Moral example of the Catholic Church

[AnonAmos]

Exactly which means truth is a pathless land that is constantly changing and different for everyone.

Not really. Just because we are too flawed to percieve aspects of Truth without help, doesn't mean that Truth is variable.

 

[AnonAmos]

Yes it would. It would convince the 5 billion people who don't believe that God's word is actually right, for one.

Once again, not neccisarily. We who believe that scripture is true read about how God spoke directly to men, or through prophets who could demonstrate His power, and they still fell quite often.

 

[no-body]

Not really. Just because we are too flawed to percieve aspects of Truth without help, doesn't mean that Truth is variable.

And let me guess which version of the truth you think is "THE truth"

 

[AnonAmos]

Also there are far more than 1 billion people that believe in the ability of God to communicate his will through writing.

 

[AnonAmos]

And let me guess which version of the truth you think is "THE truth"

It's not about versions of truth. Its about me doing the best I can to search out Truth for myself. If I must choose a label or "version" than Christianity is the best. As long as you take it by it's literal definition and don't add anything to it. I am a follower of Christ. Nothing more nothing less.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Because that would get in the way of free will, which is the whole point of existence.

This makes no sense at all.

If the Christian God is running the show, and if interference in the affairs of humanity "gets in the way of free will" (though how it would, I don't know), then God broke the rules the moment he talked to Adam.

... or, if you're not inclined to take the Garden of Eden story literally, he broke the rules when he came down to Earth in human form and gave instructions to humanity about how they should behave and believe.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The Vatican is an organization that excommunicates women for attempting to become priests but does not excommunicate male priests for raping children. It excommunicates doctors who perform abortions to save a mother's life--even if the mother is a nine-year-old girl raped by her stepfather and pregnant with twins-- but it did not excommunicate a single member of the Third Reich for committing genocide. Are we really obliged to consider such a diabolical inversion of priorities to be evidence of an alternative "moral" framework?

--Sam Harris

I think Tim Minchin expressed my feelings on the matter better in his Pope Song:

But if you build your [expletive] church on claims of moral authority
And with force impose it on others in society
Then you, you [expletive]s can expect some [expletive] wrath
When it turns out you've been [expletive]ing us in our [expletive] [expletive]s

 

[AnonAmos]

This makes no sense at all.

Let me clarify. God created all creation with the soul purpose of fellowship. You can't have fellowship with robots. Therefore the point of everything is that we have the free will to fellowship with God. Plus the comment you quoted was in response to saying that God should run the vatican, and God putting himself in the (ironically) all-powerful shoes of the pope, would impenge on free will more than when he actually did commune with us mortals(he always allowed people to choose, which hasn't always been the case with the pope). I guess I might be splitting hairs, but it seemed like an important point at the time.

 

[PolyHedral]

But the fact is that the Pope is not all-powerful; far from it, in fact. The Catholic Church doesn't always agree with him, and even when they do, fewer and fewer Christians are catholic "enough" to follow their every word.

If God were to step in that position, and demonstrate that He is actually God, then that doesn't impinge on free will at all; it only changes what the rational decision is.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Let me clarify. God created all creation with the soul purpose of fellowship. You can't have fellowship with robots. Therefore the point of everything is that we have the free will to fellowship with God.

And we wouldn't have "the free will to fellowship with God" if God ran his church directly? Why not?

Edit - you kinda skipped over my other point in my last post: if God denies us our "free will" merely by interacting with us, then wouldn't Jesus' earthly ministry and post-resurrection appearance to - going by the Bible - the whole "who's who" of first-century Judea be a denial of free will... i.e. the exact thing you're implying that God would never, ever do?

Plus the comment you quoted was in response to saying that God should run the vatican, and God putting himself in the (ironically) all-powerful shoes of the pope, would impenge on free will more than when he actually did commune with us mortals(he always allowed people to choose, which hasn't always been the case with the pope). I guess I might be splitting hairs, but it seemed like an important point at the time.

The Pope doesn't allow people to choose? I don't know about you, but the Pope has never once prevented me from having free will. Has he done that to you? If so, how?

How would God the Pope necessarily inhibit free will in any way that a human Pope wouldn't? IMO (and taking as given the existence of God for the moment), God would just be better at the job.

 

[AnonAmos]

Ok. The position of pope is "technically" one of complete authority on Earth. If God stepped down into that position, whether people actually listened to the earthly pope would no longer be relevant because the new Pope Dios I would actually be the complete authority on Earth and (within the framework of the Catholic Church) we would have no choice but to follow his will.
Like I said, I realize this whole thing has gotten blown out of perportion. My original point was that the nature of God is not compatible with the earthly creation known as the Papal See.

 

[AnonAmos]

The Pope doesn't allow people to choose? I don't know about you, but the Pope has never once prevented me from having free will. Has he done that to you? If so, how?

Ummm.....the Crusades LOL. Join or die vs. join because I love you and want to fellowship with you.

 

[Autodidact]

The messages can be found on the official Vatican website and in the numerous encyclicals of the Popes.

Not what they say are the messages, after all, we've just seen they are less than moral. The message from the actions described in the OP. What moral message do you get from those policies?

 

[Autodidact]

The path can be corrupted, yes but Truth cannot be corrupted. That is why it is every person's responsibility to search out the Truth for themselves instead of simply trying to find the best path.

I did that. Realized there isn't any path to God because there is no God.

 

[no-body]

It's not about versions of truth. Its about me doing the best I can to search out Truth for myself. If I must choose a label or "version" than Christianity is the best. As long as you take it by it's literal definition and don't add anything to it. I am a follower of Christ. Nothing more nothing less.

Which is fine as long as you don't assume someone must have done something wrong if they didn't find the same truth you did.

You can call a dog a cat all you want but it's still going to be a dog.

 

[AnonAmos]

Which is fine as long as you don't assume someone must have done something wrong if they didn't find the same truth you did.

Unless the Truth you believe in tells you that it's your job to get other people to believe. I'm not trying to start a debate on the subject, just wanted to share my viewpoint.

 

[Biblestudent_007]

Not what they say are the messages, after all, we've just seen they are less than moral. The message from the actions described in the OP. What moral message do you get from those policies?

I'm Orthodox Christian not Latin Catholic. I'm not responsible for those policies

2 things I've learned from Vatican teaching

a) human life is sacred and has dignity
b) there is a God/Creator

 

[Biblestudent_007]

/double post

 

[ppɐʇɹnɯ]

The Vatican is one of the most immoral organizations on earth. From the persecution of the Jews, to the Crusades, to the raping of young children, to preaching of hate against many different groups of people.

 

[ninerbuff]

So why isn't God himself running the Vatican?

Cause that hat really sucks. Add a cloak to it with some eye holes and you have.............