More Dawkins idiocy...

[icehorse]

The only world around someone is now. Evolving physically and consciously, now. Someone can know, learn, and experience the world around them without knowledge of distant past evolution.

If someone wants to learn and have knowledge of evolution, in the distant past, so be it. That's great. Harmless.

Saying that it's a compulsive need, requirement, and will transform humanity is where I disagree. Humanity gets not very far living in the past. Focused more on the world "around" them in ancient past as opposed to their own inner world and now. Hoarding boatloads of knowledge is vastly different than knowing what to do with that knowledge.

I couldn't disagree more with this. We HAVE a modern, technological society. Humans ARE having an impact on the planet. We can learn a lot about how to save our planet by learning about the past, and things like evolution are a part of that discovery process.

 

[icehorse]

But, US troops leaving Iraq was a major cause of ISIS. And, all evidence leads to ISIS being completely unreasonable. So why would removing actual reasons for them to kill innocent people actually cause them to stop in your opinion. I feel like their only reasoning is to cause destruction and setup an intolerable "caliphate" rampant with human rights abuses.

That's a big claim (US / Iraq / ISIS), can you back that up?

 

[icehorse]

Because stop giving them a cause would eventually lead to the fall of ISIS. The biggest reason why ISIS recruits so easily is because America is feeding them reasons. By stationing their armies in muslimland, killing muslims, oppressing muslims. This is opium for groups like ISIS. As long as America continues, ISIS will grow and continue aswell. And even if America somehow annihaltes ISIS, i am sure of it that they will be subsituted by another new group. Never ending cycle basically.

I largely agree with this. Let's say that the US backs entirely out of the ME. (Which I think we should.) Do you think the strong countries in the ME will put together a coalition to defeat ISIS? (I would hope so.)

 

[Osal]

I largely agree with this. Let's say that the US backs entirely out of the ME. (Which I think we should.) Do you think the strong countries in the ME will put together a coalition to defeat ISIS? (I would hope so.)

They haven't yet.

Even though ISIS is more of the threat to them than to us, they seem content to let us waste money and lives defending them.

If they were to put a coalition together it would probably be to wipe out Israel.

 

[Osal]

I couldn't disagree more with this. We HAVE a modern, technological society. Humans ARE having an impact on the planet. We can learn a lot about how to save our planet by learning about the past, and things like evolution are a part of that discovery process.

I don't know of anything in the past that could help us save the planet. I don't think there's anything that can be done to fend of ecological disaster. All we can do is mitigate the damage to society.

Evolution teaches us nothing in this regard. History could have if we had started paying attention 100 years ago.

As we move forward from that disater we can learn about evolution as we watch what species adapt to the environment and which don't and why.

 

[Osal]

Why would the cause of ISIS (which I agree was largely due to the US actions in Iraq) make their annihilation any less necessary?

Why is it necessary to annihilate ISIS?

 

[leibowde84]

That's a big claim (US / Iraq / ISIS), can you back that up?

Which claim? That the US withdrawing troops from Iraq was a major factor in the growth of ISIS?

 

[leibowde84]

Why is it necessary to annihilate ISIS?

Because their entire "game" is to target innocent civilians and causing destruction without any real aim. And all signs point to them continually doing this no matter what anyone does to placate them. Look at how they murder hostages without making any demands.

 

[Useless2015]

But, US troops leaving Iraq was a major cause of ISIS. And, all evidence leads to ISIS being completely unreasonable. So why would removing actual reasons for them to kill innocent people actually cause them to stop in your opinion. I feel like their only reasoning is to cause destruction and setup an intolerable "caliphate" rampant with human rights abuses.

How would they attract muslims to join them without any reason and motivation?

 

[leibowde84]

How would they attract muslims to join them without any reason and motivation?

I'm not saying that they would. They are large enough already. And, the ones that are already brainwashed will suffice for quite some time.

 

[icehorse]

Hi Augustus,

you said:

people who claim to use reason can be immune to critical thinking.

of course, who cares? Everything can be misapplied.

-
As far as science and morality goes, I would agree with Harris that the people who value science share other values:

- valuing evidence
- valuing reason and critical thinking
- valuing knowledge
- valuing parsimony

And of course we're all fallible humans. We all have biases (even Daniel Kahneman admits to having biases), the best we can do is admit to them and try to remain open to revising our stances when biases are discovered.

-
Let's say that violence is inevitable. Then we need to find the least disruptive outlets for this violence.

As far as your "humanist manifesto" - where did you get that? It's far more absolute than what I think or have seen?

Your stance that universal morals won't happen is just where we're gonna have to agree to disagree. If we can't make progress along these lines, I don't think any of us will have great-great-great grandchildren.

 

[icehorse]

Which claim? That the US withdrawing troops from Iraq was a major factor in the growth of ISIS?

Yes, that claim.

 

[icehorse]

I don't know of anything in the past that could help us save the planet. I don't think there's anything that can be done to fend of ecological disaster. All we can do is mitigate the damage to society.

Evolution teaches us nothing in this regard. History could have if we had started paying attention 100 years ago.

As we move forward from that disater we can learn about evolution as we watch what species adapt to the environment and which don't and why.

I would guess from this post that you're not an ecosystem scientist? If I'm correct, then I wonder why you'd presume to know what data such scientists might use to create solutions to protect the environment?

 

[leibowde84]

Yes, that claim.

Most of what I've learned came from soldiers who were on the ground in Iraq and predicted everything with ISIS before it became well-known. But, I will look for some actual supporting evidence (not just subjective claims) and get back to you.

 

[Useless2015]

I largely agree with this. Let's say that the US backs entirely out of the ME. (Which I think we should.) Do you think the strong countries in the ME will put together a coalition to defeat ISIS? (I would hope so.)

Well at this point, most of the Arab leaders are puppets of America. So they will probably form a coalition sure, it's no different from the current coalition tho. Lets be realistic lol.

 

[leibowde84]

Well at this point, most of the Arab leaders are puppets of America. So they will probably form a coalition sure, it's no different from the current coalition tho. Lets be realistic lol.

Whenever we take out any leaders in the Middle East, groups like ISIS grab control. The US getting out of the picture would be extremely complicated and, most-likely, impossible. Unless we are OK with more and more ISIS-like groups popping up everywhere.

 

[Useless2015]

I'm not saying that they would. They are large enough already. And, the ones that are already brainwashed will suffice for quite some time.

Just keep going according to plan then? Well than stop *****ing about how evil ISIS is.

 

[leibowde84]

Just keep going according to plan then? Well than stop *****ing about how evil ISIS is.

I don't know about evil, but ISIS is a group of sociopathic maniacs bent on destroying as much as they can and killing as many as they can. Whether that is due to mental issues or disease has yet to be determined, but it is important that we explicitly ridicule the group every chance we get.

 

[leibowde84]

Just keep going according to plan then? Well than stop *****ing about how evil ISIS is.

Also, as I said, the plan isn't working as is. So, we can't just keep going with it. And, the US is just about doing the least amount of bombing currently. So, maybe the best thing to do is fight ISIS more directly and with more force.

 

[Useless2015]

Whenever we take out any leaders in the Middle East, groups like ISIS grab control. The US getting out of the picture would be extremely complicated and, most-likely, impossible. Unless we are OK with more and more ISIS-like groups popping up everywhere.

What about staying in America? For a change..? You guys got alot of problems yourselves lol. Isn't a race war about to become reality in the US?