Mormonism????

[Bishka]

What? Are you honestly looking at that and saying that we serve the same god? I serve the only and only God, I am that I am. I think you would know that.

Sigh. I do too, you are just to blind to see.

 

[Bishka]

SO you basically want me to abandon my beliefs and moral/religous absolutes to make you feel loved and genuinley cared for? I can't do that because I will not betray Christ, I am simply giving evidence that proves the difference between Mormonism and Biblical Christianity.

You aren't proving anything. We give you an oppurtunity to ask in the LDS forums, yet you deny that. Why is that? Are you afraid to actually learn what the LDS Church teaches?

I doubt you have ever even been to a LDS Church service in your life or you would think quite differently. As for believing the things out of the Journal of Discourses...sigh...this has been gone over so much here.

1 ) We believe the Prophets and Apostles are falliable, they do not always speak prophetically. They are men just like Peter, James and John were men, they are prone to mistakes just like the rest of us. How we know when they are speaking prophetically -- usually other scriptures, apostles, prophets back them up and official statements.

2 ) Yes, we believe a lot of what they say, yet it is not Church doctrine. So what? Why should that matter. If you are a member of the LDS faith and you believe in that doctrine then a lot of what the Prophets say makes sense. I don't expect you to understand that, because you have no clue where we are coming from, but how about trusting us for once?

3 ) Why are you so obviously trying to 'prove' that we aren't Christians. Can't you trust us? Have you ever read the Book of Mormon : Another Testament of JESUS CHRIST? Do you know the full name of the Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-day Saints? Do you even realize that our Churches teach much of the same doctrine?

 

[mormonman]

Ha, I knew it. Everyone of you gave the exact reaction I expected. You realized the massive difference between Mormonism and Biblical Christianity and then got defensive. I think what it comes down to is you guys having a problem with me wanting to differentiate myself from Mormons who are not Christians.
Everyone here says that Mormons are the same as Christians for one reason, they believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour, and that makes them a Christian. I agree if only they were speaking of the same Jesus.....

"In bearing testimony of Jesus Christ, President Hinckley spoke of those outside the Church who say Latter-day Saints 'do not believe in the traditional Christ.' 'No, I don't. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times. He together with His Father, appeared to the boy Joseph Smith in the year 1820, and when Joseph left the grove that day, he knew more of the nature of God than all the learned ministers of the gospel of the ages.'" (LDS Church News Week ending June 20, 1998, p.7 )

Hinckley himself said it. The president made the distinction between the Jesus of LDS and the Jesus I serve. And no I did not distort it to tear down your religion. CARM is there to present the whole truth Becky, it is not there just to tear down other's religion but to provide Christians with a logical defense against the cults, which according to my definition is any 'religious' group designed and presented as Christianity. There are also the cults which we all know, but they are quite different from the one at hand. More evidence for Jesus being different between the two...

The Mormon Jesus
The Christian Jesus

1. The literal son of god and his goddess wife begotten in the pre-existence.
2. The brother of all spirits born in heaven in the premortal existence.
3. One of 3 gods in the godhead.
4. The Trinity is three separate gods.
5. First one to receive a spirit body.
6. Atoned for sin on the cross and in the garden of Gethsemane.

Jesus is different between Biblical Christianity and Mormonism. That is why Mormons are not Christians and the basis of the thread.

For those of you who are still posting the don't judge verses, you to are not using them in context, they refer to judging people because of their sin or situations. And also, I have looked through the LDS webite many times, it offers no actual doctrine, merely quotes from current or past leaders and 'prophets'.
And the points posted are taught in many Temples, they are tradition and in many places have grown and become Doctrine. On that same note, why are some of Smith's writings justified and some not?

1. Not the literal son of god and his goddess wife.
2. Not the brother of all spirits born in heaven in a premortal existence.
3. Not one of 3 gods in the godhead.
4. The Trinity is 3 persons in one God.
5. Was always spirit from eternity.
6. Atoned for sin on the cross alone.

That's right. We follow the Christ that's in the Bible. He just called Himself the Son of God because He thought the name was cool.:areyoucra You must tear pages out of your Bible, because in Acts 7:55-56, Stephen clearly sees God the Father and the Son. How do you explain that? We follow the Christ that has enough compassion and love to not only let the people in Israel and the surrounding areas to hear the Gospel, but to let the whole world hear it. Let's see, how many times were the Jews scattered? There were Jews all over the world, and guess what! Christ visited them too. We believe in the Christ that atoned for every man's sins. The One that won't send us to Hell because we weren't baptized, because we didn't have the opportunity to hear the Gospel. The One that still has power to give revelation. The One that still leads His Church. So, you can go ahead and believe in the Christ that's obviously not able to go to more places than Israel, ergo Him being not all powerful, and is one w/ the Father and Holy Ghost, in being, but sort of not, fills the expanses of the universe, but not really, and can no longer give revelation to His Church, making Him a changeable God. Again we follow the Christ in the Bible, not the Christ of the Niceane Creed.

 

[Opethian]

I remember a guy called Jon Crawford from Christian Forums, any chance you're related Joe?

 

[Booko]

Ha, I knew it. Everyone of you gave the exact reaction I expected. You realized the massive difference between Mormonism and Biblical Christianity and then got defensive. I think what it comes down to is you guys having a problem with me wanting to differentiate myself from Mormons who are not Christians.
Everyone here says that Mormons are the same as Christians for one reason, they believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour, and that makes them a Christian. I agree if only they were speaking of the same Jesus.....

Are we reading the same forum? Firstly, not all of "us guys" have a problem with differentiating between LDS and mainline Western Christian beliefs. Knock yourself out.

Second, even the members of LDS haven't said their beliefs are the same as mainline Western Christian beliefs.

Thirdly, many of us have found our fellow posters who are LDS to be thoughful, kind, and considerate people. Whether their beliefs are right or wrong -- their actions fit Jesus' ethic just fine.

So please compare what you've been doing here, going around attacking people and spreading misinformation, with how the LDS folks here have acted, and maybe you'll get the point.

I think the real problem you're having here is that we recognize that you're just spouting anti-LDS rhetoric and we haven't bent down to lick your toes in a paroxyism of thanksgiving for setting us all straight.

I have my opinions on LDS belief as well, but they are just that -- my opinions. No one died and made me God, so that I should get on forums and go around telling everyone how wrong they are. sheesh

 

[Booko]

Please don't bark, IT IS NOT CHURCH DOCTRINE!!!! Come on if you are not willing to follow the writings of the founder of you religion or the presidents or prophets then what are you following, who is to say that the Book of Mormon is more true that the Journal of Discourses?

You do realize that this very same argument could be applied to early Christian tradition that defined the Bible you use, right?

Or do you accept all of those Apocryphal and even gnostic texts as Holy Writ?

 

[Booko]

What? Are you honestly looking at that and saying that we serve the same god? I serve the only and only God, I am that I am. I think you would know that.

Oy vey and begorrah! I can't wait to see a Jew's response to this one...

 

[Booko]

i'm fishing for baha'i frubals, but to no avail.

No, I was just very slow last night. Now I have

 

[Booko]

What is the Jewish church teaching these days. Come on you honestly believe, to paraphrase Shakespeare, A God by any other name still smells as sweet? Dude, seriously, realize that my relatioship with Jesus Christ revolves around certain things, such as moral/religious absolutes. And my Bible says "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life no one comes to the Father except through me." Ofcourse, God will judge look at the people killed in the great flood, and Sodom and Gomorrah. The God I serve is everything, He is the same today yesterday and forever more. He is a loving, judging, caring, condemning God, and he is not fully comprehendable by Human minds.

The Jewish church is not teaching anything, Joe.

Jews do not have churches. They never have.

And this part is, unfortunately, a hoot:

"...he is not fully comprehendable [sic] by Human minds."

Well, as it happens, I agree with you 100% on this.

The problem you now have is, if no one can fully comprehend God, then why are you getting all over everyone here as if you fully comprehend God? I don't get it.

 

[Booko]

SO you basically want me to abandon my beliefs and moral/religous absolutes to make you feel loved and genuinley cared for? I can't do that because I will not betray Christ, I am simply giving evidence that proves the difference between Mormonism and Biblical Christianity.

There's a vast difference between holding on to your beliefs and using them to abuse other people.

I'm sorry you can't see that.

Hold on to your beliefs. Who here is telling you not to? Spread them, if you will. All I've seen anyone here ask you to do is abandon the arrogant style you're using to spread the word. That's all.

 

[Green Gaia]

My formatting didn't work, the top one is Christian Jesus, the bottom is mormon Jesus.

That wouldn't happen if you would write your own thought instead of just copying and pasting from other websites.

 

[Green Gaia]

CARM is there to present the whole truth Becky, it is not there just to tear down other's religion but to provide Christians with a logical defense against the cults

No, CARM exists solely to distort and spread lies and half-truths about other religions they don't like, which is anything other than fundamentalist Christianity. They are not considered a reputable site on this forum which strives for honest and intellectual discussions among all beliefs, something which CARM know nothing about. They'd rather tear everyone else down to build themselves up instead of building themselves up on their own. Pretty sad way to practice your faith if you ask me.

 

[jonny]

Hey Joe,

People don't want you to abandon your beliefs, but if you're trying to convince us to abandon ours you're going about it in all the wrong ways. Keep in mind that everytime you "attack" someone's beliefs, it is a negative on your church. If your belief system requires you to belittle the faith of others, I want nothing to do with it, but if that's your belief, go ahead and keep believing it. Most people grow out of this stuff when they mature.

My church takes a completely different attitude on the matter. In fact, the right to worship is so important that it is one of our Articles of Faith:

"11. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may."

Just for fun, you can read the other 13, paying close attention to these ones:

1. We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

4. We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

13. We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,106-1-2-1,00.html

 

[SoyLeche]

From what I can tell, the only ones really doing much "investigating" of the LDS church and its foundation are members of the church itself. Non-LDS scholars haven't really paid all that much attention, and the drivel spouted by anti's can't really be called "investigating" - just mudslinging.

If you want to see some real "investigation" I'd suggest you check out FARMS (the Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies). http://farms.byu.edu/

The LDS church isn't afraid of being looked at objectively. It has withstood such looks in the past and flourised, and it will continue to do so.

 

[jonny]

No, CARM exists solely to distort and spread lies and half-truths about other religions they don't like, which is anything other than fundamentalist Christianity. They are not considered a reputable site on this forum which strives for honest and intellectual discussions among all beliefs, something which CARM know nothing about. They'd rather tear everyone else down to build themselves up instead of building themselves up on their own. Pretty sad way to practice your faith if you ask me.

Sounds like the way you practice your faith if you are afraid of people leaving it.

 

[Green Gaia]

SO you basically want me to abandon my beliefs and moral/religous absolutes

No, no one wants you to do that. But if your belief and moral/religious attitudes compels you to attack and harass our LDS members, then this perhaps is not the forum for you. I can suggest some other forums to you where that behavior is acceptable, if you like. You have done nothing to become apart of our forum community, which most here find important. Your sole purpose, (IMO and based on your lack of posting on any other topic), in coming here was to attack our LDS members. Some would calling that trolling.

 

[nutshell]

I nominate this thread for being locked.

It's entirely unproductive and if joe would like to question LDS beliefs maybe he should start over in a new thread that reflects the standards of the RF.

 

[SoyLeche]

I nominate this thread for being locked.

It's entirely unproductive and if joe would like to question LDS beliefs maybe he should start over in a new thread that reflects the standards of the RF.

Awww, cummon. We haven't had this much fun in a long time :ko:

 

[Katzpur]

You realized the massive difference between Mormonism and Biblical Christianity and then got defensive.

Excuse me? Are you seriously trying to imply that you have presented us with information we didn't already know? We know full well what the differences are between our beliefs and yours. They're on every anti-Mormon site on the web. Don't give yourself quite so much credit; it is entirely undeserved.

"In bearing testimony of Jesus Christ, President Hinckley spoke of those outside the Church who say Latter-day Saints 'do not believe in the traditional Christ.' 'No, I don't. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times. He together with His Father, appeared to the boy Joseph Smith in the year 1820, and when Joseph left the grove that day, he knew more of the nature of God than all the learned ministers of the gospel of the ages.'" (LDS Church News Week ending June 20, 1998, p.7 )

Hinckley himself said it. The president made the distinction between the Jesus of LDS and the Jesus I serve.

That he did. But you should notice that he used the word "traditional" in describing the Jesus you serve. He stated that we do not believe in the "traditional" Christ. He did not say that we do not believe in the "Biblical" Christ, because we do. We just happen to believe that there is a "massive difference" (as you would say) between the Biblical Christ and the Traditional Christ.

CARM is there to present the whole truth Becky, it is not there just to tear down other's religion but to provide Christians with a logical defense against the cults, which according to my definition is any 'religious' group designed and presented as Christianity.

:biglaugh: I'm just going to give you the benefit of the doubt on that one, Joe. You obviously want to believe what CARM has to say, and nothing anyone could possibly say would change that. Unfortunately, "your definition" of the word "cult" really doesn't speak of us. It does, however, speak volumes about you.

Here are my definitions of a "cult," acquired over time by listening to people with your mindset:

1. "A cult is the church down the street from yours."
2. "If you believe in it, it is a religion or perhaps 'the' religion; and if you do not care one way or another about it, it is a sect; but if you fear and hate it, it is a cult."
3. "A cult is a religion (usually smaller and new than yours) that you don't like.”

In short, Joe, when someone uses the word 'cult,' it usually says more about them than the group. It is a word without much use outside the realm of religious mudslinging.

The Christian Jesus

1. Not the literal son of god and his goddess wife.
2. Not the brother of all spirits born in heaven in a premortal existence.
3. Not one of 3 gods in the godhead.
4. The Trinity is 3 persons in one God.
5. Was always spirit from eternity.
6. Atoned for sin on the cross alone.

Now, since your sole authority for defining doctrine is the Bible, I would appreciate very much seeing a verse or two proving each of the six forementioned statements. Then you can get back to telling us whose beliefs are Biblical and whose aren't.

And also, I have looked through the LDS webite many times, it offers no actual doctrine, merely quotes from current or past leaders and 'prophets'.

I'm going to try to make sense out of this paragraph, but quite frankly, it's going to be a challenge. The LDS website (www.lds.org) contains all of the Standard Works, which comprise our doctrine.

And the points posted are taught in many Temples, they are tradition and in many places have grown and become Doctrine.

Now you're telling us what is taught in the temples? Interesting. When was the last time you went to an LDS temple?

On that same note, why are some of Smith's writings justified and some not?

Joseph Smith was a man, not a god. He was fallible, just like you and me. He had opinions on a variety of subjects. Some of these opinions were correct, others were not. When he spoke for and in behalf of God, and his words presented to the Church membership for its sustaining vote, they were canonized. As he stated himself, "A prophet is only a prophet when he is acting as such." Every word Joseph Smith ever spoke was not spoken by revelation. Do you honestly think that Lutherans, for example, are bound by every opinion Martin Luther stated throughout his life?

 

[Booko]

That he did. But you should notice that he used the word "traditional" in describing the Jesus you serve. He stated that we do not believe in the "traditional" Christ. He did not say that we do not believe in the "Biblical" Christ, because we do.

You know, I have to wonder what someone who is Jewish would say about a "Biblical" view of God as compared to Christian trinities.

From an observers pov, it's kinda strange to be sitting here watching someone criticize someone else for a view of God and Christ that is not "Biblical" when Jews could turn around and say the exact same to them.

Apparently the definition of "Biblical" in some cases is "my opinion of what the Bible means." Go figure.

1. "A cult is the church down the street from yours."
2. "If you believe in it, it is a religion or perhaps 'the' religion; and if you do not care one way or another about it, it is a sect; but if you fear and hate it, it is a cult."
3. "Cult is a word without much use outside the realm of religious mudslinging."
4. "When someone uses the word 'cult,' it usually says more about them than the group."
5. "A cult is a religion (usually smaller and new than your) that you don't like.”

Mind if I swipe this?

Joseph Smith was a man, not a god. He was fallible, just like you and me. He had opinions on a variety of subjects. Some of these opinions were correct, others were not. When he spoke for and in behalf of God, and his words presented to the Church membership for its sustaining vote, they were canonized. As he stated himself, "A prophet is only a prophet when he is acting as such." Every word Joseph Smith ever spoke was not spoken by revelation. Do you honestly think that Lutherans, for example, are bound by every opinion Martin Luther stated throughout his life?

You mean to say that at the dinner table when Joseph Smith said, "please pass the cheese" he wasn't speaking prophetically? :faint: