one's children, if not oneself- into the Varna?}

"In mankind, nobody is superior or inferior. All strive together like brothers for the glory and prowess." (R.V.5.60.5)

That is Shruti.