Moral Question for Believers

[Aasimar]

Jer. 17:9

9The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Romans 2

11For there is no respect of persons with God.
12For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another 16In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

And your answer?

 

[joeboonda]

And your answer?

Romans 3
10As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

 

[Yerda]

Just look at children and you will see pretty quickly that immorality ,selfishness, greed, covetousness, anger, etc are within all of us, even as litle children.
It is man's natural tendency

Would you act on your immorality ,selfishness, greed, covetousness, anger, etc if God said it was permissible?

 

[Valjean]

How would we know if God said it was permissible? He doesn't make his opinions very clear. If He did there would be a single, universal religion and system of morality.

 

[Aasimar]

Romans 3
10As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

And behold, an the 7th day they did play football, and the 49ers did trounce the Raiders, and it was good. I'm gonna assume your lack of willingness to think for yourself and and inability to do anything other than post vicariously through translated and re-translated biblical text means you don't actually have your own opinion on this matter. Which is fine, but I've read the bible and I know it's opinion, I was asking for yours.

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

Speaking as someone who has been on both sides of this fence - with God and without God I can say for sure that without God I lived an immoral lifestyle - the only morality I was accountable to was my own conscience which I was able to suppress and justify and the morals of the people around me (whose morals were even worse than mine).

I echo that also to what my sister Peace said before, about the desires not being the standard because of what you mentioned Paul. The desires can be rationalized, justified, and supressed all in one fell swoop of you try hard enough. Some things that felt right to me 10 years ago, I wouldn't be caught dead to do now. So in my estimation, just cuz something feels right isn't necessarily the thing that should be done.

 

[Darkness]

Jer. 17:9

9The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Than how is it that I am so sweet.

 

[*Paul*]

I echo that also to what my sister Peace said before, about the desires not being the standard because of what you mentioned Paul. The desires can be rationalized, justified, and supressed all in one fell swoop of you try hard enough. Some things that felt right to me 10 years ago, I wouldn't be caught dead to do now. So in my estimation, just cuz something feels right isn't necessarily the thing that should be done.

Thats right, it's just what God spoke through Jeremiah the prophet which brother Joe posted:
Jer. 17:9
9The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

When I was without God I was accountable only to people whom I could decieve if necessary and to my own self whom I could distract with sinful pleasures. I did all this whilst at the same time time convincing myself that all was well between God and I - not comprehending His holiness and purity.
Really what I was doing was forming my own god in my mind that was acceptable to and accepted me for who I was and what ever I did rather than seeking out and submitting to the standards that He had declared in His holiness the His prophets, apostles and Son.
This is rank idolatry and if God had struck me dead and sent me to hell He would have been righteous in doing so because I truly deserve(d) it.

 

[Darkness]

This is rank idolatry and if God had struck me dead and sent me to hell He would have been righteous in doing so because I truly deserve(d) it.

God would have not been righteous in placing you in a hell. I would fight any God who would do that to you. Maybe us "Devils" are the only ones who will never be reconciled unto God, but those who are willing to repent should always be forgiven. God forgiveth all sins except the sin of Pride. Pride is the only thing which can keep you seperated from God, because it is Pride that prevents you from repenting. I should know.

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

Really what I was doing was forming my own god in my mind

Again I agree to that. There is an ayat of Quran that is very apt, and speaks of this very thing:

43. Have you (O Muhammad SAW) seen him who has taken as his ilâh (god) his own desire? Would you then be a Wakîl (a disposer of his affairs or a watcher) over him? (Furqan)


Here Allah is askin the Prophet (saw) if he has seen the person who makes his own desires his god? A very dangerous trap it is, to assume that obedience to ones' own desire, and preferring that over the will of God is anything but idolatry. It is very subtle but no less dangerous.

8. Is he, then, to whom the evil of his deeds made fair­seeming, so that he considers it as good (equal to one who is rightly guided)? ......(to the end of the ayat)


I believe that many of us who have been on both sides of the fence, then end up finding God once fell into the above category. At one point, what we now know as ill-deeds once seemed fair and good to us. And we did consider ourselves on par with those in whom Allah was well-pleased.

 

[*Paul*]

God would have not been righteous in placing you in a hell. I would fight any God who would do that to you. Maybe us "Devils" are the only ones who will never be reconciled unto God, but those who are willing to repent should always be forgiven. God forgiveth all sins except the sin of Pride. Pride is the only thing which can keep you seperated from God, because it is Pride that prevents you from repenting. I should know.

I agree that if I did not repent and died in that condition then hell would be the place for me, it is indeed pride that prevents repentance because repentance is an act of humilty towards God.
I would never call you a devil and God offers reconciliation to all no matter what they have done but it is too late to wait until we die because after we die we go to judgement.
The bible is clear that God forgives the repentant and that with overwhelming joy on Gods part (i.e the prodigal son), like a father who has His beloved son back from the dead. But repentance is not merely saying sorry it a a change of heart towards God. I know this because I spent 11 years of my life saying sorry to God for each sin I knew of, every time I even swore I would immediatly whisper a "sorry God" prayer.
My problem was I prouldy thought that if He gave me another chance and another chance I could eventually get it right and live up to His perfect standards.
You are very correct in pin pointing pride as such a deadly sin, be rid of this at all costs if you love life or want to love life.

 

[*Paul*]

I believe that many of us who have been on both sides of the fence, then end up finding God once fell into the above category. At one point, what we now know as ill-deeds once seemed fair and good to us. And we did consider ourselves on par with those in whom Allah was well-pleased.

I certainly thought of myself as no less righteous than anyone else and anyone who appeared more righteous that myself I presumed was a fake or a hypocrite or outwardly religious and I looked for any sign in them that they were so that I could justify myself.
How I hated being around anyone clean and good but I could talk the talk and pass myself off as one of them when necessary.

 

[Darkness]

You are very correct in pin pointing pride as such a deadly sin, be rid of this at all costs if you love life or want to love life.

The tricky thing is that I do not believe Pride to be a bad thing. Pride is a very good thing, if it is not arrogance. It is a sin, though. I do not actually believe in God, so my words were shaded symbolism. When dealing with issues of a moral nature, I find it useful to make believe the other person's religious dieties and gods are true. Ergo, if your God was real, I would want people to follow Him merely so they can live and not perish. I, however, have to do what I feel in my heart is right and defy God with all my strength.

A good book to read on this mentality is the Revelation of Lucifer the Divine by Quentin Mark Pierson.

 

[mcteethinator]

I would still be moral without religion, but I would not be as consistent.

 

[*Paul*]

I do not actually believe in God, so my words were shaded symbolism. [snip] I, however, have to do what I feel in my heart is right and defy God with all my strength.

Could you clarify please are both the quoted statements true to you? I assume i'm misreading what you wrote but I have read it several times now and i'm not quite seeing if you believe in the existence of God or not.

 

[*Paul*]

The tricky thing is that I do not believe Pride to be a bad thing. Pride is a very good thing, if it is not arrogance. It is a sin, though. I do not actually believe in God, so my words were shaded symbolism. When dealing with issues of a moral nature, I find it useful to make believe the other person's religious dieties and gods are true. Ergo, if your God was real, I would want people to follow Him merely so they can live and not perish. I, however, have to do what I feel in my heart is right and defy God with all my strength.

A good book to read on this mentality is the Revelation of Lucifer the Divine by Quentin Mark Pierson.

Just out of interest, you believe that pride is a good thing - what about yourself are you proud of and why?

 

[Darkness]

Could you clarify please are both the quoted statements true to you? I assume i'm misreading what you wrote but I have read it several times now and i'm not quite seeing if you believe in the existence of God or not.

I do not believe in God. "When dealing with issues of a moral nature, I find it useful to make believe the other person's religious dieties and gods are true[exist]."

Just out of interest, you believe that pride is a good thing - what about yourself are you proud of and why?

I am proud of that I have left Christendom (with other's help). I am proud I get good grades in my University. I am proud I am a good writer.

 

[*Paul*]

I am proud of that I have left Christendom (with other's help). I am proud I get good grades in my University. I am proud I am a good writer.

What I meant was about yourself or the person that you are, not what you have acheived.
Congratulations on the good grades and writing skills that is great and there is nothing wrong with being proud of something you have acheived (so long as you are balanced) so long as it doesn't hinder you from further acheivements.

 

[Draka]

K, I'm gonna sum this one up cause we have all heard the morality battle before.

This is just a question for believers in any form of deity(ies).

Do you, personally, believe that you would act immorally without the teachings of your religion and/or your connection with said deity(ies)? Why or why not.

Who's morals would I be basing "immoral acts" upon?

Do I think if I wasn't Wiccan that I would be acting immorally? First, I don't think my morals have changed all that much since becoming Wiccan to affect any change like that. Second, I am sure that there are those out there that would say that I am living an immoral life right now, but they are basing it on their morals.

Chances are, the people who have answered this that they would be immoral without their religion would not think they were immoral if they did not have a religion that taught certain specific morals.

Morals differ from culture to culture, religion to religion, generation to generation, person to person. I'm positive there are lots of things that I consider to be perfectly moral things that some others would find so immoral that they'd be certain the perpetrator should be locked up or sent to "hell".

 

[Darkness]

Congratulations on the good grades and writing skills that is great and there is nothing wrong with being proud of something you have acheived (so long as you are balanaced) so long as it doesn't hinder you from further acheivements.

Thank you

What I meant was about yourself or the person that you are, not what you have acheived.

People always tell me I am good, sweet, and kind. I still have many areas to work on, but overall I am a nice person.