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Moron Claims Jesus never existed because crucifixion is impossible
- Thread starter dave6
- Start date
Have any of the re-enactors been able to be suspended solely by nails thru hands & feet?
That's not quite how Roman Crucifixion worked. The person was nailed(or rather staked, as one can't really call what they used 'nails') in the ankles & the wrists, a rope tied around the chest, and a small platform for the feet to rest on.
Dumb argument. Therefore?
Kolibri
Well-Known Member
If one wants to look at this from a MythBusters perspective, they should at least get the shape of the death implement correct first.
In classical Greek, stau·rosʹ meant merely an upright stake, or pale. Later it also came to be used for an execution stake having a crosspiece.
The Imperial Bible-Dictionary acknowledges this, saying: “The Greek word for cross, [stau·rosʹ], properly signified a stake, an upright pole, or piece of paling, on which anything might be hung, or which might be used in impaling [fencing in] a piece of ground. . . . Even amongst the Romans the crux (from which our cross is derived) appears to have been originally an upright pole.”—Edited by P. Fairbairn (London, 1874), Vol. I, p. 376.
The Bible also uses the word xyʹlon to identify the device used. A Greek-English Lexicon, by Liddell and Scott, defines this as meaning: “Wood cut and ready for use, firewood, timber, etc. . . . piece of wood, log, beam, post . . . cudgel, club . . . stake on which criminals were impaled . . . of live wood, tree.”
It was never a pole with a crossbeam to begin with. It was just an upright stake in the ground.
So sayeth the Jehovah's Witnesses, the only group to push that view when the over-whelming majority of scholars & faithful say it was a cross-beam. However, most people do picture it wrong, as it was likely not to be a 't' shape but a 'T' shape. The latter is more efficient, and the Romans were big on that.
Kolibri
Well-Known Member
It seems like it is not just Jehovah's Witnesses, nor did it start with Jehovah's Witnesses, this dispute. And this is only regarding the Greek word stauros'. Xy'lon does not seem disputed at all.
Instrument of Jesus' crucifixion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Xy'lon is what was used at Acts 5:30; 10:39; 13:29; Galatians 3:13; and 1 Peter 2:24.
"The Greek word for cross, (stauros), properly signified a stake, an upright pole, or piece of paling, on which anything might be hung, or which might be used in impaling (fencing in) a piece of ground. But a modification was introduced as the dominion and usages of Rome extended themselves through Greek-speaking countries. Even amongst the Romans, the crux (from which the word cross is derived) appears to have been originally an upright pole, and always remained the more prominent part. But from the time that it began to be used as an instrument of punishment, a traverse piece of wood was commonly added: not however always then.
… There can be no doubt, however, that the later sort was the more common, and that about the period of the Gospel Age, crucifixion was usually accomplished by suspending the criminal on a cross piece of wood.
… But the commonest form, it is understood, was that in which the upright piece of wood was crossed by another near the top, but not pricisely at it, the upright pole running above the other, thus "a cross" and so making four, not merely two right angles. It was on a cross of this form, according to the general voice of tradition, that our Lord suffered.
… It may be added that crucifixion was abolished around the time of Constantine, in consequence of the sacred associations which the cross had now gathered around it." - The imperial Dictionary p.376
Jehovah's Witnesses, why did the Watchtower selectively quote the Imperial Bible Dictionary? | Yahoo Answers
Look for yourself:
The imperial Bible-dictionary : historical, biographical, geographical, and doctrinal; including the natural history, antiquities, manners, customs and religious rites and ceremonies mentioned in the Scriptures, and an account of the several books of the Old and New Testamen; illustrated by numerous engravings
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Xy'lon can be translated as 'stake'. But it is more generally used for everything made of wood.
Also, crucifixion isn't some obscure form of punishment. We've got tons of Roman & Greek information on the practice, and they're all with crossbeams.
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
The bible says that Jesus died on an upright pole... more like a stake.
There was no crossbar used.
Of course the video is stupid. The guy is a Juggalo. You can't expect anything more from them.
Skwim
Veteran Member
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
Im so glad im part of an organisation willing to adjust its views in light of the evidence
So why does the vast majority of actual historians & scholars disagree with you? And all our records of Roman use of Crucifixion being of the cross-beam variety? Did all the evidence of 'stake' crucifixion just whither away or get lost in some iron-age equivalent of a filing cabinet?Im so glad im part of an organisation willing to adjust its views in light of the evidence
Kolibri
Well-Known Member
Regarding stauros:
“The Greek word [stau·rosʹ] properly . . . means merely a stake.”—Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature.
“A pole in the broadest sense. It is not the equivalent of a ‘cross.’”—Crucifixion in Antiquity.
“A strong stake, such as farmers drive into the ground to make their fences or palisades—no more, no less.”—History of the Cross.
“It never means two pieces of timber placed across one another at any angle, but always of one piece alone.”—The Companion Bible.
“An upright pale or stake . . . It never means two pieces of wood joining each other at any angle.”—A Critical Lexicon and Concordance.
Never really put much stock in majority rules when there is evidence that popular opinion has been warped over time.
Vine’s Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words states: “By the middle of the 3rd cent. A.D. the churches had either departed from, or had travestied, certain doctrines of the Christian faith. In order to increase the prestige of the apostate ecclesiastical system pagans were received into the churches apart from regeneration by faith, and were permitted largely to retain their pagan signs and symbols,”
“The Greek word [stau·rosʹ] properly . . . means merely a stake.”—Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature.
“A pole in the broadest sense. It is not the equivalent of a ‘cross.’”—Crucifixion in Antiquity.
“A strong stake, such as farmers drive into the ground to make their fences or palisades—no more, no less.”—History of the Cross.
“It never means two pieces of timber placed across one another at any angle, but always of one piece alone.”—The Companion Bible.
“An upright pale or stake . . . It never means two pieces of wood joining each other at any angle.”—A Critical Lexicon and Concordance.
Never really put much stock in majority rules when there is evidence that popular opinion has been warped over time.
Vine’s Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words states: “By the middle of the 3rd cent. A.D. the churches had either departed from, or had travestied, certain doctrines of the Christian faith. In order to increase the prestige of the apostate ecclesiastical system pagans were received into the churches apart from regeneration by faith, and were permitted largely to retain their pagan signs and symbols,”
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
there are plenty of scholars who have made it known that the instrument was an upright pole....where do you think we got the information from???
Greek scholar W. E. Vine, stauros′ “denotes, primarily, an upright pale or stake. On such malefactors were nailed for execution. Both the noun and the verb stauroō,to fasten to a stake or pale, are originally to be distinguished from the ecclesiastical form of a two beamed cross.”
The ImperialBible-Dictionary says that the word stauros′ “properly signified a stake, an upright pole, or piece of paling, on which anything might be hung, or which might be used in impaling a piece of ground....Even amongst the Romans the crux(Latin, from which our cross is derived) appears to have been originally an upright pole.”
The Catholic Encyclopedia states: “Certain it is, at any rate, that the cross originally consisted of a simple vertical pole, sharpened at its upper end.”
A Critical Lexicon and Concordance to the English and Greek NewTestament defines xy′lon (another word used in the scriptures) as “a piece of timber, a wooden stake.”
And the fact that this is so well known just goes to show the cognitiive dissonance among members of the clergy and church teachers. They put tradition before truth.
You're missing some rather important words in that. I'll highlight them.
Originally. As in, when first put into practice. But both the word and the practice had altered by the time of the Nazarene. Much the same way the notion of a "slave" and all that entailed changed between Roman times and Antebellum Southern America.