More Enviro Nonesense - Widening Highways Doesn’t Fix Traffic

[Stevicus]

I was there before 9-11, and after. People were more polite after 9-11. Last summer experienced predatory towing, one small confrontation in a doorway, but overall it was fine. Just know where you're going, don't hold anyone up, avoid talking to the crazies haha.

I just brushed up on my Robert Deniro impression and was able to get by.

 

[idea]

Yes, I've known New Yorkers who don't have cars or driver's licenses. I knew a guy from NY who moved to southern Arizona and rode a bicycle everywhere. He didn't have a license and didn't know how to drive a car. He seemed to be making enough money that he could have gotten a car and a license if he wanted to, but he just didn't want to.

In my visits to NYC, I didn't really have a problem with the traffic (at least not any more than in any other city), but it's the parking that's the real problem there.

Haha, yes, the parking. Quite impressive how many cars can be squeezed into a garage

 

[Wu Wei]

Even in NYC (@Wu Wei's stomping grounds),
I've used subways with no trouble.
And there were no road rage incidents.

It is not my stomping ground.... you may be surprised to know that NYC is only a small part of NYS..in area... also...you may want to sit down for this one.... NYC is not the capital of NYS either... I live darn near 200 miles north of NYC

And there has been trouble on the subways in NYC.... not as much now as there use to be.... but there are a whole lot more rats there now than there use to be too...road rage.... I think that is the norm for many NYC drivers and your considered weird if your not in rage while driving in NYC

 

[Heyo]

Is there some mad genius planning, or political correctness at work? Are they creating the "congestion" to allow for the "congestion pricing"? It is applied to every "crisis", whether environment, "equity" or public health. I think that's what at work with modern "engineering."

"Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity." - Halon's Razor

Traffic is the result of people needing or wanting to go from A to B. On average they find the most convenient way to do just that. A city has several options to direct traffic.
1. Reduce the want or need to be at B.
2. Improve on the preferred way to travel.
3. Dis-incentivise the disfavoured way to travel.

The easiest and cheapest way to do it is, of course, #3. When driving becomes inconvenient, more people will switch to public transportation by comparison. Even more will do so if you also employ #2.
That's the most simple answer without going into details.

There are some additional thoughts going into it. E.g. going to a place where a lot of people are jammed together in a 1 tonne contraption surrounding you on all sides is stupid. Congestion on the roads would instantly vanish if you take away the cars and replace them by bikes.

 

[Revoltingest]

Well, sure, there are downsides with any option, but I can see where some people might also consider it healthier to live in a semi-rural setting as opposed a more urban setting which might have more crime and other social ills that tend to affect quality of life.

Of course people have their reasons for what they do.
Do you not see the energy, environmental, & aesthetic
problems of covering farmland & natural areas with
more roads, driveways, & plywood mansions?

My only point was that this phenomenon is likely to continue. I've seen my own city double in size over the years, and areas which had very little settlement become populated. Then roads which were previously hardly traveled suddenly become choked with traffic - and then people demand more, wider roads. My observation is that the housing projects and subdivisions go up first - and then the roads come later - at least as a general rule. It seems they can never build the roads fast enough to accommodate the growth.

Of course the problem continues.
That's why we're discussing it.

 

[Revoltingest]

It is not my stomping ground.... you may be surprised to know that NYC is only a small part of NYS..in area... also...you may want to sit down for this one.... NYC is not the capital of NYS either... I live darn near 200 miles north of NYC

And there has been trouble on the subways in NYC.... not as much now as there use to be.... but there are a whole lot more rats there now than there use to be too...road rage.... I think that is the norm for many NYC drivers and your considered weird if your not in rage while driving in NYC

I have proof that you "stomp" around NYC....

 

[Revoltingest]

And I'm glad it went well for you. But those things do happen even if they didn't happen to you.

Bad things happen everywhere, eg, car
jackings, car accidents. But with what
relative frequencies & severity? And
@Wu Wei has never had trouble in his
daily subway commute.

 

[Revoltingest]

I've heard that it's been getting worse in NYC the past couple of years, as if they're reverting back to the bad old days of yore - the kind of NYC as depicted in Taxi Driver and The Warriors.

The news makes a great deal of events
when they want to. Movies exaggerate
& tell the stories they want. I urge some
skepticism.
I've many family members who use NYC
subways without such problems. So I
question the great fear of them by outsiders.

I've ridden them many times, & I hate them,
but that's mainly cuz I hate crowds.

 

[PureX]

We need to shrink and simplify the cars, not widen the roads.

 

[PureX]

I've heard that it's been getting worse in NYC the past couple of years, as if they're reverting back to the bad old days of yore - the kind of NYC as depicted in Taxi Driver and The Warriors.

I was often in NY back in those days. And I rode the subways there many times with no problems. I also lived for many years in Chicago and rode those subways with no problems. Never even saw any bad behavior that I recall.

Now days with a trillion guns out there floating around, there still seems to be less violence in the subways than in the streets. It's as if when everyone had to use them, they all tacitly agreed to behave while on them, more or less.

It wasn't at all like in the movies.

 

[Stevicus]

The news makes a great deal of events
when they want to. Movies exaggerate
& tell the stories they want. I urge some
skepticism.
I've many family members who use NYC
subways without such problems. So I
question the great fear of them by outsiders.

I've ridden them many times, & I hate them,
but that's mainly cuz I hate crowds.

I was often in NY back in those days. And I rode the subways there many times with no problems. I also lived for many years in Chicago and rode those subways with no problems. Never even saw any bad behavior that I recall.

Now days with a trillion guns out there floating around, there still seems to be less violence in the subways than in the streets. It's as if when everyone had to use them, they all tacitly agreed to behave while on them, more or less.

It wasn't at all like in the movies.

Major Crimes Rose 22 Percent in New York City, Even as Shootings Fell - The New York Times (nytimes.com)

NYPD Announces Citywide Crime Statistics for October 2022 | City of New York (nyc.gov)

Overall index crime in New York City increased in October 2022, by 5.9% compared with October 2021 (10,930 v. 10,324)

 

[Stevicus]

Of course people have their reasons for what they do.
Do you not see the energy, environmental, & aesthetic
problems of covering farmland & natural areas with
more roads, driveways, & plywood mansions?

Sure, but what are you complaining about it for? Don't you also live in a semi-rural area?

 

[PureX]

Major Crimes Rose 22 Percent in New York City, Even as Shootings Fell - The New York Times (nytimes.com)

NYPD Announces Citywide Crime Statistics for October 2022 | City of New York (nyc.gov)

Up 22% from when? ... The plague years when everyone was locked in their houses?

 

[Stevicus]

Up 22% from when? ... The plague years when everyone was locked in their houses?

Well, it's too soon to tell if it's meaningful, but I've seen other articles in the past year or two which would indicate a recent uptick in crime: Murder Rose by Almost 30% in 2020. It’s Rising at a Slower Rate in 2021. - The New York Times (nytimes.com)

As the chart here shows, the murder rate peaked around 1980, a slightly lower peak around 1990, then a sharp drop which mostly continued until the first part of the last decade. But it seems to be inching upward in the past few years.

Could it ever get back as high as it was in the 70s and 80s?

 

[JIMMY12345]

Widening Highways Doesn’t Fix Traffic. So Why Do We Keep Doing It?

Link to article is in headline. A few excerpts:


This view, that building highways causes congestion, is nonsense. What the critics of highway building are really aiming at is the ability of people to use cars at all. A part of the move to EV's is part of the same move, to cut mobility and living standards.

They don't like natural gas, a cleaner-burning fuel as a solution either. The problem with natural gas is that it makes carbon reduction too easy and doesn't accomplish their goals, i.e. control and self-abnegation (I'll leave to other posts whether there is hypocrisy involved. The solution, i.e. restricting mobility, lifestyles and choices, preceded identifying the problem, said to be "climate change." There is a school of thought, going back to the 1960's at least, that the West is too affluent. That affluence must, by this school of thought, be punished. These people feel virtuous by making a subliminal effort to punish the population of the West for the sin of affluence and waste, to wear the hairshirt if you will. See the Club of Rome report, written over a period between 1968 and 1972, affiliated with MIT (link). This punitive ideology has been kicking around for a while.

This is reflected in the move to prevent highway widening. It is also behind the move to deliberately "gel up" traffic. These ingenious steps designed to deliberately create traffic jams and make motorists' lives miserable include:

1. Shrinking five-lane avenues, such as 9th Avenue in NYC (with happens to lead to a major tunnel) to effectively two lanes when the bike lane and the bus lane aren't counted;
2. Traffic lights which restrict left turns from and to one-way streets;
3. Two bus lanes, 24/7, on Madison Avenue, creating middle-of-the-night traffic jams;
4. Blanket 25 mph speed limits;
5. Massive Citibike racks taking up a lane of traffic for almost the length of a block;
6. Traffic flow constriction on Third Avenue leading north to Queensboro Bridge;
7. Traffic flow constriction on Second Avenue leading to Queens Midtown Tunnel; and
8. The worst, concrete blocks reducing 43rd Street between Third and Lexington Avenues to one lane on the south side of the street for half the block, and the north side of the street for the other half?

Is there some mad genius planning, or political correctness at work? Are they creating the "congestion" to allow for the "congestion pricing"? It is applied to every "crisis", whether environment, "equity" or public health. I think that's what at work with modern "engineering."

One civil servant had a good idea.He recommended that the painted lane lines be shifted right a few centimetres.This meant the motorways had a massively extended life as the tyre thread shifted so did the load putting a more even distribution on the motorway at regular intervals.THATS HAT WE CALL A GOOD IDEA.

 

[Wu Wei]

I have proof that you "stomp" around NYC....

You have propaganda.... which is not proof

 

[Revoltingest]

Major Crimes Rose 22 Percent in New York City, Even as Shootings Fell - The New York Times (nytimes.com)

NYPD Announces Citywide Crime Statistics for October 2022 | City of New York (nyc.gov)

To post that NYC has crime problems isn't
relevant to an argument to de-concentrate
our population as it grows.
Loss of natural spaces, loss of farmland,
increasing paved surfaces, & increasing
commuting distances, & increasing energy
usage are problems too.
I say they're worse than hi-density building.

 

[Revoltingest]

Sure, but what are you complaining about it for?

Are you "meta-complaining"?

Don't you also live in a semi-rural area?

Yes, in a house already extant (built in 1875).
My needs differ from most homeowners, eg,
large storage buildings, truck+trailer access,
& proximity to my other business.

You might be suggesting hypocrisy for advocating
preference for urban living. But this would be an
error, because some people need more space than
found in dense cities, eg, farmers, large equipment
storage & transport.
For those who don't need to be in a rural area,
consider the many benefits to oneself & others
by living in a city.

 

[Revoltingest]

You have propaganda.... which is not proof

You deny that that isn't you in NYC?
@ChristineM saw you there.
Just ask her.

 

[ChristineM]

You deny that that isn't you in NYC?
@ChristineM saw you there.
Just ask her.

I see him stealing the Christmas presents designed for the orphans.

Breaking in...

And escaping with the present...