Morality and the atheists

[javajo]

no one is perfect, that is obvious.

and if we were, life would be boring, sterile, stagnant and bland...
not to mention our innate sense of curiosity and to improvise would be suppressed....

So true. In a more religious sense, not that I believe in religion for a moment, I think the verses are referring to our standing with God. Yes we aren't perfect, but beyond that the Bible says we have broken God's commandments, (and this is all just what I believe from the Bible). I know of the ten commandments I have broken every one of them in some sense or another. Jesus said if we lust after a woman we commit adultery in our heart, heck I did that today. If we are angry with someone without cause, James said we are murderers at heart. We've all taken the Lord's name in vain, lied, disobeyed our parents, stolen something no matter how small. Just those sins alone make us lying, thieving, murdering, blaspheming, adulterers at heart and disobedient to our parents, and when we stand before a holy and just God we will stand there as guilty. Breaking the commandments is called sin, the penalty of which is death. That is where I believe Christ comes in, he died, thus paying the penalty for us. When we trust him and we stand before God, we don't stand before him as guilty, we stand before him washed in Christ's blood and clothed with Christ's righteousness, justified before a holy God because of what Christ has done. That is what I believe.

 

[waitasec]

So true. In a more religious sense, not that I believe in religion for a moment, I think the verses are referring to our standing with God. Yes we aren't perfect, but beyond that the Bible says we have broken God's commandments, (and this is all just what I believe from the Bible). I know of the ten commandments I have broken every one of them in some sense or another. Jesus said if we lust after a woman we commit adultery in our heart, heck I did that today. If we are angry with someone without cause, James said we are murderers at heart. We've all taken the Lord's name in vain, lied, disobeyed our parents, stolen something no matter how small. Just those sins alone make us lying, thieving, murdering, blaspheming, adulterers at heart and disobedient to our parents, and when we stand before a holy and just God we will stand there as guilty. Breaking the commandments is called sin, the penalty of which is death.

alright. now that we have established that i am no better than you

That is where I believe Christ comes in, he died, thus paying the penalty for us. When we trust him and we stand before God, we don't stand before him as guilty, we stand before him washed in Christ's blood and clothed with Christ's righteousness, justified before a holy God because of what Christ has done. That is what I believe.

why would god create us sick and then demand us to be healed?

and i also think that it is immoral to have my responsibility and culpability to be taken from me simply for believing. if anything, those things are mine and mine alone.

 

[logician]

Religion is ultimately not about morality, morality comes from within, not wthout. An atheist can be as "moral" as anyone else.

 

[javajo]

why would god create us sick and then demand us to be healed?

Actually, I believe that the first humans, God created 'well', they got sick when they disobeyed the one commandment God gave them. (I think it was about choice, as he did not want robots who automatically loved and obeyed him). God in his mercy provided a way for us to be 'healed'. I do not know why God does what he does, I only trust him. Romans 11 says:

32For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. 33O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?

and i also think that it is immoral to have my responsibility and culpability to be taken from me simply for believing. if anything, those things are mine and mine alone.

I believe the following: They are absolutely ours and ours alone and are quite serious. Our sins and responsibility and all are quite our own and have consequences in this life and the next. They also separate us from God. While we are still responsible for our own actions, unfortunately those actions, our sins that is, have a penalty attached, which is death, physical and spiritual death and eternal separation from God. We may be stubborn and choose to pay the penalty ourselves, although Jesus has already paid it for us out of love and will put that payment to our account if we trust him to. The sins and the misery and consequences and others we hurt are still sins and results we did and we still have that knowledge even if we let Jesus pay the penalty. God would rather we forgive ourselves and forget our sins as he has and move forward in life.

I also believe that while its good to question everything, unless that's all you ever do. It's not good to only question everything and never come to the knowledge of the truth. Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. That's what I believe, anyway.

 

[javajo]

Religion is ultimately not about morality, morality comes from within, not wthout. An atheist can be as "moral" as anyone else.

Yes, we established this earlier. Many atheists are more moral than I am a lot of the time, and I am a Christian. I believe that compared to God's holiness, we all fall short.

 

[LuisDantas]

Religion isn't about morality?!?

What is it about then?

 

[Acim]

Will someone in this thread tell me why you think murder is bad? Really why? And how you arrived at that? And how that is not an 'imaginary belief?' If you can show me some 'hard evidence' for 'why bad people are objectively bad,' I would very much like to hear that.

I believe this was overlooked.
I think it still stands.
I don't expect an answer, but desire one.

Seems that non emotional responses are hard to come by.

 

[DinChild]

Acim, the Bible tends to lend itself more toward emotional catalysts -- emotional foundations to build their so-called morals. FEAR is an emotion the Bible draws upon on a very frequent basis. "Murder is bad," being one of the most fundamental. I'm not sure if you asked this question and all people gave you were emotional responses or whatever, but you still desire hard evidence. Well, in this case, so does every atheist from a theist. The party that posits a truth therefore bears the burden of proof. But hey, beggars can't be choosers. Therefore, I'll play Devil's advocate, ironically enough, for the time being.

"Seems that non emotional responses are hard to come by." - Acim. You said this based on one forum on one corner of the vast internet and assume a NON response is definite. Perhaps not, you did ask again, but still...this is a small forum (and I am new.) I'll offer you a response though, however, it will be void of hard evidence, since you'll find it fairly difficult to materialize HARD evidence when it comes to matters of morality. Just as we atheists find it difficult for believers to provide hard evidence themselves...

Why is murder bad? Our species is the first on this planet to develop consciousness. As a by-product, self-consciousness. We are aware of our mortality -- the first to be so. We are aware of time. So much so, that we've defined it and even measured it. Without the Bible, I can tell you I've developed and nurtured empathy and sympathy. The hardships I come across, I don't wish upon others, though I realize it is a necessary evil to learn and grow from our own mistakes. And when you consider, from the atheist's point of view, just how INFINITELY rare life, much less consciousness, is, the 65-some-odd years the average American lives on this slowly rotating planet is all the more precious. During those years -- those incredibly few and valuable years, we learn to love, hate, provide, respect, and grow as individuals and as a species. We have families who rely on us. Or not. We have fans who adore us...or not. Life is what we make of it, and each is inherently as necessary as the next. Each can play, potentially, an important role in the growth of our species. Take that knowledge, and then introduce the concept of murder, and you'll find your "hard evidence" for morality sans religion and sans emotion...whatever that means.

Not everyone will feel the way I do. Some take no guilt from the killing of another life. If you ask me, they forfeit their own right to live. But, as an atheist, murder breaks the bonds of emotion. Life is precious. It's a right, as far as I'm concerned. Though sympathy and empathy are emotion-based, it should, in no way, distract from the obviousness of the cruelty of murder. Emotion aside, life is precious, and we all deserve the chance, sometimes chances, to improve ourselves and our species. Those who seek to end life...are bad. Simple as that.

 

[Father Heathen]

Religion isn't about morality?!?

What is it about then?

Power.

 

[DinChild]

Power.

Truth.

 

[1948_its_happening]

Atheists that say they learned their morals from their parents and school teachings are correct but only on a microscopic level.

If you are growing up in the western world where we have free speach, womans rights, democracy take a quick look at the religion of the forefathers of your country.

CHRISTIAN TO THE BONE

You, who do not accept Christ even though you live in the continued blessing of the decisions your founding fathers made. If you want to know what would happen if there was no Christian influence just go to the middle east. Then you will know what man is capable of without the Church curbing his wickedness.

 

[DinChild]

Atheists that say they learned their morals from their parents and school teachings are correct but only on a microscopic level.

If you are growing up in the western world where we have free speach, womans rights, democracy take a quick look at the religion of the forefathers of your country.

CHRISTIAN TO THE BONE

You, who do not accept Christ even though you live in the continued blessing of the decisions your founding fathers made. If you want to know what would happen if there was no Christian influence just go to the middle east. Then you will know what man is capable of without the Church curbing his wickedness.

Red herring. There's no evidence here. You also assume people in the middle east are inherently evil. What Christianity needs are 100% fewer people like you.

 

[Father Heathen]

Atheists that say they learned their morals from their parents and school teachings are correct but only on a microscopic level.

If you are growing up in the western world where we have free speach, womans rights, democracy take a quick look at the religion of the forefathers of your country.

CHRISTIAN TO THE BONE

You, who do not accept Christ even though you live in the continued blessing of the decisions your founding fathers made. If you want to know what would happen if there was no Christian influence just go to the middle east. Then you will know what man is capable of without the Church curbing his wickedness.

Here, brush up on your history. Also, explain how whenever someone is trying to undermine the rights, freedom and equality of others in this country it's always christian fundamentalists?

 

[Father Heathen]

Truth.

Something that had a sincere interest in truth wouldn't insist on willful ignorance, intellectual dishonesty and blind unthinking adherence as so many religions do.

 

[DinChild]

Something that had a sincere interest in truth wouldn't insist on willful ignorance, intellectual dishonesty and blind unthinking adherence as so many religions do.

Sorry. I meant "Truth" as in, what you said about power was true. That's how I say 'I agree.' But I'm glad you got to expand further because of it. 'Cause yes...truth ;-)

 

[Father Heathen]

Sorry. I meant "Truth" as in, what you said about power was true. That's how I say 'I agree.' But I'm glad you got to expand further because of it. 'Cause yes...truth ;-)

Ah, sorry. Misunderstood your reply.

 

[LuisDantas]

Power.

Apparently so, for many people. But such a conception of religion is not something worth keeping. A religion that is ultimately all about power is not something to be missed.

 

[Acim]

Acim, the Bible tends to lend itself more toward emotional catalysts -- emotional foundations to build their so-called morals. FEAR is an emotion the Bible draws upon on a very frequent basis. "Murder is bad," being one of the most fundamental. I'm not sure if you asked this question and all people gave you were emotional responses or whatever, but you still desire hard evidence. Well, in this case, so does every atheist from a theist. The party that posits a truth therefore bears the burden of proof. But hey, beggars can't be choosers. Therefore, I'll play Devil's advocate, ironically enough, for the time being.

I'm pretty sure you are making my point. Go read what I stated earlier in this thread. It was, in sound bite form, "burden of proof for atheists having morals, is on atheists. Please let me see what that proof looks like." (Heard birds chirping as a response.)

"Seems that non emotional responses are hard to come by." - Acim. You said this based on one forum on one corner of the vast internet and assume a NON response is definite. Perhaps not, you did ask again, but still...this is a small forum (and I am new.) I'll offer you a response though, however, it will be void of hard evidence, since you'll find it fairly difficult to materialize HARD evidence when it comes to matters of morality. Just as we atheists find it difficult for believers to provide hard evidence themselves...

Again, you are making my point. If you read earlier, my 'proof' for how morality comes to us is provided. It is not detailed, but it is place to start the discussion that I would think would be front and center on this thread, rather than "just assume atheists have good reason for having moral principles."

Why is murder bad? Our species is the first on this planet to develop consciousness. As a by-product, self-consciousness. We are aware of our mortality -- the first to be so. We are aware of time. So much so, that we've defined it and even measured it. Without the Bible, I can tell you I've developed and nurtured empathy and sympathy. The hardships I come across, I don't wish upon others, though I realize it is a necessary evil to learn and grow from our own mistakes. And when you consider, from the atheist's point of view, just how INFINITELY rare life, much less consciousness, is, the 65-some-odd years the average American lives on this slowly rotating planet is all the more precious. During those years -- those incredibly few and valuable years, we learn to love, hate, provide, respect, and grow as individuals and as a species. We have families who rely on us. Or not. We have fans who adore us...or not. Life is what we make of it, and each is inherently as necessary as the next. Each can play, potentially, an important role in the growth of our species. Take that knowledge, and then introduce the concept of murder, and you'll find your "hard evidence" for morality sans religion and sans emotion...whatever that means.

I honor what you are saying, in general terms. I believe you speak this mostly from sincerity. From 'devil's advocate' stance, it comes off as airy fairly feelings, and is stuff that 'make believe' is made of. I could choose to break down the points you are making to point this out, but will just ask if others reading this who are of the atheist persuasion are pretty much coming from same place, or is there something more persuasive than this?

Not everyone will feel the way I do. Some take no guilt from the killing of another life.

Curious what guilt has to do with it?

If you ask me, they forfeit their own right to live. But, as an atheist, murder breaks the bonds of emotion. Life is precious. It's a right, as far as I'm concerned. Though sympathy and empathy are emotion-based, it should, in no way, distract from the obviousness of the cruelty of murder. Emotion aside, life is precious, and we all deserve the chance, sometimes chances, to improve ourselves and our species. Those who seek to end life...are bad. Simple as that.

I agree with what you are saying. Life is precious / valuable. But what is reason for this assertion is what I'm aiming for. What you are stating could be applied to, I think anything. Like I'll take an emotionally charged one first: potential human life is precious, and we all deserve the chance to improve ourselves and our species. Those who seek to end life of fetuses are bad. Simple as that. I'm not saying atheists disagree with this, but am saying there is principle at work here that are, I think rather obvious, faith based. Another example that is less emotionally charged and is just using logic employed: Viruses are precious, and all things deserve a chance to improve themselves and their species. Those who seek to end the existence of a virus...are bad. Simple as that.

 

[waitasec]

Actually, I believe that the first humans, God created 'well', they got sick when they disobeyed the one commandment God gave them. (I think it was about choice, as he did not want robots who automatically loved and obeyed him). God in his mercy provided a way for us to be 'healed'. I do not know why God does what he does, I only trust him. Romans 11 says:

32For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. 33O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?

it looks as though you are giving god the benefit of the doubt even though god set up the system to work like that...
you seem to be saying adam and eve made choices that somehow became a genetically passed down trait, it doesn't make sense to me. adam and eve had that trait already...they had the ability to choose, if you take this story literally. if the ability to chose was instilled which goes hand and hand with curiosity and if we deny our curiosity then yes, we are robots...or more like trained animals.

I believe the following: They are absolutely ours and ours alone and are quite serious. Our sins and responsibility and all are quite our own and have consequences in this life and the next. They also separate us from God. While we are still responsible for our own actions, unfortunately those actions, our sins that is, have a penalty attached, which is death, physical and spiritual death and eternal separation from God. We may be stubborn and choose to pay the penalty ourselves, although Jesus has already paid it for us out of love and will put that payment to our account if we trust him to.

i disagree with this notion on a couple of levels.
1st off, i would say god separates himself so i don't see that as "out of love".
the fact that we make mistakes is creating us sick, and then demanded to be well. if we do not make ourselves well then we are to face the consequence this ultimatum presents...
secondly, threats are not a part of love...love is freedom to choose with the understanding that mistakes will happen and condemnation will not be a result of it.
thirdly...

The sins and the misery and consequences and others we hurt are still sins and results we did and we still have that knowledge even if we let Jesus pay the penalty. God would rather we forgive ourselves and forget our sins as he has and move forward in life.

this says that we are capable of remorse...but means nothing unless
we trust god with it...
for an unbeliever, remorse is the consequence and it's up to the individual to learn not to repeat the same mistake.

I also believe that while its good to question everything, unless that's all you ever do. It's not good to only question everything and never come to the knowledge of the truth. Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. That's what I believe, anyway.

i believe the only way to "truth" is to question.

 

[gnostic]

If you are growing up in the western world where we have free speach, womans rights, democracy take a quick look at the religion of the forefathers of your country.

Democracy, free speech and woman's rights may have happened in western nations, and these nations may have had Christian-dominant populations, these didn't occur because of religions, let alone any church.

State policies were the driving forces of reforms that paved the way for democracy, free speech and woman's rights. The Age of Enlightenment in Western Europe in early 18th century, which saw the separation between State and Church.

For example, woman's rights, like voting, didn't occur for women because of the churches. No, they occurred because women began protesting for the rights to vote. Only one nation that I know of, allow for women to vote in the 19th century - New Zealand; in 1890-something, sorry I don't remember when exactly.

Even in the US, in which americans boasted about Declaration of Independence and it's phrase that

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

actually doesn't improve woman's rights whatsoever. When the 1st American president was elected, women didn't vote until 1920.

Similarly, democracy was reaction against monarchy. It was political (and social) reaction, not a religious one. The American Revolution was reaction against the monarchy of Great Britain, religion (Church) was not the catalyst of the religion or theology. You should be distinguish what is political or social issues and what is "church" policies.

And the Church was not about giving free speech. Both Catholicism and Protestantism were involved in witch-hunt Inquistions. The church as well as the monarchy throughout Western Europe used the Inquisition in silencing people, demonstrated they weren't interested in free speech.

One thing for certain. The churches weren't involved in political landscape. If anything it tried to hamper reforms in Western nations from evolving and advancing.