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Mormon Church To US Supreme Court: Ban Gay Marriage

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9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
As a Mormon, I suppose the Catholic Church might not give a baby to me. If that were the only game in town, I would be bothered. But I would respect the natural parents wishes and I would understand why they prefer a Catholic.
If the adoption agency claims to be acting in the best interests of the child and you were the best candidate, it would be unethical for them to put the child's interests second by passing you up because you're the "wrong" religion.

An adoption agency like the one you should describe should have to get birth parents to sign a form that says "I acknowledge that the well-being of my child may not be a factor in the selection of an adoptive parent" in big, bold letters before handing over custody.
 

Scott C.

Just one guy
From a legal standpoint I don't have a problem; I just view such a position on the part of the parents (using similar religious belief as a filtering criteria for who they want the child to go to) as selfish - they're potentially limiting the pool of loving homes a child could go to because they want to make sure the child grows up believing the same way they do. They're doing it to make themselves feel better first & foremost, putting what is best for the child second.

What basis do you have for saying the parents are not looking out for the best interests of the child? If a parent is a devout Christian, they believe that their child will be best off in a Christian home where they learn the principles of Christ. That's not selfishness. It's applying love according to their beliefs. And yes, there are countless numbers of great couples who will not be considered. But as long as there are loving couples in the target religion, the parent gets the best of both. More importantly, the child gets loving parents. The question of whether or not a child is better off in a Christian home as compared to a non-Christian home, all other things being equal, is a matter of personal perspective. Again, let the natural parents make the call.
 

Scott C.

Just one guy
If the adoption agency claims to be acting in the best interests of the child and you were the best candidate, it would be unethical for them to put the child's interests second by passing you up because you're the "wrong" religion.

Are you saying that you don't believe that the natural parent(s) should have a say in who's selected as the new parents, because the agency and the government know best? If your answer is yes, then you and I differ substantially in our view of parental judgement and rights vs the authority and judgement of the government.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
What basis do you have for saying the parents are not looking out for the best interests of the child?
The first social worker code of ethics I found online forbids discrimination on the basis of religion or facilitating discrimination. Who are you to say that this professional organization is wrong to impose this ethical requirement on their members?

If a parent is a devout Christian, they believe that their child will be best off in a Christian home where they learn the principles of Christ. That's not selfishness. It's applying love according to their beliefs.
If an adoption agency caseworker is a devout Christian, they may believe that they will be guided in their duty by God through reflection, Bible study and prayer. Should we still require them to take professional development courses?
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Are you saying that you don't believe that the natural parent(s) should have a say in who's selected as the new parents, because the agency and the government know best? If your answer is yes, then you and I differ substantially in our view of parental judgement and rights vs the authority and judgement of the government.
I'm saying that an adoption agency caseworker still has ethical obligations that don't magically go away because they're incompatible with the wishes of the birth parent.
 

Serenity7855

Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
Shall I go back and repost all the insulting things you've said to and about me? I believe I've done that before; it's all there for the public to see. And you lecture me about how Christians are "supposed to speak?" You're fooling no one here. Everyone who has kept up with the thread has seen your insulting remarks that you have brushed off and explained away.

Look, I am not going to contend with you on this one. From the moment that you started posting on this thread you have insulted me. If I have responded to it then it is in retaliation and if you want to post them I will be happy to shot them down for you in response to your provocation.

I could, but I don't want to waste my time.

Is that a cop out?

I'd think you screwed up, like every other human being. I'd also hope that you would grab hold of the grace God offers through Christ. What I wouldn't do is judge you to be "not Christian."

Yes, I expected that one
Jesus was a man. Jesus taught his disciples. God works through the church and through human agency. This isn't magic.

Jesus was the only begotten son of God. It was both man and deity. He taught the words of His father. It is nothing short of arrogance to compare a church created by man to Jesus Christ's mission, he never asked you to set up a church in His name. So, tell me, what makes you believe that God acts through your church and not someone else's. How do you know this, does he manifest himself to you.

God, through the church -- the body of Christ.

What does that even mean? How can you substantiate that. What do you mean by the body of Christ and where did the phrase come from. God works through the power and authority of His priesthood, not through a building of bricks and mortar or the self appointed sagacious clergy that frequent it, void of any real authority, other than the self proclaimed discernment they claim that they have.

You're fooling yourself if you really think that.

well of course you would think so, and only you could say it like that.

Please point out where I called you a jackleg. That's an assumption wholly made by you.

So, who were you calling a jackleg, whatever that is. i don't see you in debate with anybody else.

At any rate, if your skin is so darned thick, why would you be insulted by the term. Here's what it means: "unskilled; untrained. Amateur." Quite soon, you're going to crow about not being a professional. And, as we all know, if you're not a "professional," You're an "amateur." Or .
..

I am not insulted. Just because you are apt at delivering insults does not mean that the target of your contention are insulted.

jackleg. It's descriptive. And accurate, given your disdain for education and training at the hands of competent, qualified people.

I have no disdain for education and training I have disdain for those who use those attribute to dupe and deceive unsuspecting people just to make themselves look good about who they are. Like using rarely used words to promote intelligence. Again you make unfounded assertion that you cannot substantiate. Words put into my mouth.
So, your claim is that your call comes from God,

Yes, however not because it was done with authority of the priesthood but because the Holy Ghost manifested it to me.
but mine does not.

I would like to think it is, however, based on your post I am skeptical. What congregations need is to live a Christ centered life and find Jesus Christ themselves through the Holy Ghost. Why is there a need for people like you. You cannot convert anyone and neither can I. It is the individual who must ask God for his truth. If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
My claim is that we're both called, and that both calls are valid.

You may well be right. I do not know for a surety.
Apparently, the difference is (once again) your religious entitlement.

I don't know what you mean by that.

Looks like my assessment earlier was correct. You are LDS -- or were.

I was LDS for 25 years. I am now an individualist.

I'm well acquainted with LDS entitlement, doctrine, and claims. I've heard them many times. I'm here to claim that you are not the only Christians, but Christians only -- just like the rest of us, whether we're RCC, Anglican, Orthodox, Protestant, or any other flavor.

Which is one reason why I left. Most ex-Mormons leave cursing the church. I left under good terms and never berate them. I think that the LDS is a very good religion for those who can live their lifestyle, which, out of habit, I still do. I just do not believe that they are the only way by which man can obtain entry into the Kingdom of God. But now you know that I am a ex-Mormon I am sure that you will use the usual rubbish and criticize them, even though I have not been a member for 10 years

See? I told you that you were going to say this. You are lay. I am clergy. The Spirit isn't "professional." "Professional" is a human descriptor, not a descriptor for spiritual being
s.

I was being humorous when I said that the Holy Ghost is a professional.

If you have to ask who comprises the body of Christ, your theology is sadly lacking.

Why, are you a believer in the triune?

God initiates the call. That call is confirmed by the body of Christ -- the church. It is (once again) God working in and with human agency. As it should be.

When did He tell the Church that He was going to work like that. Where in the scriptures does it say that, or does it originate from the Nicene Creed. How do you know for certian that he initiates the call and not your own bias.

Same as you, I'm assuming. Oh! Except that my authority is apostolic, as well.

Please show me how you come to this conclusion. I have never heard such nonsense.

Once again, we see God working in and through human agency. As it's supposed to be. After all, Jesus breathed Holy Spirit on the apostles and gave them authority.
 
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Serenity7855

Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
Yes He gave them authority, which was taken from the earth at the death of the last Apostle. It was never conferred onto anybody else. The term apostasy means turning away from the truth. The Great Apostasy, as it is called now, was more than that. With the death of the Apostles, priesthood keys, or the presiding priesthood authority, were taken from the earth. Without these watchmen—the Apostles who had kept the doctrines of the gospel pure and who maintained the order and standard of worthiness in the Church—the members faced serious challenges. Over time doctrines were corrupted and unauthorized changes were made in Church organization and priesthood ordinances.

The Apostles were killed during a time when the entire Church was being persecuted. Nero, a Roman emperor, was the first to make laws to exterminate Christians, in about A.D. 65. Under his reign, thousands were cruelly killed. A second round of persecutions began in about A.D. 93 under Emperor Domitian. Succeeding emperors continued torturing and killing Christians. As a result of these persecutions, thousands of Christians were martyred. Many others apostatized.

In about A.D. 324 Constantine became the emperor of the Roman Empire. He made Christianity a legal religion, stopping centuries of persecution. His actions linked the church to the government, and corrupt church leaders began seeking power and the honors of the world.

Teachers within the church began to adopt false religious concepts from Greek philosophy and pagan religions. False ordinances and ceremonies were also introduced. Even though the church still taught some truth, the true Church of Christ and the priesthood were no longer on the earth. And as Christianity spread to various parts of the world—including to Africa, Asia, Europe, and the Americas—new churches were formed and grew. None of these churches, however, was the true Church, since the Lord had already taken priesthood authority and priesthood keys from the earth.

I haven't experienced "mass" anything. All rituals are man-made. None of them are efficacious in and of themselves. They are merely the framework within which we work as we partner with God.

The ordinance of Baptism was given to us by God. The sacrament was given to us by Jesus Christ, The method of repentance and prayer was also given to us by Christ. All of these, and more, were given to us by deity. All of thes can be performed by anybody who is authored to act in His name. We are all equal partners with God, if we have been converted by the Holy Ghost..

Oh, you mean like when all the witnesses saw the Plates, and witnessed Joe Smith "translating" through the peepstones?

I just knew that you were going to insult the Mormons. You cannot stop your hostility, can you? His name was Joseph Smith, to call him Joe Smith is an insult and quite frankly, disrespectful, no matter what you think about him.

It was not a peepstone it was called a seer stone, and there are documented events around that which make it hard not to believe.

There were many witnesses to the translation, sadly, most were related. I have my doubts about the translation, however, he produced the BOM with 62 days and was partially illiterate. There are many documented coincidences and strange happening that surround the translation. It is hard not to consider whether it is in fact, a real translation of those plates, that many people saw and bore witness of.

You mean like when the Quorum gets together and ratifies new doctrine and policy? Those who live in glass houses ...

I am ignorant to the Quorum so I cannot comment

Who decided that missionaries should wear white shirts, black ties, and name tags? Did Jesus, or any of his followers wear such strange attire while riding bicycles?

You would have to ask the Church authorities as I have no idea. What I can tell you is that if suits existed in the time of Christ then he may well have worn one. Plus, they are not used ceremoniously. The missionaries wear the same cloths as anybody else. The clergy don't. They act in a manner that is not stipulated in the Bible. Missionaries don't What they do was done by Christ and His apostles. and on and on. What you do was never even considered by the apostles so how you think your calling is apostolic beats me.

Where did such pomp and ceremony come from, as nowhere in the bible does it say that followers of Jesus needed a temple in which to hold secret ceremonies,

Solomon's Temple was full of painting of symbolic secret ordinances. Ordinances that are used by the Freemasons and the LDS, only LDS are dress in white and Freemasons in Black and the ceremonies are slightly different as a result of the Freemason mistranslated the hieroglyphics .. But temple work is a complete separate part of the main church where there are no pomp and ceremonies other than the sacrament and baptism.

According to the Bible, Solomon's Temple, also known as the First Temple, was the Holy Temple (Hebrew: בֵּית־הַמִּקְדָּשׁ‎: Bet HaMikdash) in ancient Jerusalem, on the Temple Mount (also known as Mount Zion), before its destruction by Nebuchadnezzar II after the Siege ofJerusalem of 587 BCE.Wiki

and nowhere in the bible does it say that marriage is for eternity? We all have our symbology and ceremonies that help in meaning-making.

No, but it was found in Solomon's Temple and is performed in LDS temple that are a similitude of Solomon;s temple. It is also known as the New and Everlasting Covenant. Adam and Eve were married by God before there was any death in the world. They had an eternal marriage as they were eternal in nature. They taught the law of eternal marriage to their children and their children’s children. As the years passed, wickedness entered the hearts of the people and the authority to perform this sacred ordinance was taken from the earth.

Where or when did I say that they have "special powers?" I said that they symbolize.

Well, I did not say that you did.

Well, I suppose if we envision it, it does carry meaning for us. And no, it's not a sign of authority. It's a sign of humility. If you're going to try to dismiss it, you could at least get it right, for crying out loud! The benefit of it is only to remind everyone that the clergy are servant of Christ and of the people. It's only as nonsensical as any of the claptrap you -- or anyone -- does in her or his particular religious ceremonies.

I have no religious ceremonies.

Everyone who is a Christian is a servant of God.

I don't know what reality shows you've been watching, but that's simply not the case. But your lack of professionalism on the matter is touching in its naivete and encouraging in that it illustrates that you don't know what you're talking about.

My extracurricular qualification in Behavioral Psychology tells a different story. Plus, you are insulting my intellect again. You just cannot help it can you. You probably do it without even knowing you do it. It is no doubt etched on your personality.

And it's sad that, while you're comfortable in your own "authority" to minister, you are unable to extend the same courtesies to your colleagues that they extend to you.

How do you know that.

It's further sad that, even as you cry "foul" on grounds of insult, in virtually the same breath, you're doing everything in your power to insult someone else, because you, quite mistakenly, think that it "bothers me."

I think no such thing of the sort and your usual judgement is way wide of the mark again.

I am just responding to your posts that are full of offensive rhetoric.

You have said more than once that you do not recognize homosexual marriage. That is an objection to it.

Then quote me.

Nope. That's all you. it's in how you interpret the texts.

The text is without interpretation.

I see. People "like me" cannot possibly use the term "hyperbolic" in any honest way.

You think that my complaint just relates to the words "hyperbolic"?

Learn what "efficacious" means. It might be of help to you here. I said that your experience with the H. S. was not efficacious in critical readings of the text. I could have sworn I already went over this? And I explained why: that critical reading is a cognitive and not an intuitive exercise. It was cogent to the point of the debate, because it refutes the validity of an interpretation that weakens your argument.

So now I am uneducated.
 
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Scott C.

Just one guy
An adoption agency like the one you should describe should have to get birth parents to sign a form that says "I acknowledge that the well-being of my child may not be a factor in the selection of an adoptive parent" in big, bold letters before handing over custody.

As far as I'm concerned, the natural parents should be able to find a couple of their choosing through any means they want. They can interview congregation members, family, work friends, neighbors or anyone else. When they find the parents that they want, they should go to an agency to handle the paperwork and make it all legal. The agency can do a background check and interviews to make sure that the couple doesn't have something that makes them unsuitable. In this case, it's not the agency's job to decide what couple is best. Rather it's to simply ensure that the natural parent's choice meets basic standards to become adoptive parents.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
As far as I'm concerned, the natural parents should be able to find a couple of their choosing through any means they want. They can interview congregation members, family, work friends, neighbors or anyone else. When they find the parents that they want, they should go to an agency to handle the paperwork and make it all legal. The agency can do a background check and interviews to make sure that the couple doesn't have something that makes them unsuitable. In this case, it's not the agency's job to decide what couple is best. Rather it's to simply ensure that the natural parent's choice meets basic standards to become adoptive parents.
So you expect professionals to rubber-stamp any and every arrangement, regardless of their own professional judgement?
 

Scott C.

Just one guy
I'm saying that an adoption agency caseworker still has ethical obligations that don't magically go away because they're incompatible with the wishes of the birth parent.

I'm still not understanding why you resist allowing the parent to have a say. The case worker is only ethically obligated to ignore the parent's request if the law says that they must. But the laws should give the natural parents a say. We may be going in circles at this point.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I'm still not understanding why you resist allowing the parent to have a say.
I'm not. I'm only resisting it in cases when the parent's request would go beyond what is ethical.

The case worker is only ethically obligated to ignore the parent's request if the law says that they must.
No - "legal" does not necessarily imply "ethical". As it happens, though, discrimination on the basis of religion is often illegal, depending on the jurisdiction.

But the laws should give the natural parents a say.
A say, but not to unreasonable extents. Forcing their caseworker to violate their ethical boundaries is an unreasonable extent.

We may be going in circles at this point.
Probably. Religious discrimination is pretty clearly unethical to me. Basing the choice of a child's adoptive parents on any factors besides the good of the child seems unethical as well. I can't understand why you disagree.
 

Scott C.

Just one guy
So you expect professionals to rubber-stamp any and every arrangement, regardless of their own professional judgement?

No. I said they should do background checks and interviews to make sure that there is no legitimate reason to deny them the opportunity to adopt. That's not a rubber stamp.

I admit that I don't know the law in this area. But I will be disappointed and bothered if a natural parent can't choose their best friend, for example, to adopt their child, as long as the friend meets basic requirements. It shouldn't matter if a professional thinks they have better candidates. If the mother loves the friend and is most comfortable turning the child over to that friend, the government has no business whatsoever to stop it. I certainly hope the law allows this.
 

Scott C.

Just one guy
Probably. Religious discrimination is pretty clearly unethical to me. Basing the choice of a child's adoptive parents on any factors besides the good of the child seems unethical as well. I can't understand why you disagree.

That's where I differ. I don't find it to be unethical or immoral, nor should it be illegal for a natural parent to choose the religion of the adoptive parents. Again, that is as basic of a right as the right of the parent to choose in what religion they would raise the child.
 

dgirl1986

Big Queer Chesticles!
1) We are all disciples.
2) Jesus commands us to go out and make disciples of all the world.
3) Jesus is God.

Therefore, God has chosen humanity, just as God has always chosen humanity. I can't help it if the church you learned from taught you something different from the core teaching of historic, apostolic Christianity. That's an unfortunate difference of doctrine, but it makes my statement no less true.

Wait....how does a thread about the mormon action on this turn into a post about Jesus and the christian god?
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
No. I said they should do background checks and interviews to make sure that there is no legitimate reason to deny them the opportunity to adopt. That's not a rubber stamp.

I admit that I don't know the law in this area. But I will be disappointed and bothered if a natural parent can't choose their best friend, for example, to adopt their child, as long as the friend meets basic requirements. It shouldn't matter if a professional thinks they have better candidates. If the mother loves the friend and is most comfortable turning the child over to that friend, the government has no business whatsoever to stop it. I certainly hope the law allows this.
I think we may be talking past each other because of a point of confusion.

An adoption agency finds adoptive parents for children. If you have a prospective adoptive parent picked out, you don't go to an adoption agency; you go to a lawyer.
 

The Emperor of Mankind

Currently the galaxy's spookiest paraplegic
What basis do you have for saying the parents are not looking out for the best interests of the child?

I said parents who filter adoption candidates on religious criteria are not putting the best interests of the child first. Which is different to saying it's not a factor at all.

If the priority was to find the child a loving home then they'd be looking at candidates irrespective of their religious beliefs or background. The fact that religion is being used as a criteria to disqualify suitable candidates over and above whether they can provide a loving home for the child or not shows it is a more important factor.


If a parent is a devout Christian, they believe that their child will be best off in a Christian home where they learn the principles of Christ. That's not selfishness.

It is selfish considering the child is being told what to believe, rather than allowing them to critically evaluate the pros & cons of Christ's message & Christianity in general for themselves later in life. And, to be honest, in America it's statistically impossible that one can live their entire life without encountering a religion in as privileged a position as Christianity.


It's applying love according to their beliefs.

That line of argument can and often does lead to dark, dark places. Just because they're doing something out of love for a child does not make said action ethical.


And yes, there are countless numbers of great couples who will not be considered. But as long as there are loving couples in the target religion, the parent gets the best of both. More importantly, the child gets loving parents.

Yes, that's exactly the point! It's not supposed to be about what the parents get out of it - it's supposed to be about what is best for the child. The fact they're going for a "target religion" show it's more about satisfying the parents' need to feel religiously fulfilled before the child's need to grow up in a loving environment. And if the child going to loving parents was more important in the first place then filtering through a religious lens wouldn't be a thing.


The question of whether or not a child is better off in a Christian home as compared to a non-Christian home, all other things being equal, is a matter of personal perspective. Again, let the natural parents make the call.

Not when that call goes against the judgement of professionals who are better trained to handle this sort of thing from both a legal and ethical standpoint (and who were brought into the process by the parents in the first place. If you're going to second guess or contradict the decisions of these people then, honestly, what's the point of letting them get involved in the first place?). Also, not so the parents can score piety points for making sure the child can be indoctrinated in the 'right' faith. They're trying to pass off the responsibility of raising said child, but still want influence in what the child grows up believing. Such a clear-cut case of trying to have one's cake and eat it.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
That's where I differ. I don't find it to be unethical or immoral, nor should it be illegal for a natural parent to choose the religion of the adoptive parents.
The Canadian Association of Social Workers and the National Association of Social Workers both forbid religious discrimination in their codes of ethics. I'll go with their determination over yours.

Again, that is as basic of a right as the right of the parent to choose in what religion they would raise the child.
A birth parent has the right to seek out someone based on whatever criteria they want and privately arrange the adoption themselves. They don't have the right to involve a caseworker or adoption agency in religious discrimination.
 

Scott C.

Just one guy
Not when that call goes against the judgement of professionals who are better trained to handle this sort of thing from both a legal and ethical standpoint - and who were brought into the process by the parents in the first place. If you're going to second guess or contradict the decisions of these people then, honestly, what's the point of letting them get involved in the first place? Not so the parents can score piety points for making sure the child can be indoctrinated in the 'right' faith. They're trying to pass off the responsibility of raising said child, but still want influence in what the child grows up believing. Such a clear-cut case of trying to have one's cake and eat it.

You seem to believe that a parent who teaches their 3 year old that Jesus is their Savior, is doing the child a disservice. If it is a disservice in this case, then it is also a disservice in the adoption process. But I believe it's a good teaching for 3 year olds, not a bad one. Hence, my feeling spills over into adoption. And if a parent wants to teach the child buddhism, that is the parents choice. The fact that I prefer Christianity, and Mormonism more particularly, doesn't matter.

You use the term "pass off responsibility of raising said child." Does this choice of words signal that you disrespect in any way, the decision of a parent to adopt out their child? I see it as an act of love, in many cases.

You're stuck on this piety points thing. That does not ring true to me at all, as a religious person. Yes, some people try to make points and like appearances. But that makes no sense to me in this case. It's natural for a Christian to believe that Christianity is best for their child and hence they want them to go to a Christian home. If you were to ask said natural parents if they would rather their child be raised by Christians who will beat the child for spilling their milk on the table, or by an atheist couple who will love and nourish the child, the answer will hopefully be "the atheists". Again there are plenty of good people to go around, so the child loses no advantage of getting "good parents" if the search is limited to a specific religion.
 
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