Monotheists: convince me your god exists

[Sully]

I think the conspiracy theories that the Disciples created Christianity and invented the events surrounding Jesus as being created to parallel and match-up with the Old Testament are unconvincing. Many of the early followers and most of the Disciples of Jesus died horrible deaths for their faith. They lived during Christ's ministry. They would have known if it was concocted...why would they not renounce this deception to save their own lives. Many people throughout history have died for their faith but it is a faith they did not have firsthand knowledge of.. these early believers would have know it was a deception and nobody dies for a lie.

Lastly take the oldest translations of the Bible and Books of the Bible ( The Greek Septuagint 3rd century BCE and was completed by 132 BCE/ and the original manuscripts of the Dead Sea Scrolls) and tried to determine the likelihood of one man fulfilling the prophesy...don't even use the New Testament and don't even use Jesus...just follow the trail God has provided.

 

[Rival]

Many of the early followers and most of the Disciples of Jesus died horrible deaths for their faith.

Proof? Proof the Apostles died in this way?

They lived during Christ's ministry.

Proof Jesus existed?

and tried to determine the likelihood of one man fulfilling the prophesy...don't even use the New Testament and don't even use Jesus...just follow the trail God has provided.

Which prophecies? I don't recall a Messianic Era of Peace, or the Messiah bringing the lost tribes back; has the Temple been rebuilt and does everyone call on the name of HaShem?

 

[Sully]

Prove the Apostles existed? At some point we have to acknowledge the historical record...the Jewish historian Flavius Josephus and the Roman historian Tacitus outlines this period of the early Church and Christ's ministry. They name the Disciples and confirm many of the accounts one finds in the Gospels. If one questions the existence of the Disciples then you have to question anything in history with the same skepticism. I find many people will accept much less proof for other historical figures (i.e., Alexander the Great). The surviving accounts of Alexander's life are something like a 100 years after his death; conversely, most of the accounts of Jesus occurred in the lifetime of the followers who knew and followed him.

 

[Rival]

Prove the Apostles existed? At some point we have to acknowledge the historical record...the Jewish historian Flavius Josephus and the Roman historian Tacitus outlines this period of the early Church and Christ's ministry. They name the Disciples and confirm many of the accounts one finds in the Gospels. If one questions the existence of the Disciples then you have to question anything in history with the same skepticism. I find many people will accept much less proof for other historical figures (i.e., Alexander the Great). The surviving accounts of Alexander's life are something like a 100 years after his death; conversely, most of the accounts of Jesus occurred in the lifetime of the followers who knew and followed him.

Well, provide me some? To be honest, I could probably reel off most of the ones you name, being a former Christian. Apart from Josephus, which was an interpolation and none of the Church Fathers mentioned him in their writings. I actually agree with you that Jesus probably existed, but I would like you to prove that he was who you believe he is.

 

[Sully]

I am not sure what you are asking for...Tacitus the Roman Historian outlines the trial of Jesus and the later persecution of the early Church by Nero. Obviously, the more intimate accounts of Jesus in the Gospels were described by those who were there (except Luke). Mark (John Mark) was believed to be taking Peter's accounts.

I read the New Testament and it reads as true...really people (with all their faults) slowly coming to the realization of who they were following. These accounts were written down and passed along and copied by the persecuted early Church...there was no formal leaders of the Church that could have changed all of the copies of these accounts to change it. I go back to my original premise... if you know you are falsifying history why would you die for it? None of the early Christians renounced Christ or that surely would have been noted in the annals of the Roman and Jewish historians.

I am sorry you have moved away from the faith. I will pray you will find your way back... your quest to find proof God Exists is a noble one...ironically...it is what brought me to faith. Here are a few books I found inspiring during this same journey:

Mere Christianity - C.S. Lewis
No God But One - Nabeel Qureshi
More Than a Carpenter - Josh D McDowell
God's Smuggler- Brother Andrew
Killing Christians- Tom Doyle
Dreams and Visions - Tom Doyle/ Greg Webster
Who Moved the Stone? Frank Morison

After reading these books I read the Bible again and came to Christ.

 

[Rival]

I am not sure what you are asking for...Tacitus the Roman Historian outlines the trial of Jesus and the later persecution of the early Church by Nero. Obviously, the more intimate accounts of Jesus in the Gospels were described by those who were there (except Luke). Mark (John Mark) was believed to be taking Peter's accounts.

I read the New Testament and it reads as true...really people (with all their faults) slowly coming to the realization of who they were following. These accounts were written down and passed along and copied by the persecuted early Church...there was no formal leaders of the Church that could have changed all of the copies of these accounts to change it. I go back to my original premise... if you know you are falsifying history why would you die for it? None of the early Christians renounced Christ or that surely would have been noted in the annals of the Roman and Jewish historians.

I am sorry you have moved away from the faith. I will pray you will find your way back... your quest to find proof God Exists is a noble one...ironically...it is what brought me to faith. Here are a few books I found inspiring during this same journey:

Mere Christianity - C.S. Lewis
No God But One - Nabeel Qureshi
More Than a Carpenter - Josh D McDowell
God's Smuggler- Brother Andrew
Killing Christians- Tom Doyle
Dreams and Visions - Tom Doyle/ Greg Webster
Who Moved the Stone? Frank Morison

After reading these books I read the Bible again and came to Christ.

It was reading the Scriptures that made me realise that Jesus could not be the Messiah. I watched countless videos, read books, spoke with other Christians, went to Church and did everything I could. This didn't change the fact that Jesus fulfilled none of the Messianic prophecies. Or the fact that new testament theology is nigh unrecognisable next to Jewish theology; the Trinity, the deity of Jesus, vicarious redemption; all these ideas are foreign to Jewish thought. One man cannot take on the sins of another, nor does anyone need to die for us to be forgiven; we don't need 'salvation' and nowhere does it say that the Messiah will be God. In fact, the Messiah go to the Temple like anyone else (because there will be a Temple!). He is just a man.

So, bring to me prophecies from the Tnach ('OT') that were fulfilled by Jesus.

Lastly, HaShem does not approve of human sacrifice. Many times He calls it an abomination; why then is it alright for Jesus to act as a human sacrifice? Because this is what he is, in your theology.

 

[Rival]

your quest to find proof God Exists is a noble one...

I do believe God exists.

 

[Sully]

Thank you for your thoughtful reply...I greatly appreciate it when we can discuss our faith and (while we disagree) we can each give our examples and thoughts.

Let's take them one at a time:
Isaiah 52:13-53:12

He Was Pierced for Our Transgressions. Behold, my servant shall act wisely; he shall be high and lifted up, and shall be exalted. As many were astonished at you—his appearance he was so marred, beyond human semblance, and his form beyond that of the children of mankind—so shall he sprinkle many nations. Kings shall shut their mouths because of him, for that which has not been told them they see, and that which they have not heard they understand. Who has believed what he has heard from us? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed? For he grew up before him like a young plant, and like a root out of dry ground; he had no form or majesty that we should look at him, and no beauty that we should desire him. He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent, so he opened not his mouth. By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of my people? And they made his grave with the wicked and with a rich man in his death, although he had done no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth. Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul make an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the Lord shall prosper in his hand. Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong, because he poured out his soul to death and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and makes intercession for the transgressors.

I believe this messianic passage clearly indicated Jesus (the Messiah) will take the punishment for a sinful world.

 

[Rival]

Thank you for your thoughtful reply...I greatly appreciate it when we can discuss our faith and (while we disagree) we can each give our examples and thoughts.

Let's take them one at a time:
Isaiah 52:13-53:12

He Was Pierced for Our Transgressions. Behold, my servant shall act wisely; he shall be high and lifted up, and shall be exalted. As many were astonished at you—his appearance he was so marred, beyond human semblance, and his form beyond that of the children of mankind—so shall he sprinkle many nations. Kings shall shut their mouths because of him, for that which has not been told them they see, and that which they have not heard they understand. Who has believed what he has heard from us? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed? For he grew up before him like a young plant, and like a root out of dry ground; he had no form or majesty that we should look at him, and no beauty that we should desire him. He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent, so he opened not his mouth. By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of my people? And they made his grave with the wicked and with a rich man in his death, although he had done no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth. Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul make an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the Lord shall prosper in his hand. Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong, because he poured out his soul to death and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and makes intercession for the transgressors.

I believe this messianic passage clearly indicated Jesus (the Messiah) will take the punishment for a sinful world.

The servant here refers to Jacob (Israel) according to Rashi's commentary. It is one of the Servant Songs in Isaiah, the others of which are in chapter 42, 49 and 50. In these preceding chapters, it is clear that the servant is Israel.

 

[Rational Agnostic]

Thank you for your thoughtful reply...I greatly appreciate it when we can discuss our faith and (while we disagree) we can each give our examples and thoughts.

Let's take them one at a time:
Isaiah 52:13-53:12

He Was Pierced for Our Transgressions. Behold, my servant shall act wisely; he shall be high and lifted up, and shall be exalted. As many were astonished at you—his appearance he was so marred, beyond human semblance, and his form beyond that of the children of mankind—so shall he sprinkle many nations. Kings shall shut their mouths because of him, for that which has not been told them they see, and that which they have not heard they understand. Who has believed what he has heard from us? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed? For he grew up before him like a young plant, and like a root out of dry ground; he had no form or majesty that we should look at him, and no beauty that we should desire him. He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent, so he opened not his mouth. By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of my people? And they made his grave with the wicked and with a rich man in his death, although he had done no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth. Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul make an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the Lord shall prosper in his hand. Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong, because he poured out his soul to death and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and makes intercession for the transgressors.

I believe this messianic passage clearly indicated Jesus (the Messiah) will take the punishment for a sinful world.

"see his offspring" and "prolong his days" cannot refer to Jesus, as Jesus had no offspring and only lived to be around 30.

 

[interminable]

All of your questions have answers but for those who have hearts not for those who are blind.
Tonight Richard Dawkins was questioned what is the purpose of our existence
And he replied this is a silly question.

See until when we wanna run from truth???

So do u have an open heart?

 

[allfoak]

As an agnostic, I haven't ruled out the possibility that god(s) may exist. However, I am extremely skeptical about the existence of god(s) particularly the Judeo/Christian/Islamic god for the following reasons. I'd like to see what Abrahamic monotheists have to say about these reasons, and if they can offer any refutations to any of the reasons, or any faults in my reasoning (I see none).

CHAPTER IV
THE ALL
"Under, and back of, the Universe of Time, Space and Change,
is ever to be found The Substantial Reality--the Fundamental
Truth."--The Kybalion.

"Substance" means: "that which underlies all outward manifestations; the essence; the essential reality; the thing in itself," etc. "Substantial" means: "actually existing; being the essential element; being real," etc. "Reality" means: "the state of being real; true, enduring; valid; fixed; permanent; actual," etc.

Under and behind all outward appearances or manifestations, there must always be a Substantial Reality. This is the Law. Man considering the Universe, of which he is a unit, sees nothing but change in matter, forces, and mental states. He sees that nothing really IS, but that everything is BECOMING and CHANGING. Nothing stands still-everything is being born, growing, dying-the very instant a thing reaches its height, it begins to decline--the law of rhythm is in constant operation--there is no reality, enduring quality, fixity, or substantiality in anything-- nothing is permanent but Change. He sees all things evolving from other things, and resolving into other things--constant action and reaction; inflow and outflow; building up and tearing down; creation and destruction; birth, growth and death. Nothing endures but Change. And if he be a thinking man, he realizes that all of these changing things must be but outward appearances or manifestations of some Underlying Power--some Substantial Reality.
The Kybalion: Chapter IV. The All

 

[Sully]

Some of the first written interpretations or targums (ancient paraphrases on biblical texts) see this passage as referring to an individual servant, the Messiah, who would suffer.

Rashi held the position that the servant passages of Isaiah referred to the collective fate of the nation of Israel rather than a personal Messiah. The Maimonides realized the inconsistencies of Rashi’s views and would not abandon the original messianic interpretations.

The objections these rabbis put forth to Rashi’s view were threefold:

1. they showed the consensus of ancient opinion.
2. they pointed out that the text is grammatically in the singular tense throughout. For example, “He was despised and rejected…he was pierced for our transgressions…he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,” and so on
3. they noted verse 8 of chapter 53. This verse presents some difficulty to those who interpret this passage as referring to Israel. By oppression and judgment, he was taken away. And who can speak of his descendants? For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was stricken.

 

[Rival]

Some of the first written interpretations or targums (ancient paraphrases on biblical texts) see this passage as referring to an individual servant, the Messiah, who would suffer.

Rashi held the position that the servant passages of Isaiah referred to the collective fate of the nation of Israel rather than a personal Messiah. The Maimonides realized the inconsistencies of Rashi’s views and would not abandon the original messianic interpretations.

The objections these rabbis put forth to Rashi’s view were threefold:

1. they showed the consensus of ancient opinion.
2. they pointed out that the text is grammatically in the singular tense throughout. For example, “He was despised and rejected…he was pierced for our transgressions…he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,” and so on
3. they noted verse 8 of chapter 53. This verse presents some difficulty to those who interpret this passage as referring to Israel. By oppression and judgment, he was taken away. And who can speak of his descendants? For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was stricken.

1. Yes, there is some divergance of opinion on this. So?
2. Israel is often referred to as the third person singular when referring to the whole nation. This is very common.
3. The Jews are still currently in exile.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

You are free to reject it entirely, But most free thinking humanity believes in God. Atheism gained it's largest influence only where religion was oppressed, e.g. in USSR, N Korea, Communist China. And where religious oppression recedes, faith invariably returns.

[/QUOTE]

Hey mate, I have no desire to argue with you on most of your points, since we're never going to agree. But it's worth considering that unnatural imposition of belief/non-belief is the reason for 'regression' in USSR, N Korea and Communist China. People were indoctrinated, forced to repress belief, etc. Naturally, when this imposition was removed, 'belief' returned. In truth, it was higher than reported all along.

In the same sense, I would guarantee there are more atheists and homosexuals in Saudi Arabia than a straw poll on the streets would indicate.

This doesn't say much about secular places where levels of religiosity have reduced gradually and naturally. I'm not trying to suggest atheism is the natural state, or anything like that, but merely that 'faith invariably returns' is a misrepresentation.

 

[1AOA1]

Greetings Abrahamic Monotheists:

Could you give an example of the Abrahamic Monotheistic lifestyle?

 

[Guy Threepwood]

Hey mate, I have no desire to argue with you on most of your points, since we're never going to agree. But it's worth considering that unnatural imposition of belief/non-belief is the reason for 'regression' in USSR, N Korea and Communist China. People were indoctrinated, forced to repress belief, etc. Naturally, when this imposition was removed, 'belief' returned. In truth, it was higher than reported all along.

In the same sense, I would guarantee there are more atheists and homosexuals in Saudi Arabia than a straw poll on the streets would indicate.


I take your point, yes. Communists didn't convince everyone to believe in atheism, - and yes, once people are free to express themselves more, they'll express themselves more.

But at the same time, religious oppression does have some tangible effect, many people fled those countries altogether, places of worship destroyed, other's were taken in by propaganda.

This doesn't say much about secular places where levels of religiosity have reduced gradually and naturally.

Like where for instance?

There are a lot of countries that were not officially communist or atheist, but the state still oppressed religion in different ways. There's always a conflict between politicians wanting to control how people think, and people turning to their own personal faith.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I take your point, yes. Communists didn't convince everyone to believe in atheism, - and yes, once people are free to express themselves more, they'll express themselves more.

But at the same time, religious oppression does have some tangible effect, many people fled those countries altogether, places of worship destroyed, other's were taken in by propaganda.

Agreed. China is a perfect example. I do think atheism has less cultural carriers than many theisms though. In a Christian country, there are invariably a lot of 'cultural Christians' who have some low level of belief and practice. Whilst non-religion can be similarly passed on without critical evaluation it lacks the consistency and ritual of any religions. Not sure where I'm going there, exactly. I'll have to ponder it more.

Like where for instance?

Take your pick. Australia and New Zealand are countries I've lived in, and I work with a lot of people from the Nordic countries, so let's start with those.

There are a lot of countries that were not officially communist or atheist, but the state still oppressed religion in different ways. There's always a conflict between politicians wanting to control how people think, and people turning to their own personal faith.

My point related to dropping levels of religiousness, or at least, increased secularism though, not state-enforced reductions, which I find odious.
Having said that, there is a chance we draw the line differently on what secularism looks like. Christian's sometimes want a set of rules for Christianity, and see that as protection of religious rights. Simple test is whether the same 'right' should be given to Muslims.

 

[syo]

I can't see him, smell him, touch him, taste him, or hear him.

the father no, but the son Jesus walked the earth so.

I've tried talking to him, but he never responds

I think god decides when to reveal himself.

People say he's written books, yet all of his books are written by man

books reveal the words of god.

Large-scale "miracles" never occur today

god chooses when to perform a miracle.

Religions have to use scare tactics to retain members

yes, they do, and it's not right.

I understand from your post that you want to command god to reveal himself to you.