More than half of Americans say it should be legal for gays and lesbians to marry,

[horizon_mj1]

So just to be clear, your proposal is that same-sex couples have each and every right that opposite-sex couples do, including tax filing, social security, military widow's benefits, and so forth, but that we call it, "unified marriage" instead of just "marriage"?

Yes. Who are we to define the love between two people? There is a slight difference between purple and violate; one person will say it's purple, another it's violate. I am a happily married heterosexual who has known a few homosexual couples. They were as dedicated to each other as most people I have seen in the same type of relationship as myself. Some (not all) individuals that are homosexual can not by any means deny the way they are. There is scientific evidence backing this up; More Evidence that Homosexuality is Genetic . So are we to treat people that are genetically predisposition-ed to homosexuality as being just wrong, or can we see them as maybe just "different"? Is a child born with a mental disorder wrong, or are they different?

 

[horizon_mj1]

Whoever has a problem with calling a marriage a marriage if there aren't the right types of wee-wees involved can go ahead and call it something else. There's no reason for grown-ups to accommodate their sqeamishness by making arbitrary, nonsensical semantic legal distinctions between one married couple and another.

It offends me as a married heterosexual that you imply with your first sentence the resistance to gay equality is coming from married heterosexuals. It comes from the religious right, gay and straight, married and single.

I take it you fear when someone makes refined distinctions? I apologize, but after studying law for over 3 years, if distinctions are not made, relevance to action is not clear. How would you be able to define the difference between a summary offense, a misdemeanor offense, or a felony? I do not believe that the majority of gay marriage resistance comes "just from heterosexual" couples, but I can guarantee that the ones making the laws see it as not only a religious infringement, but also a personal one. The distinction would set some at ease, but as I stated earlier, it is highly unlikely that everyone will agree with same sex marriage.

 

[Penumbra]

I take it you fear when someone makes refined distinctions? I apologize, but after studying law for over 3 years, if distinctions are not made, relevance to action is not clear. How would you be able to define the difference between a summary offense, a misdemeanor offense, or a felony? I do not believe that the majority of gay marriage resistance comes "just from heterosexual" couples, but I can guarantee that the ones making the laws see it as not only a religious infringement, but also a personal one. The distinction would set some at ease, but as I stated earlier, it is highly unlikely that everyone will agree with same sex marriage.

A difference between things like misdemeanors and felonies are important, because they represent levels of illegality, and come with substantially different punishments and affects on one's record.

The difference between two men, two women, or one man and one woman getting married is nil. What reasonable argument could be put forth that states a distinction is necessary?

The people that feel personally infringed in their own heterosexual marriage when homosexuals get married need to grow up.

 

[horizon_mj1]

Speaking as a person in a "heterosexual" marriage myself, I define my marriage in terms of love and commitment, not gender. And I'd say that any definition of marriage that implies that either my wife or I are interchangeable with someone who has the same type of genitals sure wasn't the "original definition of marriage" that I was taught.

My marriage is a relationship between me and my wife, not between some generic "man" and "woman".


Two big reasons:

- even if the two different categories are treated equally now, making a distinction between them allows for inequality in the future.
- history has shown that "separate but equal" doesn't end up being actually equal.

Inequality exists by mere truth. Black is not equal to white, but they are both colors. How could there possible an entire equality when there never will be one (homosexual vs heterosexual)? Oh and one last question, please explain what a generic "man" and "woman" is; I truly do not understand what you mean by this.

 

[horizon_mj1]

A difference between things like misdemeanors and felonies are important, because they represent levels of illegality, and come with substantially different punishments and affects on one's record.

The difference between two men, two women, or one man and one woman getting married is nil. What reasonable argument could be put forth that states a distinction is necessary?

The people that feel personally infringed in their own heterosexual marriage when homosexuals get married need to grow up.

First off did you know that in some states certain types of sexual intercourse are illegal (it doesn't matter if it is in between same sex or different sex). I agree that people who are offended need to grow up. It in no way offends me if they would just call it marriage. I am stating facts from my personal observations of other people's reactions to the matter.

 

[Penumbra]

First off did you know that in some states certain types of sexual intercourse are illegal (it doesn't matter if it is in between same sex or different sex). I agree that people who are offended need to grow up.

Yes, I am aware. Some areas are more backwards than other areas.

It in no way offends me if they would just call it marriage. I am stating facts from my personal observations of other people's reactions to the matter.

I didn't say you need to grow up. I said that people who feel personally infringed by homosexual marriage need to grow up.

 

[Autodidact]

That is wrong.

Please cite the quranic verse that prohibits lesbianism.

 

[Autodidact]

Yes. Who are we to define the love between two people? There is a slight difference between purple and violate; one person will say it's purple, another it's violate. I am a happily married heterosexual who has known a few homosexual couples. They were as dedicated to each other as most people I have seen in the same type of relationship as myself. Some (not all) individuals that are homosexual can not by any means deny the way they are. There is scientific evidence backing this up; More Evidence that Homosexuality is Genetic . So are we to treat people that are genetically predisposition-ed to homosexuality as being just wrong, or can we see them as maybe just "different"? Is a child born with a mental disorder wrong, or are they different?

O.K., fine with me. I don't care what you call it. I care what it is.

 

[Bismillah]

Actually, only male homosexual relations.

[4:15] Those who commit adultery among your women, you must have four witnesses against them, from among you. If they do bear witness, then you shall keep such women in their homes until they die, or until GOD creates an exit for them.*

 

[Autodidact]

[4:15] Those who commit adultery among your women, you must have four witnesses against them, from among you. If they do bear witness, then you shall keep such women in their homes until they die, or until GOD creates an exit for them.*

I'm sorry, this seems to be about adultery, not lesbianism. They have nothing to do with each other.

 

[Bismillah]

That is because many scholars tie homosexuality with adultery and is reflected in the Tafsir of that interpretation.

And as for those who are guilty of an indecency from among your women, call to witnesses against them four (witnesses) from among you; then if they bear witness confine them to the houses until death takes them away or Allah opens some way for them. And as for the two who are guilty of indecency from among you, give them both a punishment; then if they repent and amend, turn aside from them; surely Allah is oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful. [4:15-16]

It is quite clearly referring to homosexuality (the words among your women).

[Quran 24:2] The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication flog each of them with a hundred stripes: let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if you believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.

 

[no-body]

[Quran 24:2] The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication flog each of them with a hundred stripes: let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if you believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.

such a beautiful religion

 

[Bismillah]

Aye let's all shift with the mentality of unabashedly having sex in public. Thank God some people quite proudly flaunt their lack of morality, better the mentality of those who raise objections.

 

[McBell]

Thanks for that great piece of wisdom o blessed one. The moment you make an actual statement call me back.

No need.
You are either to ignorant of Islam to have a productive conversation on the topic or you are intentionally being dishonest about Islam to the extent of making a conversation with you on the topic anything other than a test of patience for those who do know.

 

[no-body]

Yes clearly the most rational way to deal with someone expressing a natural but taboo human act in public is to beat them mercilessly in front of everyone.

 

[McBell]

A difference between things like misdemeanors and felonies are important, because they represent levels of illegality, and come with substantially different punishments and affects on one's record.

The difference between two men, two women, or one man and one woman getting married is nil. What reasonable argument could be put forth that states a distinction is necessary?

The people that feel personally infringed in their own heterosexual marriage when homosexuals get married need to grow up.

Seems to me that if the marriage of two people of the same sex that you do not know somehow infringes with your heterosexual marriage, then your heterosexual marriage has far to many OTHER problems to be worrying about whether or not two people you do not know are getting married. Regardless of their gender.

 

[Penumbra]

That is because many scholars tie homosexuality with adultery and is reflected in the Tafsir of that interpretation.

And as for those who are guilty of an indecency from among your women, call to witnesses against them four (witnesses) from among you; then if they bear witness confine them to the houses until death takes them away or Allah opens some way for them. And as for the two who are guilty of indecency from among you, give them both a punishment; then if they repent and amend, turn aside from them; surely Allah is oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful. [4:15-16]

It is quite clearly referring to homosexuality (the words among your women).

[Quran 24:2] The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication flog each of them with a hundred stripes: let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if you believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.

such a beautiful religion

Aye let's all shift with the mentality of unabashedly having sex in public. Thank God some people quite proudly flaunt their lack of morality, better the mentality of those who raise objections.

Yes, because obviously, the lack of flogging people for homosexuality and certain other sexual acts leads to unabashedly have sex in public. Beating people for those things is obviously the answer.

It's reasons like this why I'm not ashamed to say that, despite being politically incorrect, I do not have any respect for Islam.

 

[Autodidact]

That is because many scholars tie homosexuality with adultery and is reflected in the Tafsir of that interpretation.

Well that doesn't make any sense. What does lesbianism have to do with adultery?

And as for those who are guilty of an indecency from among your women, call to witnesses against them four (witnesses) from among you; then if they bear witness confine them to the houses until death takes them away or Allah opens some way for them. And as for the two who are guilty of indecency from among you, give them both a punishment; then if they repent and amend, turn aside from them; surely Allah is oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful. [4:15-16]

It is quite clearly referring to homosexuality (the words among your women).

It's clear that the entire quran is directed at men, which is weird.

It's also quite clear that nothing in the quran is quite clear, since it is so confusing and obscure.

Anyway, no, I don't think your interpretation is generally accepted. Don't forget, the qur'an was not written in English, and the words "among your women" don't appear in it. I think the idea is that those among your women who are indecent, etc.

[Quran 24:2] The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication flog each of them with a hundred stripes: let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if you believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.[/QUOTE]
Yes, it's barbaric, I agree, but it's still about adultery and fornication, not lesbianism.

Sorry, you're wrong. It's not in there.

Islamically speaking, two women can marry, and then are commanded to be faithful to one another.

 

[Autodidact]

Aye let's all shift with the mentality of unabashedly having sex in public. Thank God some people quite proudly flaunt their lack of morality, better the mentality of those who raise objections.

Did someone advocate having sex in public? I missed that post.

I agree, though, people like you who flaunt their lack of morality, their prejudice, their sheer brutality need others to raise objections.

 

[Bismillah]

You are either to ignorant of Islam to have a productive conversation on the topic or you are intentionally being dishonest about Islam to the extent of making a conversation with you on the topic anything other than a test of patience for those who do know.

Enlighten me or don't bother responding.

deal with someone expressing a natural but taboo human act in public

To be quite clear you are talking about sex in public?

the lack of flogging people for homosexuality and certain other sexual acts leads to unabashedly have sex in public. Beating people for those things is obviously the answer.

You are stating A leads to B and that Islam prescribes a punishment for A, when infact it does so for B. The point you are making is intangible.

Well that doesn't make any sense. What does lesbianism have to do with adultery?

It is thought to be caught up in the overarching definition of Zina.

It's clear that the entire quran is directed at men, which is weird.

I am sure picking and choosing whatever phrases ping in Islmaphobic sites gives you a sound grasp of the book.

It's also quite clear that nothing in the quran is quite clear, since it is so confusing and obscure.

Hardly. There is almost always a consensus in all four schools of thought and the only variance is implementation. Then again I expect your knowledge of fiqh to be largely irrelevant aside from the occasional law the concerns your specific aims.

Anyway, no, I don't think your interpretation is generally accepted. Don't forget, the qur'an was not written in English, and the words "among your women" don't appear in it. I think the idea is that those among your women who are indecent, etc.

I don't care what you think frankly. It is accepted by all four Sunni schools of thought and every major scholar of Islam.

The words that appear are interchangeable adultery, fornification, lewdness. Since the passage is directed at women it is talking about their actions which invariably includes Lesbianism either explicitly or implicitly, it does not matter.

Islamically speaking, two women can marry, and then are commanded to be faithful to one another.

Wrong completely given that there are Hadith that particularly discuss Lesbianism aside from the discussed verses.