Mormon Excommunicated for advocating female priesthood.

[idav]

I'm not following how these two issues are related, but my statement is accurate. Mormons believe that the greatest blessings in Heaven are reserved for married couples. Now argue that that's not fair, if you want, but it's absolutely false to say that a woman can't get into Heaven without her husband's permission.

The way its related is in that a person in a priesthood would have a "Higher" level of heaven while that is necessary in order to attain that level while a woman cannot achieve a priesthood and therefore a single male can go further in the church. Not fair? Perhaps not, I don't really see why women can't have the priesthood as well but thats me. I wouldn't think anyone needs a husbands or wives permission, just gods permission. I do understand that married couples get the greatest blessings so I found it interesting, your statement about single peoples.

 

[Katzpur]

So exaltation has nothing to do with marriage and doesn't come with an obligation to breed incessantly, as Brigham Young stated?

Exaltation has everything to do with marriage. I already stated that marriage is a prerequisite for exaltation. What has been implied by a couple of posters now is that a man can be exalted without a wife, but not visa versa.

"Having fought the good fight we then shall be prepared to lay our bodies down to rest to await the morning of the resurrection when they will come forth and be reunited with the spirits, the faithful, as it is said, receiving crowns, glory, immortality and eternal lives, even a fullness with the Father, …Then will they become gods, even the sons of God; then will they become eternal fathers, eternal mothers, eternal sons and eternal daughters; being eternal in their organization, they go from glory to glory, from power to power; they will never cease to increase and to multiply, worlds without end. When they receive their crowns, their dominions, they then will be prepared to frame earths like unto ours and to people them in the same manner as we have been brought forth by our parents, by our Father and God.”
(Second LDS Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 18:259, October 8, 1876)

"An obligation to breed incessantly?" Come on. To begin with, the word "breed" definitely implies that the sex act is involved, and there is nowhere in Mormon doctrine that says that the spirits of humankind were created through sexual intercourse. As a matter of fact, it's really pretty stupid to assume that was the case. Intercourse is required to initiate a pregnancy and a pregnancy results in a physical human being. A spirit is in no way, the same thing as a physical human being. It obviously does not require 9 months gestation in a woman's womb. We have absolutely no idea whatsoever how God created our spirits. Non-Mormons seem to love to fill in the blanks when it comes to LDS doctrine, but they almost always end up being dead wrong.

Furthermore, The Journal of Discourses is not and never has been an official source of LDS doctrine.

Obviously others share this view:

“Each God, through his wife or wives, raises up a numerous family of sons and daughters; indeed, there will be no end to the increase of his own children: for each father and mother will be in a condition to multiply forever and ever. As soon as each God has begotten many millions of male and female spirits, and his Heavenly inheritance becomes too small, to comfortably accommodate his great family, he, in connection with his sons, organizes a new world, after a similar order to the one which we now inhabit, where he sends both the male and female spirits to inhabit tabernacles of flesh and bones. Thus each God forms a world for the accommodation of his own sons and daughters who are sent forth in their times and seasons, and generations to be born into the same. The inhabitants of each world are required to reverence, adore, and worship their own personal father who dwells in the Heaven which they formerly inhabited.”
(Apostle Orson Pratt, The Seer, 37, March 1853)

FYI, The Seer was publicly disowned and rejected by the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve in 1865.

 

[Gjallarhorn]

Exaltation has everything to do with marriage. I already stated that marriage is a prerequisite for exaltation. What has been implied by a couple of posters now is that a man can be exalted without a wife, but not visa versa.

Uh-huh.

"An obligation to breed incessantly?" Come on. To begin with, the word "breed" definitely implies that the sex act is involved, and there is nowhere in Mormon doctrine that says that the spirits of humankind were created through sexual intercourse. As a matter of fact, it's really pretty stupid to assume that was the case. Intercourse is required to initiate a pregnancy and a pregnancy results in a physical human being. A spirit is in no way, the same thing as a physical human being. It obviously does not require 9 months gestation in a woman's womb. We have absolutely no idea whatsoever how God created our spirits. Non-Mormons seem to love to fill in the blanks when it comes to LDS doctrine, but they almost always end up being dead wrong.

Furthermore, The Journal of Discourses is not and never has been an official source of LDS doctrine.

All interesting info that doesn't actually deny anything I have said beyond semantic quibbling. So, is it doctrine or not and if not why is it noted in Achieving a Celestial Marriage Student Manual?

FYI, The Seer was publicly disowned and rejected by the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve in 1865.

For the quoted comment or for something unrelated?

 

[Mycroft]

I'm not following how these two issues are related, but my statement is accurate. Mormons believe that the greatest blessings in Heaven are reserved for married couples. Now argue that that's not fair, if you want, but it's absolutely false to say that a woman can't get into Heaven without her husband's permission.

You didn't answer my question: Under what set of circumstances did you become a Mormon?

 

[Katzpur]

Uh-huh.

Are you saying that you agree or disagree with me?

All interesting info that doesn't actually deny anything I have said beyond semantic quibbling.

The semantics are critical to the understanding of LDS doctrine, in my opinion.

So, is it doctrine or not and if not why is it noted in Achieving a Celestial Marriage Student Manual?

Is what doctrine? That exaltation comes with an obligation to breed incessantly? Not doctrine. That human beings have the potential to attain the status of godhood? Doctrine.

For the quoted comment or for something unrelated?

For a number of different comments, I'm not sure which ones exactly. Orson Pratt never had the authority to pronounce Mormon doctrine and he liked to speculate a lot. Sometimes this got him in a lot of trouble. The Seer is definitely not a reliable source of information about Mormonism. If you would like your information to be reliable and accurate, I can certainly direct you to some legitimate sources.

 

[Katzpur]

The way its related is in that a person in a priesthood would have a "Higher" level of heaven while that is necessary in order to attain that level while a woman cannot achieve a priesthood and therefore a single male can go further in the church. Not fair? Perhaps not, I don't really see why women can't have the priesthood as well but thats me. I wouldn't think anyone needs a husbands or wives permission, just gods permission. I do understand that married couples get the greatest blessings so I found it interesting, your statement about single peoples.

The point I'm trying to get across is that a woman doesn't have to hold the priesthood in order to attain eventual exaltation. She does need to be married to someone who holds it. I'm not sure whether you understand what the LDS priesthood really is, though. It's a lay priesthood, so essentially every practicing Mormon male is eligible to hold it.

 

[Gjallarhorn]

Is what doctrine? That exaltation comes with an obligation to breed incessantly? Not doctrine. That human beings have the potential to attain the status of godhood? Doctrine.

That exaltation has spiritual reproduction as its end goal.

 

[Katzpur]

That exaltation has spiritual reproduction as its end goal.

Assuming you are using the the term "spiritual reproduction" the way I would use it (although I have never heard the term used in my lifetime as a Mormon), that would be a reasonably accurate statement.

 

[Katzpur]

You didn't answer my question: Under what set of circumstances did you become a Mormon?

Sorry, I missed it. I was born into a Mormon family and later on chose to remain in the Church.

 

[Gjallarhorn]

Assuming you are using the the term "spiritual reproduction" the way I would use it (although I have never heard the term used in my lifetime as a Mormon), that would be a reasonably accurate statement.

"Procreate the family unit throughout eternity" then.

Isn't that rather...if not simply misogynistic then completely detached from the wishes of humanity?

 

[Katzpur]

"Procreate the family unit throughout eternity" then.

Isn't that rather...if not simply misogynistic then completely detached from the wishes of humanity?

I'm sorry, but I simply fail to see how it's misogynistic. Maybe you could explain how parenthood is misogynistic? And completely detached from the wishes of humanity? How so? We are not talking about further populating the earth, if that's what you are thinking.

 

[idav]

It's a lay priesthood, so essentially every practicing Mormon male is eligible to hold it.

I get that so does that mean a single male can get further than a single female, simply because of the priesthood?

I really think that women would make better priests than men and it should be allowed. I certainly don't think women should keep silent in church as Paul says in one of his letters/epistles. That's my humble opinion but it seems to me that LDS might take that verse rather literally.

 

[Gjallarhorn]

I'm sorry, but I simply fail to see how it's misogynistic. Maybe you could explain how parenthood is misogynistic? And completely detached from the wishes of humanity? How so? We are not talking about further populating the earth, if that's what you are thinking.

You just (more or less) admitted that the Mormon doctrine states heaven is for reproduction. The goal of the Mormon faith is to become gods and create (through whatever reproductive processes are inherent to gods/spirits) infinite progeny.

This doesn't sound the least bit like the current American food industry or perhaps a puppy mill to you? What if a couple decides in their terrestrial life they only want a certain number of children only to find themselves obligated to reproduce in the afterlife? Or are their provisions in place for these satisfied couples?

 

[Katzpur]

I get that so does that mean a single male can get further than a single female, simply because of the priesthood?

No. A single, male priesthood holder cannot "get any further" than a single, woman (who is unable to hold the priesthood).

I really think that women would make better priests than men and it should be allowed. I certainly don't think women should keep silent in church as Paul says in one of his letters/epistles. That's my humble opinion but it seems to me that LDS might take that verse rather literally.

Actually, women do speak in LDS worship services. They also offer public prayers in our worship services. As a matter of fact, they speak and pray as part of the Church's semi-annual worldwide General Conferences. They also teach classes where the students are both men and women. That's why I said that I didn't think you really understood what "the priesthood" is in our Church. We don't have a "priest" who gives our Sunday sermons.

 

[Katzpur]

You just (more or less) admitted that the Mormon doctrine states heaven is for reproduction. The goal of the Mormon faith is to become gods and create (through whatever reproductive processes are inherent to gods/spirits) infinite progeny.

Essentially, that's correct.

This doesn't sound the least bit like the current American food industry or perhaps a puppy mill to you?

Not in the slightest. I'm surprised that it does to you.

What if a couple decides in their terrestrial life they only want a certain number of children only to find themselves obligated to reproduce in the afterlife? Or are their provisions in place for these satisfied couples?

Nobody is going to be "obligated to reproduce in the afterlife." I don't know how I can state it much more plainly.

Look, we believe in what might best be described as a multiverse sort of theology. We believe that God created the spirits of everyone who has ever lived prior to their births, and that the spirits of each and every one of us resided in God's presence for perhaps billions of years before we came to earth as mortal sons and daughters of mortal parents. We believe that this creation process is eternal in nature, but the fact that a couple is comprised of a male (who is a priesthood holder) and a female (who is not), does not mean that they are duty-bound to create any spirits at all in the next life. Of the billions and billions of people who have ever lived, it is entirely possible that only a relative few will find themselves in the position to even be able to do such a thing.

We believe that families are intended to be eternal in nature. For most Mormons I know, Heaven will be a place where we reside with God and with those we have known and loved in this life as our parents, siblings, and children. That, I would say, if what Heaven is all about for the average Mormon.

 

[Mycroft]

Sorry, I missed it. I was born into a Mormon family and later on chose to remain in the Church.

So indoctrinated. Thanks. That makes a lot of sense.

 

[Mycroft]

I'm sorry, but I simply fail to see how it's misogynistic. Maybe you could explain how parenthood is misogynistic? And completely detached from the wishes of humanity? How so? We are not talking about further populating the earth, if that's what you are thinking.

Due to your indoctrination, it is not surprising that you wouldn't see how it is misogynistic. The indoctrinated often find the most vile behaviours normal.

But. It arranges conditions thus:

No unmarried people may enter heaven.

Married people should procreate ad-infinitum.

This, thus, ensures women are nothing more than breeding stock with all of the 'street cred' going to the man. The man seems to be the one who is the 'hero' of this story while the woman seems to be there simply as a machine to churn out children. I don't know about you, but on Earth we call that a farm.

 

[Sleeppy]

Due to your indoctrination, it is not surprising that you wouldn't see how it is misogynistic. The indoctrinated often find the most vile behaviours normal.

But. It arranges conditions thus:

No unmarried people may enter heaven.

Married people should procreate ad-infinitum.

This, thus, ensures women are nothing more than breeding stock with all of the 'street cred' going to the man. The man seems to be the one who is the 'hero' of this story while the woman seems to be there simply as a machine to churn out children. I don't know about you, but on Earth we call that a farm.

Both points have been proven false.

 

[Katzpur]

So indoctrinated. Thanks. That makes a lot of sense.

More BS. You're welcome.

 

[Katzpur]

Due to your indoctrination, it is not surprising that you wouldn't see how it is misogynistic.

Well, so far you've not explained how it is. You just keep throwing out the word, and comparing women to a bunch of farm animals, but I have yet to hear an actual well-reasoned explanation.

The indoctrinated often find the most vile behaviours normal.

Parenthood is vile now, huh?

For someone who knows absolutely next to nothing about how I was raised, you're pretty quick to assume the roles of both judge and jury. I was raised in an LDS family by parents who encouraged me to question and to think, and on more than one occasion, I can recall my dad telling me that I didn't have to believe everything I heard over the pulpit. I was never, ever, ever made to feel ashamed of having doubts or afraid to express them. It was practically expected of me. I have studied Mormon doctrine extensively and have probably read well over 90% of the anti-Mormon claims. I came to my decision to remain in the faith into which I was born entirely on my own.

But. It arranges conditions thus:

No unmarried people may enter heaven.

That's nonsense. Mormons believe that pretty much everyone who has ever lived (including those who have absolutely nothing positive to say about God, Mormonism or Joseph Smith) will go to Heaven. For us, Heaven is not a one-size fits all kind of place like it is for most Christians, and to us, salvation is not as cut-and-dried as it is for them.

Married people should procreate ad-infinitum.

False. How many more times do I need to say it? My parents had two kids and stopped procreating at that point. Same with me and my husband. Nobody has given us the word that we're not in compliance with the "rules."

This, thus, ensures women are nothing more than breeding stock with all of the 'street cred' going to the man. The man seems to be the one who is the 'hero' of this story while the woman seems to be there simply as a machine to churn out children. I don't know about you, but on Earth we call that a farm.

How you're coming to these conclusions is beyond me. All I'm going to say at this point is that, unless you make a little more effort to not be so insulting from here on out, you and I are done talking. I know you're going to insist that you haven't been at all insulting. Well, you're wrong. Referring to LDS women as "breeding stock" and as "machines to churn out children" is highly offensive -- precisely as you intended it to be. If you can't state your position without being demeaning, you'll have to find some other Mormon to toy with.