Moksha in Dvaita?

[Aupmanyav]

No sheaths for me. I am neither an onion nor cabbage.

 

[The Crimson Universe]

Thanks, I'm familiar with the sheaths (koshas), but haven't been clear how they are viewed in the different schools, and their relationship with Atman.
So, at the risk of oversimplifying:
In Advaita, it's only the 4 inner sheaths (koshas) which are involved in transmigration, with Atman unchanging.
In Dvaita, it's Atman plus inner sheaths which transmigrate, and Atman changes too?

That's right.
In dvaita (atleast as per the Hare Krishnas) its atman plus the 4 inner sheaths that transmigrates. Here atman changes in the sense that it grows spiritually.
In advaita, only the 4 sheaths transmigrates, not atman. Here atman doesn't change. Only the 4 sheaths grows spiritually.

 

[ameyAtmA]

Namaste

Nice discussion.

That's right.
In dvaita (atleast as per the Hare Krishnas) its atman plus the 4 inner sheaths that transmigrates. Here atman changes in the sense that it grows spiritually.
In advaita, only the 4 sheaths transmigrates, not atman. Here atman doesn't change. Only the 4 sheaths grows spiritually.

The bigger question in my opinion : What happens to the manomay, vidnyAnmay and Anandmay koshas after moksha , in advaita?
Acc. to me they remain, just that it is via these koshas, the necessary instruments and the composite medium, existence stays. Acc. to Dada BhagawAn, the mukta stays in "siddha loka".
It only makes sense as the 4 koshas or 3 or 2 or 1 need a "spot" . Can they disperse?

Few others say that the realized saints who "look over their devotees" are not actually realized. However the majority understanding is that they are "somewhere."

Why saints. We know that Shri KRshNa , Shri Rama are there, as individuals. They continue to be. Even Narsimha. So what to speak of saints and spiritual masters.

However, I am waiting to hear what you think about it. Look forward to your explanation.

 

[The Crimson Universe]

@ameyAtmA

As long as you hold onto your individuality (think in a dualistic sense) that you are separate from ishwara, saints and other jivas, you will continue to retain your inner sheaths even after moksha. You will probably dwell in some higher plane of existence after your time here on earth.

But in advaita moksha, there is complete annihilation of all 5 sheaths. And then only Brahman remains alone. Atleast that's what i've come to know after questioning someone on an Advaita forum. And they quoted from the Upanishads.

This was his reply-

At videha mukti (moksha after death), each element of the 5 koshas (e.g.the senses, the mind, ego, prana airs etc.) resolves into the deity that presides over that element. For e.g. the sense of sight resolves into the deity presiding over the sun, etc.

See muNDaka 3.2.7 for reference.

गताः कलाः पञ्चदश प्रतिष्ठा देवाश्च सर्वे प्रतिदेवतासु ।
कर्माणि विज्ञानमयश्च आत्मा परेऽव्यये सर्व एकीभवन्ति ॥ ७ ॥

The elements out of which the sheaths are made of (fire, air, water, earth, ether) again return back to their source (after moksha) and thus the sheaths are destroyed and Brahman alone remains.

 

[ameyAtmA]

@ameyAtmA

As long as you hold onto your individuality (think in a dualistic sense) that you are separate from ishwara, saints and other jivas, you will continue to retain your inner sheaths even after moksha. You will probably dwell in some higher plane of existence after your time here on earth.

I don't consider nor experience that.
Forget me. What about Rama, KRshNa and Narsimha, if Brahman appears and stays or presents in those forms there is some agency, rule that maintains that.
Again, bhAv versus ontology.
What you mention is bhAv.
What about ontology of KRshNa, Rama, Narsimha? It is Brahman, existing or expressing as KRshNa, Rama and Narsimha.

 

[The Crimson Universe]

I don't consider nor experience that.
Forget me. What about Rama, KRshNa and Narsimha, if Brahman appears and stays or presents in those forms there is some agency, rule that maintains that.
Again, bhAv versus ontology.
What you mention is bhAv.
What about ontology of KRshNa, Rama, Narsimha?

I think its nirguna brahman with its power of maya who's behind every action and events. He's the ultimate agent in my opinion.

The advitins says, there's no agency in nirguna brahman and that agency lies only in saguna brahman.

True, its saguna who creates and destroyes and thus there's agency in him.

But who manifests the saguna form?
Is it not the substratum (nirguna brahman) that manifests the saguna, just like how ocean produces waves?

Doesn't that make nirguna an agent?

I believe that even the initial task of manifesting the forms of vishnu, bruhma, shiva and devi by nirguna brahman, is a type of action and thus it gives nirguna a sort of agency in my opinion.

 

[ameyAtmA]

I think its nirguna brahman with its power of maya who's behind every action and events. He's the ultimate agent in my opinion.

The advitins says, there's no agency in nirguna brahman and that agency lies only in saguna brahman.

True, its saguna who creates and destroyes and thus there's agency in him.

But who manifests the saguna form?
Is it not the substratum (nirguna brahman) that manifests the saguna, just like how ocean produces waves?

Doesn't that make nirguna an agent?

I believe that even the initial task of manifesting the forms of vishnu, bruhma, shiva and devi by nirguna brahman, is a type of action and thus it gives nirguna a sort of agency in my opinion.

I agree with you. That is how I see it too.