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Monarchists! Does monarchy depend on God?

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
A lot of religious language surrounds the idea of monarchy: there's the "divine right of kings", many monarchies point to God as the source of their authority (e.g. in the UK and here in Canada, where money is emblazoned with the caption "Queen by the grace of God" (in Latin), some monarchies trace their lineages back to Biblical kings like David or Solomon, some even trace it back to actual gods. In general, monarchs also tend to have more religious duties than elected heads of state.


... which all leads to a question: does monarchy *depend* on God or gods for legitimacy? Is there any way to justify a hereditary dynasty of rulers that doesn't involve God bestowing authority on the individual at the top of the family tree?
 

lovemuffin

τὸν ἄρτον τοῦ ἔρωτος
I think I would argue that, as an abstract political system, monarchy does not logically require any particular form of theism. But historically speaking, monarchy and monotheism are closely related, mutually reinforcing, and seem to arise together based on a similar view of the world. Within the history of Judaism it seems to me that some of the monotheistic language about God arises out of metaphors based on an existing monarchical system, although that's probably difficult to establish with complete reliability. I've read arguments that understand the Greek and Hebrew terms for "all-mighty" in this way.
 

Erebus

Well-Known Member
... which all leads to a question: does monarchy *depend* on God or gods for legitimacy? Is there any way to justify a hereditary dynasty of rulers that doesn't involve God bestowing authority on the individual at the top of the family tree?

I live in the UK, but I'm definitely not a fan of monarchy. That said, I thought I'd share something I heard recently about this.

At some point in history, people being born to rule could well have made sense. For a long time, you tended to see skills passed from parent to child. It was perhaps an easy way of filling a needed role in a community. Therefore, a blacksmith would teach his sons to be blacksmiths, a farmer would teach his sons to be farmers and so on. In theory, this could also apply to rulers. The current ruler is the one with experience of ruling and is in an ideal position to pass that knowledge onto their children. So that's a potentially pragmatic reason to have a monarchy without the need for gods.

On the flip side, this explanation has a fair few problems with it. Firstly, it assumes that children are always going to be able to learn their parent's trade and will always be suitable for the job. Any look through history should reveal that there have been monarchs who were just plain bad. Pragmatism falls down there, since the sensible thing to do would be to find somebody else to rule.
Secondly, it's too simplistic when applied to entire countries. It could arguably work for small, self-sufficient communities, but an entire country is a different matter. Monarchs required advisors and courtiers aplenty, who's to say that one of them didn't learn more about ruling than the monarch's children?
Finally, the explanation relies on the good old line "at some point in history." Today brings its own problems, which I don't think monarchy is suitable to deal with. In fact, I'd say the pseudo-monarchy of politicians generally being born to wealthy and influential families isn't suitable.

Ultimately, belief in divine right certainly helps to cement a monarchy. The other reasons I see people use to justify the UK's monarchy are that it's traditional and that it attracts a lot of tourism. Keeping something for the sake of tradition strikes me as fairly similar to belief in divine right. Tradition for its own sake needs no reason and to question it is seen as impolite at best. In other words it's something that's collectively considered sacred.
Tourism is a sticky area. Whether or not monarchy is justified depends on whether it generates more income than it costs (let's leave aside the issue of their powers for now). The problem is, how much tourism the monarchy is responsible for generating is all but impossible to determine. How many visitors to the UK just wouldn't bother if we no longer had a monarchy? Personally, I'd be surprised if losing those people ended up costing us more than it costs to keep the monarchy.

OK, ended up ranting a bit more than I expected there. Sorry about that :) Hopefully there's at least some food for thought in there.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
A lot of religious language surrounds the idea of monarchy: there's the "divine right of kings", many monarchies point to God as the source of their authority (e.g. in the UK and here in Canada, where money is emblazoned with the caption "Queen by the grace of God" (in Latin), some monarchies trace their lineages back to Biblical kings like David or Solomon, some even trace it back to actual gods. In general, monarchs also tend to have more religious duties than elected heads of state.


... which all leads to a question: does monarchy *depend* on God or gods for legitimacy? Is there any way to justify a hereditary dynasty of rulers that doesn't involve God bestowing authority on the individual at the top of the family tree?

I don't know. I think that if Jesus had said that only by doing this or that you will join the Republic of God, instead of the Kingdom of God, that would have sounded a bit odd.

Ciao

- viole
 

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
Is there any way to justify a hereditary dynasty of rulers that doesn't involve God bestowing authority on the individual at the top of the family tree?
Monarchies aren't of necessity hereditary. Consider the Vatican where the monarch is elected.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
I think one of the most common things in the history of early civilizations was the mutual support of kings and priests. Basically, you see a pattern of kings being granted legitimacy by the priests (e.g. "The king is set over us by the gods") and then the kings protecting the priests in return for their support. You find this pattern in Sumerian, Egyptian, Inca, Mayan, and other early civilizations. Where the pattern is not entirely evident is in the Indus Valley and Yellow River civilizations.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
does monarchy *depend* on God or gods for legitimacy? Is there any way to justify a hereditary dynasty of rulers that doesn't involve God bestowing authority on the individual at the top of the family tree?

Not a monarchist either, so take or leave that as you may.

It is certainly possible to have legitimacy for monarchy, but if you mean without seriously limiting or even entirely removing its supposedly autocratic nature and the extent of its influence, then I suppose the only way is by having the monarch know each one of his or her subjects in person and earning their trust and blessing.

That said, I think it is important to acknowledge that there is a very powerful tendency in most communities to lend prestige to the idea of the Strong, Rightful Leader That Will Set Things Right. It is one of the purest examples of motivational myth around, naturally arising even in such unlikely environments as the figure of the POTUS (which exists in an environment that is intentionally built to forbid him from being anywhere near as powerful) and in popular understandings of George Martin's "Game of Thrones" and its sequels and adaptations, particularly "A Clash of Kings". Even in such an entirely fictional and fully documented context, people will just decide that a certain claimant that I would rather not name right now "is" the rightful leader, despite the books themselves all but screaming that it makes no sense.

It is even possible, perhaps likely that it was the Strong Leader myth that made it possible for the Supreme God myth to arise, as a precursor of sorts. There is some evidence that the two are not fully differentiated even now.
 

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
I suppose, though that isn't exactly an example of a monarchy that doesn't depend on God for its justification.
I responded to the hereditary dynasty part. It doesn't have to be so, and therefor no. Monarchy doesn't of need rest on a theological claim. In an electoral monarchy the right to rule can be based on the will of the governed.
 

Jonathan Ainsley Bain

Logical Positivist
Monarchies became prevalent when a minority of people were literate.
The primary form of literacy in those times was Theological.
Even if the monarch was semi-literate, he or she still relied on
the literacy of the priesthood to authenticate documentation of
ownership and rights. A 'right' was originally a 'writ', that is,
a letter underpinned by the monarch's symbol.

Because God was the ultimate symbol, all forms of clerical ownership
were said to be by virtue of the King.

Militarily this was of utmost importance, as an army had to
be organized clerically. It was only when literacy became
prevalent, that non-religious groups began to organize
themselves in a way which copied the religious monarchy.

In many ways the monarchies had decayed away from
their original teachings, and the common folk had surpassed
their teachers in some areas. So we had the French revolution,
and all other subsequent governments followed on from this.

Boy do I digress! Sorry!

All I suppose I am really trying to say is that regardless of
where you stand politically, it all originated from monarchy.

If a tree think that it no longer needs the root and the ground
from whence it sprung, then that tree is about to topple over.
 

GoodbyeDave

Well-Known Member
I'm a big fan of monarchy. Even the faded version we have in Britain has the advantage that a monarch commands more prestige and is beholden to no-one: that makes them a far better ultimate defence of the constitution than a president like they have in Germany. Consider how King Juan Carlos of Spain foiled a coup, or how our King George V aided the reform of Parliament and organised the coalition government which got us through the Depression.

Obviously it was originally religious and the Queen is still head of the Church of England (rather her than me). A few English Heathen still accept her descent from Odin.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
As @DavidMcCann pointed out, from an historical Heathen perspective, Queen Elizabeth II is a direct descendent of Woden Himself, being one of the Ethelings alongside all the other still-ruling Kings and Queens of Europe. (Though I, personally, don't really care if she is.) Even some time after Christianization, Anglo-Saxon Kings were claiming direct descent from Woden for their legitimacy. So I don't think the idea of "divine right to rule" in terms of a monarchy is necessarily dependent on monotheism. Many polytheist pantheons often still had a King of the Gods, the title of which was held by Woden for the Anglo-Saxons and Oðinn for the Norse. (It used to be Tiw).

That said... it makes no sense for a King to be ruling over modern-sized countries. The word "King" is etymologically related to the word "kin", so the role of the King should be as head of a Kindred. A Kingdom cannot function if it extends too far, involving too many people for the King to know by name and face. Therefore, in terms of governing in the modern world, I'm absolutey not a monarchist, politically speaking. Sure, I've got some romantic attachment to the idea of monarcy, so if the English Crown were abolished I'd feel saddened, but I'd just have a little personal ceremony where I sing the Funeral of Scyld from Beowulf and then move on. I wouldn't fight at all to keep it intact.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
I'm a big fan of monarchy. Even the faded version we have in Britain has the advantage that a monarch commands more prestige and is beholden to no-one: that makes them a far better ultimate defence of the constitution than a president like they have in Germany. Consider how King Juan Carlos of Spain foiled a coup, or how our King George V aided the reform of Parliament and organised the coalition government which got us through the Depression.

Obviously it was originally religious and the Queen is still head of the Church of England (rather her than me). A few English Heathen still accept her descent from Odin.

Sometimes I wish we Italians still had the monarchy too...now we have a President who lives in a royal palace...quite weird.
The last king of Italy, Humbert II was gay and was forced to marry a Belgian princess...and according to genetics laws, it is impossible his children were his.

so monarchy can turn into a farce...it loses all its meaning.
Btw the Belgian princess was treated like a real queen, she was allowed to have her own rooms, her own friends and lovers.
Lady Diana Spencer wasn't.
 
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