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Mormon Church To US Supreme Court: Ban Gay Marriage

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SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Are gays ‘born that way’? Most Americans now say yes, but science says no
Homosexuality , Poll

PRINCETON, NJ, May 20, 2015 (LifeSiteNews.com) -- For the first time, a majority of Americans say that homosexuals are "born that way."

According to the latest Gallup poll, 51 percent of Americans say that people are born gay or lesbian, while only 30 percent say outside factors such as upbringing and environment determine sexual orientation.

However, science would not bear that out. No fewer than eight major studies from around the world have found homosexuality is not a genetic condition.

Peter Sprigg of the Family Research Council says that these numerous, rigorous studies of identical twins have now made it impossible to argue that there is a "gay gene." If homosexuality were inborn and predetermined, then when one identical twin is homosexual, the other should be, as well.

Yet one study from Yale and Columbia Universities found homosexuality common to only 6.7 percent of male identical twins and 5.3 percent of female identical twins.

The low rate of common homosexuality in identical twins – around six percent – is easily explained by nurture, not nature.
First of all, assuming this were true, it doesn't in any way demonstrate that gay people (all people, really) are not born the way they are.

Secondly, we've been around the block on this several times just within this thread already. Now you're going to post this fresh as though that never happened? That's not fair.








 

Serenity7855

Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
Oh? Perhaps you'd like to be reminded of these quotes?

(in reference to gay couples)

You, yourself said that "there are no mistakes in the bible," and that, as a Christian, you follow the bible. Therefore, we can only conclude that you believe that whatever the bible says is true. Therefore, since you claim that the bible says the above, then you believe the above. It, therefore, follows that you do not support homosexual marriage, or homosexuality.

This is what you have accused me of saying.

Homosexual marriages are not to be recognized. Homosexuals are abnormal. That's bullying.

This is what I actually said.

It is not a family as set down by the Christian God.

1.Where have I said "Homosexual marriages are not to be recognized. Homosexuals are abnormal."

2. This is an apathetic statement that cannot be interpreted. I has no other meaning or insinuation attached to it other than what it say.

This is what I actually said, again you will note, the words you accused me of saying are not present

The pure fact that it is contained within that Holy Canon is authority to confirm that Homosexuality is a heinous abominable sin, punishable by death under the Mosaic law, and an abomination in the eyes of God. To a Christian the principle is set in stone with the only person able to change it being Jesus Christ himself, and not a relatively hand full of activists trying to dupe the human race with duplicitous.

Homosexuality is not punishable by death, anal sex, being a sexual perversion, is. Homosexuality is not a sin, sexual perversion is. It would, therefore, be all to obviously, to the discerning mind, that I was referring to anal sex when I said "Homosexuality is a heinous abominable sin, punishable by death under the Mosaic law"

You are demonstrating for me that my Judgement about your claim to be a Christian who has witness the prompting of the Holy Ghost is in fact true. Your manipulations of the scriptures, along side your fiendish intentions to label me a homophobic, is by far the worst intentional underhanded tactic that I have ever witnessed. You cunning sophistry reminds me so much of the temptation of Eve by the Devil. "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves." For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.

3. The Bible speaks of sexual sin, not homosexuality. I could have only meant sexual sin.

I stand falsely accused by you. Your assertion that I said "

"Homosexual marriages are not to be recognized. Homosexuals are abnormal." Your unfounded slurs against me is completely without substance and intended to inflict upon me the maximum distress and anguish. Shame on you.

You stand as someone who tries to appear as a servant of God but you preach the doctrines of men.

Mark 7:7

6. And He said to them, "Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written: This people honor me with their lips, But their hearts is far away from me. 7. But in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrine the precepts of men. 8."Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men."

Isaiah 29:13

The Lord says: "These people come near to me with their mouth and honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Their worship of me is based on merely human rules they have been taught.
 

Serenity7855

Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
Here's your evidence: Ask a person who has ever found themselves attracted to anyone, ever. Ask them if they had a choice in the matter. There is your answer.

You and I can surmise as long as we like, however, how can you argue with the fact that no fewer than eight major studies from around the world have found homosexuality is not a genetic condition.

Are gays ‘born that way’? Most Americans now say yes, but science says no
Homosexuality , Poll

PRINCETON, NJ, May 20, 2015 (LifeSiteNews.com) -- For the first time, a majority of Americans say that homosexuals are "born that way."

According to the latest Gallup poll, 51 percent of Americans say that people are born gay or lesbian, while only 30 percent say outside factors such as upbringing and environment determine sexual orientation.

However, science would not bear that out. No fewer than eight major studies from around the world have found homosexuality is not a genetic condition.

Peter Sprigg of the Family Research Council says that these numerous, rigorous studies of identical twins have now made it impossible to argue that there is a "gay gene." If homosexuality were inborn and predetermined, then when one identical twin is homosexual, the other should be, as well.

Yet one study from Yale and Columbia Universities found homosexuality common to only 6.7 percent of male identical twins and 5.3 percent of female identical twins.

The low rate of common homosexuality in identical twins – around six percent – is easily explained by nurture, not nature.
 

Serenity7855

Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
I suspect, from reading other posts of hers, that she does, indeed, know about Christianity. She knows enough to know that, in Mark 9, the father said, "I believe, help my unbelief." She knows enough to know that Jesus accepted the thief's confession on the cross, that Jesus accepted and ate with sinners, that Jesus forgave the prostitute -- all of which were "swine" in the eyes of the "righteous." Just as homosexuals are "swine" before today's "righteous." Jesus would not only attend their weddings, he would turn their water into wine -- and that wine would be *FABULOUS!*

I hope you do not mind, but I was looking for an answer from the person that I posted to, unless that poster has given you permission to speak on her behalf as one of those you protec and care for
 

Serenity7855

Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
You appear to still be doing that. I wonder who the playground bullies really are in this scenario? Wouldn't they be the ones in the majority who insist upon beating up on the weaker, nerdy kid -- in this case, the homosexual who only wants the System to recognize the validity of her/hes relationships? And you call the mediators into question?

Again, you misrepresent me. I am an upholder of the commandments of God, because I am a Christian and that is what is expected of me, I am not an anti-Christ who goes contrary to His teachings. I have no problems with two people loving each other. You keep falsely accusing me and I will keep denying you false assertions.
 

Serenity7855

Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
That may be part of the problem. A balance is needed between reading the bible and working with the oppressed and ostracized. Part of the problem is that, when you read the bible, I suspect you tend to objectify homosexuals, instead of seeing them as real, whole individuals. Otherwise, your homosexual sisters and brothers wouldn't be a "them" to you.

I hope you do not mind, but I was looking for an answer from the person that I posted to, unless that poster has given you permission to speak on her behalf as one of those you protec and care for
 

Serenity7855

Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
No, she knows she was born gay.


No it doesn't. The fact that she's gay probably has little to do with why she is no longer a Christian. Is your own reason why you're no longer Mormon because you're gay?


You did insult me. therefore, it's not a false allegation. It's a recognized fact, in print for all to see.


There are plenty mistakes in the bible. One of the most glaring is that Genesis says that the sky is a rigid dome, upon which are fixed the sun, moon and stars, and the whole thing rotates around a disc-shaped earth. That's blatantly a MISTAKE.


I don't think the bible is the "word of God," and I'm a Christian. Your "logic" is faulty here.

Fact: the bible makes a very few statements concerning the morality of same-sex activity.
Fact: scholars and anthropologists believe that the ancients had no concept of homosexuality as an orientation.
Fact: only within the last 20 or so years has the mental health community concluded that homosexuality is a normal and healthy orientation.
Fact: people skew scripture all the time to fit their world view -- and that's been going on since the beginning.
Fact: many valid biblical interpretations are possible.

We prefer an interpretation that speaks to the hospitality, love, and acceptance we find as the foundation of biblical teaching. We find that such an interpretation aligns with an ethic of non-discrimination. We believe (if we are Christian) that Jesus would support such legislation as has been passed to allow homosexuals to be treated as whole human beings, their orientation notwithstanding.

I hope you do not mind, but I was looking for an answer from the person that I posted to, unless that poster has given you permission to speak on her behalf as one of those you protec and care for
 

Serenity7855

Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
Because you're fine with gays not being allowed to get married. You, yourself have said on more than one occasion that you do not recognize homosexual marriage. Perhaps there are others who aren't "normal" enough to get married, according to you?

I hope you do not mind, but I was looking for an answer from the person that I posted to, unless that poster has given you permission to speak on her behalf as one of those you protec and care for
 

Serenity7855

Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
You appear to still be doing that. I wonder who the playground bullies really are in this scenario? Wouldn't they be the ones in the majority who insist upon beating up on the weaker, nerdy kid -- in this case, the homosexual who only wants the System to recognize the validity of her/hes relationships? And you call the mediators into question?

I hope you do not mind, but I was looking for an answer from the person that I posted to, unless that poster has given you permission to speak on her behalf as one of those you protec and care for
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
You and I can surmise as long as we like, however, how can you argue with the fact that no fewer than eight major studies from around the world have found homosexuality is not a genetic condition.

Are gays ‘born that way’? Most Americans now say yes, but science says no
Homosexuality , Poll

PRINCETON, NJ, May 20, 2015 (LifeSiteNews.com) -- For the first time, a majority of Americans say that homosexuals are "born that way."

According to the latest Gallup poll, 51 percent of Americans say that people are born gay or lesbian, while only 30 percent say outside factors such as upbringing and environment determine sexual orientation.

However, science would not bear that out. No fewer than eight major studies from around the world have found homosexuality is not a genetic condition.

Peter Sprigg of the Family Research Council says that these numerous, rigorous studies of identical twins have now made it impossible to argue that there is a "gay gene." If homosexuality were inborn and predetermined, then when one identical twin is homosexual, the other should be, as well.

Yet one study from Yale and Columbia Universities found homosexuality common to only 6.7 percent of male identical twins and 5.3 percent of female identical twins.

The low rate of common homosexuality in identical twins – around six percent – is easily explained by nurture, not nature.
So what? The collection of studies we have on this indicate that genetics is but one component that plays a part in determining sexuality for all sexual identities.

But like I said above, even if these studies you are referencing are 100% true and accurate, they do not demonstrate that people are not born gay. If you think they do, please explain why.

The Family Research Council is not a scientific organization and they oppose and lobby against rights for the LGBT community. So they are certainly not an objective source of information on this subject. The Southern Poverty Law Center designates them as a hate group.

And once again, you've already posted these studies long ago and they have been refuted and countered by multiple posters. Attempting to post them now as though we haven't been over this already isn't fair.
Pretty much everyone who has been a part of this discussion thus far have acknowledged the apparent fact that there is more involved in human sexual development that just genetics.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Are gays ‘born that way’? Most Americans now say yes, but science says no
Homosexuality , Poll

PRINCETON, NJ, May 20, 2015 (LifeSiteNews.com) -- For the first time, a majority of Americans say that homosexuals are "born that way."

According to the latest Gallup poll, 51 percent of Americans say that people are born gay or lesbian, while only 30 percent say outside factors such as upbringing and environment determine sexual orientation.

However, science would not bear that out. No fewer than eight major studies from around the world have found homosexuality is not a genetic condition.

Peter Sprigg of the Family Research Council says that these numerous, rigorous studies of identical twins have now made it impossible to argue that there is a "gay gene." If homosexuality were inborn and predetermined, then when one identical twin is homosexual, the other should be, as well.

Yet one study from Yale and Columbia Universities found homosexuality common to only 6.7 percent of male identical twins and 5.3 percent of female identical twins.

The low rate of common homosexuality in identical twins – around six percent – is easily explained by nurture, not nature.
Eight studies that are touted by a Conservative Christian group. But there are far more studies that indicate otherwise.
https://www.theguardian.com/science...ht-track-were-born-this-way-lets-deal-with-it
n a recent Guardian article , Simon Copland argued that it is very unlikely people are born gay (or presumably any other sexual orientation). Scientific evidence says otherwise. It points strongly to a biological origin for our sexualities. Finding evidence for a biological basis should not scare us or undermine gay, lesbian and bisexual (LGB) rights (the studies I refer to do not include transgendered individuals, so I’ll confine my comments to lesbian, gay and bisexual people). I would argue that understanding our fundamental biological nature should make us more vigorous in promoting LGB rights.

Let’s get some facts and perspective on the issue. Evidence from independent research groups who studied twins shows that genetic factors explain about 25-30% of the differences between people in sexual orientation (heterosexual, gay, lesbian, and bisexual). Twin studies are a first look into the genetics of a trait and tell us that there are such things as “genes for sexual orientation” (I hate the phrase “gay gene”). Three gene finding studies showed that gay brothers share genetic markers on the X chromosome; the most recent study also found shared markers on chromosome 8. This latest research overcomes the problems of three prior studies which did not find the same results.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/23/homosexuality--choice-born-science_n_2003361.html
In 1991, a study published in the journal Science seemed to show that the hypothalamus, which controls the release of sex hormones from the pituitary gland, in gay men differs from the hypothalamus in straight men. The third interstitial nucleus of the anterior hypothalamus (INAH3) was found to be more than twice as large in heterosexual men as in homosexual men
...
A later study, which was performed in 2001, showed that HIV status has no significant effect on the INAH3. This study, which also used brain tissue from autopsies, did not reveal any significant difference between the size of the INAH3 in gay men and straight men. It did, however, show that in gay men, neurons in the INAH3 are packed more closely together than in straight men.

PET and MRI studies performed in 2008 have shown that the two halves of the brain are more symmetrical in homosexual men and heterosexual women than in heterosexual men and homosexual women. These studies have also revealed that connections in the amygdalas of gay men resemble those of straight women; in gay women, connections in the amygdala resemble those of straight men. The amygdala has many receptors for sex hormones and is associated with the processing of emotions.
http://www.livescience.com/50058-being-gay-not-a-choice.html
Most scientists would disagree. Years of research suggest that people can't change their sexual orientation because they want to, and that trying can cause mental anguish. What's more, some studies suggest that being gay may have a genetic or biological basis.
...
For instance, a 2014 study in the journal Psychological Medicine showed that a gene on the X chromosome (one of the sex chromosomes) called Xq28 and a gene on chromosome 8 seem to be found in higher prevalence in men who are gay.
...
A 2012 study proposed that epigenetic changes, or alterations in marks on DNA that turn certain genes on and off, may play a role in homosexuality. This type of gene regulation isn't as stable as DNA, and can be switched on and off by environmental factors or conditions in the womb during prenatal development. But this so-called epigenome can also be passed on from generation to generation, which would explain why being gay seems to run in families, even when a single gene can't be pinpointed.
...
One study found that gay men are biologically predisposed to help care for their nieces and nephews.
...
On that, studies are clear. Gay conversion therapy is ineffective, several studies have found, and the American Psychological Association now says such treatment is harmful and can worsen feelings of self-hatred.

For men, studies suggest that orientation is fixed by the time the individual reaches puberty. Women show greater levels of "erotic plasticity," meaning their levels of attraction are more significantly shaped by culture, experience and love than is the case for men. However, even women who switch from gay to straight lifestyles don't stop being attracted to women, according to a 2012 study in the journal Archives of Sexual Behavior.
http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2015/10/homosexuality-may-be-caused-chemical-modifications-dna
Indeed, over the past 2 decades, researchers have turned up considerable evidence that homosexuality isn't a lifestyle choice, but is rooted in a person's biology and at least in part determined by genetics. Yet actual “gay genes” have been elusive.

A new study of male twins, scheduled for presentation at the annual meeting of the American Society of Human Genetics (ASHG) in Baltimore, Maryland, today, could help explain that paradox. It finds that epigenetic effects, chemical modifications of the human genome that alter gene activity without changing the DNA sequence, may have a major influence on sexual orientation.
...
In a 2012 paper, Rice and his colleagues suggested that such unerased epi-marks might lead to homosexuality when they are passed on from father to daughter or from mother to son. Specifically, they argued that inherited marks that influence a fetus's sensitivity to testosterone in the womb might “masculinize” the brains of girls and “feminize” those of boys, leading to same-sex attraction.

Such ideas inspired Tuck Ngun, a postdoc in Vilain's lab, to study the methylation patterns at 140,000 regions in the DNA of 37 pairs of male identical twins who were discordant—meaning that one was gay and the other straight—and 10 pairs who were both gay. After several rounds of analysis—with the help of a specially developed machine-learning algorithm—the team identified five regions in the genome where the methylation pattern appears very closely linked to sexual orientation. One gene is important for nerve conduction, whereas another has been implicated in immune functions.
Funny how I can pull from multiple sources that all have multiple studies, but what you posted is being heavily circulated throughout Conservatives sources - sources that make no mention to the other studies that are far more numerous than their eight that demonstrate they are wrong.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Absolutely. And they should be able to discriminate on other basis, including things that would leave me out.
So my point stands: Gayness is not "unsuitable" for parenting -- no matter what one's prehistoric doctrine says.
 

Scott C.

Just one guy
So my point stands: Gayness is not "unsuitable" for parenting -- no matter what one's prehistoric doctrine says.

Whether you are right or wrong in that statement is irrelevant to my point of view on the subject that I've been discussing.

I don't care to debate the merits of having a male father and female mother, as opposed to gay parents. I also don't care to debate Christian or more specifically LDS doctrine, on homosexuality. I realize this is a gay marriage thread, but I jumped in to comment on what I consider to be the rights of birth parents, working with church adoption agencies. All of my comments have been to defend the rights of birth mothers and churches to make adoption choices with limited government intervention. I think I've made my points and provided my reasoning and I'm starting to repeat myself. My comments and concerns probably would fit best in another thread.
 

Prestor John

Well-Known Member
The Catholic Church is a church, not an adoption agency.

Catholic Charities USA (an affiliate of the Catholic Church) is a fully licensed Child Placing Agency.

You have been misinformed.

They took on that roll to add to their rolls.

The National Conference of Catholic Charities (later named Catholic Charities USA) was formed in 1910 to better help impoverished Catholic immigrants from Europe. Approximately one half of Catholics in the U.S. at that time (~7.5 million) lived in poverty.

Before then each parish had their own independent charity programs which were unable to take on such an enormous task. This conference was held because they believed that if they united their efforts that they could do more for the people. They were right.

You have been misinformed.

They require a faith commitment for adoption, - which is illegal.

Access to Catholic Charities USA adoption services requires no faith commitment.

You have been misinformed.

If they discriminate against homosexuals in the adoption arena - they should lose any right to administer adoption services.

Adoption laws and restrictions are mostly decided by the State. Adoption agencies can reject prospective parents for a variety of reasons (depending on which State they are in) which can include the age of the prospective parents and if one or both of the prospective parents have a disability.

The U.S. Constitution does not provide a fundamental right to adopt. You should read up on the Lindley v. Sullivan case. It clarifies a lot about Adoption Law. I will quote a couple portions,

"Because of its statutory basis, adoption differs from natural procreation in a most important and striking way. See Smith, 431 U.S. at 846, 97 S.Ct. at 2110-11. Adoption always involves the weighing and balancing of many competing interests. The rights of a couple to adopt must be reconciled with the state's interest in protecting the existing rights of the natural parents, as well as in securing ultimately the welfare of the child."

"Among the factors a court must consider in determining whether the proposed adoption is in the child's best interest are the religious belief of the adopters and adoptee, as well as the physical and mental health of all individuals involved and the background, race, ethnic heritage, behavior, age and living arrangements of the adopters."

"Because the adoption process is entirely conditioned upon the combination of so many variables, we are constrained to conclude that there isno fundamental right to adopt. We also decline to find that the interest in adopting a child falls within the marital privacy right, since the statute requires adopters to submit their personal lives to intensive scrutiny before the adoption may be approved. Thus, we can find neither a fundamental right nor a privacy interest in adopting a child." (Italics and bold added)

http://openjurist.org/889/f2d/124/lindley-for-lindley-v-w-sullivan-md

You can argue that an adoption agency that rejects prospective homosexual parents is guilty of discrimination, but you would have to prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that the sole reason for the rejection was based on the couple’s sexual orientation.

Considering that the adoption process is “entirely conditioned upon the combination of so many variables”, which includes the religious views of the birth parents and the child, it would be very difficult to prove that a homosexual couple was rejected based on their sexual orientation and not based on religious preferences.

Also, you would still need to consider the “child’s best interest” which is obviously vague in interpretation and depth, but would still need to include “the religious belief of the adopters and adoptee”.

Considering that the U.S. does not consider adoption to be a basic human right, I think it would be pretty hard for you or anyone to prove discrimination.

These situations are not as “cut and dry” as you propose.

And AGAIN - no one is forcing the church to change its outdated beliefs. They can hold them as long as they wish.

You do not have the authority to declare that the Catholic Church’s (or anyone’s) beliefs are “outdated”.

You have also been placed in a contradiction because you claim that the Catholic Church can “hold” to their beliefs as long as they wish, but if their belief is the invalidity of “same-sex marriage”, then they would need to reject all those who have entered into a “same-sex marriage” as prospective parents.

Are they free to believe what they would and then “hold” to that belief or not?

Lastly, if someone is asking the Catholic Church to “recognize” a “same-sex marriage”, then that person is asking the Catholic Church to change their beliefs regarding marriage.

You just can’t get around that fact.

However - as a registered adoption agency they have to comply with the law.

You said above that the Catholic Church was “not an adoption agency”, yet here you are confessing that it is a “registered adoption agency”.

Do you even have a proper grasp on your own opinion?

My first question to you would be – “What law?” Different States have different laws concerning adoption.

If the “law” you are referring to is the demand that the Catholic Church recognize “same-sex marriage”, then the Catholic Church cannot comply. It would be against their beliefs. It would be religious persecution if the Federal government required them to act against their beliefs.

Fortunately, marriage is not the sole determining factor in the adoption process.

Next, I would ask you – “Are all adoption agencies required to accept all prospective parents, despite the “combination of so many variables” that was mentioned above?”

No, depending on which State they are in, an adoption agency can reject prospective parents for a variety of reasons.

Then I would ask – “What if the birth parents were very religious and requested that the child they were putting up for adoption not be placed in a “same-sex marriage” household? What if the child was religious and believed homosexuality was a sin?”

When considering what is in the “best interest of the child” the religious beliefs of the birth parents and the child must be considered.

My last question - What if a same-sex couple was rejected after it was determined that they were wholly inadequate when it came to raising a child? Would you still consider it “discrimination”?
 

Prestor John

Well-Known Member
They accept taxpayer money from state and local governments, the attached obligation is to treat all equally.

I personally believe that this is the best argument that someone could make on your side of this issue.

However, I still don’t believe that this argument has merit for several reasons.

The first thing that needs to be mentioned is the fact that the Catholic Church had been offering adoption services in this country several decades before they had ever accepted any government funding. The first Catholic sponsored placing of children in homes (rather than orphanages) was in 1898 by the Catholic Home Bureau which had been organized in New York by the St. Vincent de Paul Society.

After the National Conference of Catholic Charities was formed in 1910 they expanded and grew and offered many services to the poor and destitute. They accomplished a lot, but I won’t mention them all here. There is too much. You can read more about the things they accomplished here:

http://www.socialwelfarehistory.com/religious/catholic-charities-usa/

The first instances of the National Conference of Catholic Charities receiving any government funds was during the Great Depression as part of President Franklin D. Roosevelt’s “New Deal”. It was the Federal government that reached out to faith-based organizations (FBOs) during this time of crisis.

In his October 4th, 1933 address to the National Conference of Catholic Charities, FDR said,

“The Federal Government has inaugurated new measures of relief on a vast scale, but the Federal Government cannot, and does not intend to, take over the whole job. Many times we have insisted that every community and every State must first do its share.

Out of this picture we are developing a new science of social treatment and rehabilitation—working it out through an unselfish partnership, a partnership between great church and private social service agencies and the agencies of Government itself. From the point of view of fixing responsibilities, the prevention of overlapping, the prevention of waste, and the coordination of effort, we are, all of us, making enormous strides with every passing day. But back of that cooperative leadership that is showing itself so splendidly in every part of the country, there are two other vital reasons for the maintenance of the efforts of the churches and other non-governmental groups in every part of the land.

The first of these is that much as you and I strive for the broad principles of social justice, the actual application of these principles is of necessity an individual thing—a thing that touches individual lives and individual families. No governmental organization in all history has been able to keep the human touch to the same extent as church and private effort. Government can do a great many things better than private associations or citizens, but in the last analysis, success in this kind of personal work in which you are engaged depends upon personal contact between neighbor and neighbor.

The other reason lies in the fact that the people of the United States still recognize, and, I believe, recognize with a firmer faith than ever before, that spiritual values count in the long run more than material values. Those people in other lands, and I say this advisedly, those in other lands who have sought by edict or by law to eliminate the right of mankind to believe in God and to practice that belief, have, in every known case, discovered sooner or later that they are tilting in vain against an inherent, essential, undying quality, indeed necessity, of the human race—a quality and a necessity which in every century have proved an essential to permanent progress—and I speak of religion.” (Bold and italics added)

You can read the entire address here:

http://teachingamericanhistory.org/...he-national-conference-of-catholic-charities/

FDR recognized the value of FBO and other private organizations. It was the Federal government that first reached out to FBOs because these organizations had already developed an efficient means of distribution and they and a personal connection with their communities. With government funding these organizations could accomplish more and take on more, relieving the Federal, State and local governments from the burden of managing these extensive services.

This reliance of the U.S. government on FBOs steadily increased over the decades. Especially with President Lyndon B. Johnson’s “War on Poverty” in 1964.

Even though this union of Church and State accomplished a lot of good it was not without its bumps. Some FBOs were targets of discrimination when competing for government contracts. Also many FBOs had been forced to remove sacred symbols or artworks from their buildings before they could be considered for government funding. These and other violations of the First Amendment caused other FBOs to refrain from receiving government funds, because they felt that it could compromise their religious beliefs.

For example, from 1985-1995, Catholic Charities of Boston had been contracted with the State’s Department of Social Services to support their adoption services program. During that time they had placed thirteen (13) children with homosexual couples. This was obviously a violation of their beliefs, but they felt compelled to do it because they received State funding.

To address these growing issues, there was a reform made to welfare law in 1996 called The Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Reconciliation Act. It contained something called the “Charitable Choice” provision.

This provision was written to encourage FBOs to consider offering federally funded social services to the public. It outlined how the FBOs religious freedoms would be protected while they offered these federally funded social services. The four essential principles of this provision were,

  • Faith-based providers are eligible to provide federally-funded social services on the same basis as any other providers, neither excluded nor included because they are religious, too religious or of a different religion.
  • The religious character of faith-based providers is protected by allowing them to retain control over the definition, development, practice, and expression of their religious beliefs. Neither federal nor state government can require a religious provider to alter its form of internal governance or remove religious art, icons, scripture or other symbols in order to be a program participant.
  • In regard to rendering assistance, religious organizations shall not discriminate against an individual on the basis of religion, a religious belief, or refusal to actively participate in a religious practice. If an individual objects to the religious character of a program, a secular alternative must be provided.
  • All government funds must be used to fulfill the public social service goals, and no direct government funding can be diverted to inherently religious activities such as worship, sectarian instruction, and proselytization.
The FBO, and only the FBO, can define what they believe. Such as “marriage” being only between one man and one woman.

The third principle says that while the FBO is “rendering assistance” they shall not “discriminate” against an individual on the basis of “a religious belief”, however it also clearly states that if someone “objects” to the “religious character” of the program (such as Catholics believing that homosexuality is a sin and not recognizing “same-sex marriage”) that person can receive a “secular alternative”.

Therefore, before you or anyone starts crying out “discrimination!” you have to consider if a “secular alternative” was offered.

The Catholic Church has every right to believe what they want and to act on that belief as long as that belief does not infringe upon someone else’s rights. And considering that adoption is not a fundamental right (proven above) and adoption agencies can reject prospective parents if they feel that it was not in the “best interest” of the child, where is the “discrimination”?

Where is the “discrimination” when the FBO directs prospective parents to other organizations that could help them?

Even though this provision had been added to encourage FBOs participation in offering government funded social service, FBOs were still cautious to participate.

This led to the White House Office of Faith-Based and Community Initiatives executive order which had been established by George W. Bush in 2001. This initiative was designed to strengthen faith-based and community organizations. It would essentially expand their capacity to provide federally funded social services. The Feds wanted FBOs to reconsider their decisions to not partner with government.

Many FBOs were afraid to receive government funds because they felt that it would invite government-imposed limits on their religious expression. A clear example would be demanding that the Catholic Church “recognize” “same-sex marriages” and therefore consider them as prospective adoptive parents.

The last thing I am going to say about this topic is about the fourth principle mentioned above, “no direct government funding can be diverted to inherently religious activities such as worship, sectarian instruction, and proselytization”.

In 2010, Catholic Charities USA made almost $5 billion, and $2.9 billion of that was federal tax-payer money. This means that $2.1 billion of their income came from donations and other investments. Also, we need to consider that prospective parents pay various adoption fees throughout the adoption process.

Just because the FBO is receiving government funding that does not necessarily mean that the government is directly paying for all the services they provide.

The question I pose to you is if the FBO does not use any “direct government funding” for their adoption services, but uses money from donations and adoption fees to pay for those services instead, do you feel that they should still be required to offer adoptions to same-sex couples in violation of their beliefs?

In summary, the Catholic Church was offering adoption and other services long before they received any government funding. They began receiving government funds at the behest of the government to help the nation in a time of crisis. The government could not handle the task. A provision was given so that a FBO religious beliefs would not be compromised while they offered these services. If anyone has an issue with the beliefs of the FBO, they can receive a secular alternative.

The government begged the Catholic Church for help and promised that their religious beliefs would not be compromised while they gave that help. The Catholic Church does not need government funding for it to function and offer social services.

However, without government funding, less and less people are going to receive aide and local, State and Federal governments are going to need to hire and train and manage those services which will cost more money.

If they don't wish to comply with the law, - they should give up the licenses.

Which law states that they have to give children to prospective homosexual parents?
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
This is what you have accused me of saying.

Homosexual marriages are not to be recognized. Homosexuals are abnormal. That's bullying.

This is what I actually said.

It is not a family as set down by the Christian God.

1.Where have I said "Homosexual marriages are not to be recognized. Homosexuals are abnormal."

2. This is an apathetic statement that cannot be interpreted. I has no other meaning or insinuation attached to it other than what it say.

This is what I actually said, again you will note, the words you accused me of saying are not present

The pure fact that it is contained within that Holy Canon is authority to confirm that Homosexuality is a heinous abominable sin, punishable by death under the Mosaic law, and an abomination in the eyes of God. To a Christian the principle is set in stone with the only person able to change it being Jesus Christ himself, and not a relatively hand full of activists trying to dupe the human race with duplicitous.

Homosexuality is not punishable by death, anal sex, being a sexual perversion, is. Homosexuality is not a sin, sexual perversion is. It would, therefore, be all to obviously, to the discerning mind, that I was referring to anal sex when I said "Homosexuality is a heinous abominable sin, punishable by death under the Mosaic law"

You are demonstrating for me that my Judgement about your claim to be a Christian who has witness the prompting of the Holy Ghost is in fact true. Your manipulations of the scriptures, along side your fiendish intentions to label me a homophobic, is by far the worst intentional underhanded tactic that I have ever witnessed. You cunning sophistry reminds me so much of the temptation of Eve by the Devil. "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves." For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.

3. The Bible speaks of sexual sin, not homosexuality. I could have only meant sexual sin.

I stand falsely accused by you. Your assertion that I said "

"Homosexual marriages are not to be recognized. Homosexuals are abnormal." Your unfounded slurs against me is completely without substance and intended to inflict upon me the maximum distress and anguish. Shame on you.

You stand as someone who tries to appear as a servant of God but you preach the doctrines of men.

Mark 7:7

6. And He said to them, "Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written: This people honor me with their lips, But their hearts is far away from me. 7. But in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrine the precepts of men. 8."Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men."

Isaiah 29:13

The Lord says: "These people come near to me with their mouth and honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Their worship of me is based on merely human rules they have been taught.
Here's my answer to you:
They are acceptations to the rule, mis-fits
(IOW, abnormal)

They act outside of the envelope and the circle of life.
(IOW, abnormal)

They indulge in anal sex, which is abnormal. Many take poppers to facilitate anal sex. Many take recreation drugs and alcohol to reduce their inhibitions. Some use small animals to insert into their rectum, among other phallic objects. a questionably high proportion of pedophiles are also homosexual.
IOW, you're equating the act with the orientation -- an "abnormal" act equates to an "abnormal" orientation.

That is my educated opinion, it is anecdotal, however, if you want a links then here it is.

WHY HOMOSEXUALITY IS ABNORM
AL
Apparently, since you're using this source to bolster your argument, you agree with it.

The Devil's Misfits: The True Face of Homosexuality - My Testimony
Same here. You agree with this.

You, of course, realize that your statements are not only explicit, they're also implicit. By stating what you have stated about the bible and your allegiance to it, by citing these sources, you imply that you are saying what they're saying. Don't be picayune trying to defend yourself. You may fool yourself in saying, "I don't have a problem with homosexuals," but you're not fooling anyone else here, because everyone else here is reading between those lines, and picking out what you're implying.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
I hope you do not mind, but I was looking for an answer from the person that I posted to, unless that poster has given you permission to speak on her behalf as one of those you protec and care for
This is an open forum. If you wish to carry on a private conversation, take it to a PM. Otherwise, I'm free to comment. So, yes, I do, in fact, mind.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
I hope you do not mind, but I was looking for an answer from the person that I posted to, unless that poster has given you permission to speak on her behalf as one of those you protec and care for
This is an open forum. If you wish to carry on a private conversation, take it to a PM. Otherwise, I'm free to comment. So, yes, I do, in fact, mind.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Again, you misrepresent me. I am an upholder of the commandments of God, because I am a Christian and that is what is expected of me, I am not an anti-Christ who goes contrary to His teachings. I have no problems with two people loving each other. You keep falsely accusing me and I will keep denying you false assertions.
This doesn't make sense. You have said that the law says homosexuality is wrong. You have further said that you uphold the law. Yet you have no problems with people loving each other. Unless you don't believe that homosexuals really love each other.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
I hope you do not mind, but I was looking for an answer from the person that I posted to, unless that poster has given you permission to speak on her behalf as one of those you protec and care for
This is an open forum. If you wish to carry on a private conversation, take it to a PM. Otherwise, I'm free to comment. So, yes, I do, in fact, mind.
 
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