Mortal Vs Immortal

[wizanda]

Modern day religions have all gone mad, it is sort of expected everyone who is a little bit nice down here near Hell, will instantly ascend after death to Heaven, as they were kind to other demons...

Seriously in the past, it was only those who did exceedingly good deeds, that had even the slightest hope of being favoured by the God's to become an immortal, the rest come back here.

Which even Yeshua stated, 'that make friends of unrighteous mammon, that if you fail you receive somewhere to come back to'.... In other words most people reincarnate (Gilgul) back down here.

So please give any logic, that would make it anyone who is just a normal person without any exceedingly righteous acts or character, should be allowed to become immortal?

As for all this following someone who was righteous, and then trying to sneak into Heaven behind them, isn't going to work; so why are people so gullible to believe they're all going to attain immortality for doing nothing?

 

[Tumah]

Modern day religions have all gone mad, it is sort of expected everyone who is a little bit nice down here near Hell, will instantly ascend after death to Heaven, as they were kind to other demons...

Seriously in the past, it was only those who did exceedingly good deeds, that had even the slightest hope of being favoured by the God's to become an immortal, the rest come back here.

Which even Yeshua stated, 'that make friends of unrighteous mammon, that if you fail you receive somewhere to come back to'.... In other words most people reincarnate (Gilgul) back down here.

So please give any logic, that would make it anyone who is just a normal person without any exceedingly righteous acts or character, should be allowed to become immortal?

Here's the logic:

Spoiler: Logic

Jesus was wrong.

Here's some additional logic:

Spoiler: Some Additional Logic

Not everyone here is Christian or cares what the NT says. If you intend to direct your questions to Christians, perhaps you should consider saying so. Otherwise, quoting the NT as proof is pointless

 

[wizanda]

Jesus was wrong.

Where or why was he wrong sorry?

Not everyone here is Christian or cares what the NT says.

It isn't only Christians who now believe they get eternal life, simply for living a normal life....

It is a common belief now, due to both Islam and Christianity stating all you need to do is follow someone who was righteous.

If you intend to direct your questions to Christians, perhaps you should consider saying so.

The question is in contrast of all ancient religions, that existed before Christianity... Such as Greek, Roman, Egyptian, where only the very elite would ever be considered worthy of ascension.

Otherwise, quoting the NT as proof is pointless

The quoting of Yeshua's words, is again in contrast of what Christianity believes; his teachings were Jewish about Gilgul.

 

[Tumah]

Where or why was he wrong sorry?

Because he claimed that only the elite get to go to heaven.

It isn't only Christians who now believe they get eternal life, simply for living a normal life....

That may or may not be true, however when you quote Christian Scriptures as proof, you are giong to be limiting your feedback.

It is a common belief now, due to both Islam and Christianity stating all you need to do is follow someone who was righteous.

Cool. I don't think Muslims care what the NT says either.

The question is in contrast of all ancient religions, that existed before Christianity... Such as Greek, Roman, Egyptian, where only the very elite would ever be considered worthy of ascension.

So maybe you should quote those too as proof.

The quoting of Yeshua's words, is again in contrast of what Christianity believes; his teachings were Jewish about Gilgul.

The one thing the NT's teachings are certainly not, is Jewish.

 

[wizanda]

Because he claimed that only the elite get to go to heaven.

Where? As far as I'm aware, he stated only the faithful righteous saints ever have the chance of maybe qualifying, if they're following what he taught....

So whereas in other cultures, you could be someone powerful or mighty; Yeshua is stating only the righteous shall ever make it.

however when you quote Christian Scriptures as proof, you are giong to be limiting your feedback.

If i post contrary to Christianity, expanding into a Jewish context, whilst using the rest of ancient religions as a contrast, only someone who isn't paying attention could ever question that.

I don't think Muslims care what the NT says either.

I didn't quote the NT in context of the point, it is just to show how even based on what Yeshua said Christians are wrong, so Muslims following the same idea are also.

So maybe you should quote those too as proof.

There isn't a proof from religious text saying this is what happens....It is a contrast of belief over time, where due to some religions, many in the world have these concepts.

The one thing the NT's teachings are certainly not, is Jewish.

lol, if you understood the Tanakh, you couldn't say that....

If you're referring to Rabbinic/Pharisaic Judaism, that is also very faulty:

• John is based on first century Jewish expectations of the messiah.
• Paul is re-instigating Pharisaic ideas in a Hellenistic ideology.
• Matthew is very Pharisaic, and some Jewish professors i regularly debate, continually state jesus was a Pharisee based on the gospels.

Sorry, yet "Blinded by hate", springs to mind.

 

[Tumah]

Where? As far as I'm aware, he stated only the faithful righteous saints ever have the chance of maybe qualifying, if they're following what he taught....

Right. And that's where he was wrong.

So whereas in other cultures, you could be someone powerful or mighty; Yeshua is stating only the righteous shall ever make it.

The only thing you posted was Christian. So consider either expanding your proof texts, or limiting your expected response population.

If i post contrary to Christianity, expanding into a Jewish context, whilst using the rest of ancient religions as a contrast, only someone who isn't paying attention could ever question that.

You haven't presented any contrast.

I didn't quote the NT in context of the point, it is just to show how even based on what Yeshua said Christians are wrong, so Muslims following the same idea are also.

Then quote Muslim texts proving they follow the same idea.

There isn't a proof from religious text saying this is what happens....It is a contrast of belief over time, where due to some religions, many in the world have these concepts.

You haven't presented any contrast. You've only made some claims and brought a Christian text.

lol, if you understood the Tanakh, you couldn't say that....

...says the guy who doesn't know Hebrew.

If you're referring to Rabbinic/Pharisaic Judaism, that is also very faulty:

• John is based on first century Jewish expectations of the messiah.
• Paul is re-instigating Pharisaic ideas in a Hellenistic ideology.
• Matthew is very Pharisaic, and some professors i regularly debate, continually state jesus was a Pharisee based on the gospels.

Number of times wizanda made unsubstantiated claims in this thread: 4

Sorry, yet "Blinded by hate", springs to mind.

Sorry, yet "living in his own fantasy" springs to mind.

 

[wizanda]

Right. And that's where he was wrong.

How on earth can you know that for sure?

So consider either expanding your proof texts

On this forum are theology academics, who happen to know religious history globally....

There is no need to post individual proof text, for something anyone who is educated in global religious history should know.

Then quote Muslim texts proving they follow the same idea.

We've already had this discussion on the forum previously, where i asked Muslims about believing in Muhammad, to establish first that many Muslims see that as a requirement to being saved.

You haven't presented any contrast.

Sorry, i expect people to be educated, and if they're not, to do their own research....

If you're unaware that people used to believe only the very special ever reached Heaven, maybe research it, and then we can have this discussion; rather than you dissect everything, and not having any facts to come to the conversation with.

...says the guy who doesn't know Hebrew.

Lol, whereas i can look up the Hebrew words, have a concordance to see the cross-referencing; there is no way to make up for being badly educated on the meanings, other than being literally born again, and learning it all from scratch.

 

[PeteC-UK]

Hi Folks...

Its all a matter of SELF PERSPECTIVE - as He said - come to know thy Self and all the other mystery will become apparant

Christ was not wrong - He said simply that the entire Creation flows forth from a fully abstract source that is beyond space and time as WE experience it - to all intents and purposes this Fathers realm then, is quite literally IMAGINED (again as we would term it) and is fully the domain of a MIND Folks...hence the advise to come to know the self fully

This first primal mind - Divine Source of creation - is seeking always to UNDERSTAND the Self, its existance...That is WHY the external world are formed and the Souls that temporarily inhabit them... In plain English -this Divine mind is imaginig things that it could be - it is then building a model of theose things to investigate them further, deeper, more fully, and then if appropriate, it will depoit a "seed" of its own Mind actually INSIDE the construct, making it to "come alive", and thus THROUGH the interaction pf that life, it can further explore the ENTIRE CREATION in a most direct manner....Thus THROUGH individual life forms - this Divine mind attains and knows its ENTIRE truth of its entire existance - the mind attains its satisfaction....

We - individual unique lifeform - are that tiny seed of Divine mind...Everything comes FROM this mind - all creation....As we grow, mature here, through the direct experiences of life, we may individually begin to realise this metaphysical, interconnectedness of all things as ONE single existance...we may come to finally understand and appreciate OUR individual unique part in that greater universal reality....If we come to know this fully and truly - then upon death, Mind will be freed from the body and we will finally realise that we ARE that PRIMAL MIND that caused it ALL - and at that moment the individual will finally attain and claim their full eternal Divine status - become AS the Christ.....

We are ALWAYS a SELF CREATED BEING - it all flows from the mind...As a human now, unique individual MIND - encased within a physical bodyform - we have very limited access to that greater Mind that causes it all....There is an arrangement and a heriachy of BOTH "realms of existance" and the mind that inhabits them" - the Divine mind exists as a NESTED REALITY - and its representations in Creation also are a nested reality....Ideas and concepts exist WITHIN and integral to, OTHER ideas and concepts - Entire realms of existance exist contained WITHIN other realms of a greater existance yet...PERSONALITY arises in the mind BECAUSE of this interaction and eventually filters down to become THIS mind - individual and unique form...Thus the eternal Divine became the finite mortal - on purpose with intent to learn its truth..

THIS mind has to work all that out - progress through it - until finally it has the complete truth of its entire existance once again...we are indeed taking an inner journey back HOME Folks.. It is all a matter of Self perspective.. The Divine Mind and its heriachy of Creation - has to be now traverssed BACKWARDS - footsteps retraced so to speak...Mind here must realise Self as something greater than individual body - must by whatever means it can - step outside of its body identity to realise the greater truth to creation....Until it does that, the individual mind will be literally TRAPPED HERE in THIS realm of its existance - as look , MIND CREATES EVERYTHING !!! If the individual remains ignorant of its truth, then their mind will simply create that which they DO believe, life as a MORTAL BEING - upon death that one will REINCARNATE no hope for it as the mind WILL CREATE the belief of Self ALWAYS !! Reincarnation is a foregone conclusion for an ignorant mind...It will trap itself here in the low end of creation totally unaware yet of the greater heirachy and situation that surrounds it..

This arrangement itself - is layered into distinct and bounded realms of existance...Spiritual realms - heavens and hells we call them - but they are metaphysical and ENERGETIC truth also...To experience them directly, we must first free the mind FROM the body.. This is going to happen anyway when we die, so its best to try to work it out before that happens..lol...Thus the Soul realises it must progress...Finally, perhaps many many MANY lives needed - it will be sick and tired of existance here and even the most base ignorant Soul will achieve this Self truth and set about discovering it in earnest - none will be lost He promises, but how fast we progress is always that matter of Self perspective and Self understanding.....

Die in ignorance - reincarnate in short order - no choice at all - mind will do its natural creation talent - KARMA - and so you will create again that which you believe your Self to Be..Many lives - perhaps some progress in Self understanding - and the indidivual life circumstances will always reflect this - and each new cycle - death birth death - takes the individual ever closer to their full Self discovery...We can only APPROACH it here in life - it is never fully realised until we are free from the mortal form....Even Yeshua who IS Christ, HAD to die to demonstrate this truth to us plainly.. Once that truth settles, then indeed UPON death, the mind HERE becomes fully free form all that delusion that life heaped upon it, and if it is indeed ready, it will know it Self AS the DIVINE SOURCE of literally All-That-Is....Thus the individual will finally achieve true immortality - no longer confined by ANY material constraints at all - but existing now eternal and fully omnipresent - Alpha and Omega fully known and experienced simultaneously....

As I say though - that Divine state is beyond the mortal ability to achieve...We MUST die Folks - only way to progress...we are MIND and Mind itself is the ENERGY of all creation..It is layered and structured - defined into boundaries and planes of existance...As said - a nested reality - first we must cross even these low realms we now inhabit - several of them - astral as we term them - this alone may take many many lifetimes and the journey Home only just begun - but the key is always within us - ALWAYS seek within - unlock the gate place the first foot onthe path, and let the journey Home begin....

Its NOT ABOUT being righteous - or morally upstanding - its ALL about perspective of Self - - righteousness and morals and all those saintly traits, come about BECAUSE of how we view the Self Folks - a natural reflection of the inner, living truth of Self - they are the result of the process, not the cause of it - as He said -KNOW thy Self

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

An animist (Non-Abrahamic) just tossing out a couple of notes about beliefs in other systems:

Some have no concept even remotely like heaven and hell. The question is irrelevant.

Some believe in some form of reincarnation/transmigration of the soul/spirit; there may or may not be an end to this succession of lives, but again, the OP is irrelevant.

There are some who believe the ancestors remain at or near where they are buried, or at least where the family shrine is; they remain there until no one remembers them...then, who knows...again, the question raised is irrelevant.

And then there are atheists, who don't believe that anything "goes on" after death, and that there is no heaven or hell. Again...

 

[wizanda]

a couple of notes about beliefs in other systems:

Thank you for the other religions....Some great points:

Ancestral cultures in many believed everyone would reach a state of rest, and only those who were twisted would get stuck in a limbo/hell.....

Makes you wonder, if some of the reasoning of appealing to everyone being saved by following someone righteous, is in some way to match these other cultures....

Basically to make the pagan accept it, they had to say "everyone gets saved", otherwise no one would have left their pagan roots.

The reincarnation based religions, often have very high criteria for only the enlightened to leave the circle of rebirth....

And especially not by claiming someone else is enlightened, therefore they get out by following them (tho in westernized Buddhism there is a hint of that).

Lol, atheists are mostly put off by all the religious mumbo jumbo in the first place, especially on this specific topic, as it defies logic...

So even an atheist can understand, if you're going to say, "there is a Heaven, and it is a place of perfection", "why let all the religious people go there then?"

 

[Tumah]

How on earth can you know that for sure?

Because Judaism is correct and Jesus was wrong, obviously.

On this forum are theology academics, who happen to know religious history globally....

There is no need to post individual proof text, for something anyone who is educated in global religious history should know.

You are mistaken. If you'd like to make an argument that you need to bring supporting statements otherwise your claims are meaningless.

We've already had this discussion on the forum previously, where i asked Muslims about believing in Muhammad, to establish first that many Muslims see that as a requirement to being saved.

So again, why haven't you quoted them here?

Sorry, i expect people to be educated, and if they're not, to do their own research....

Or at least uneducated enough to take your word for it?

If you're unaware that people used to believe only the very special ever reached Heaven, maybe research it, and then we can have this discussion; rather than you dissect everything, and not having any facts to come to the conversation with.

It doesn't matter what I know or don't know. See above.

Lol, whereas i can look up the Hebrew words, have a concordance to see the cross-referencing; there is no way to make up for being badly educated on the meanings, other than being literally born again, and learning it all from scratch.

Yes, we've seen quite clearly how well "looking up the Hebrew words" has worked for you...

 

[wizanda]

Because Judaism is correct and Jesus was wrong, obviously.

Asked 'for sure'; you've no idea if any of what Yeshua stated are requirements for Heaven or if Rabbinic texts are? It is only a faith based claim.

Or at least uneducated enough to take your word for it?

Why would you need to take my word for any of it, i hardly ever take anything at face value, and will always double check things...

If you're not aware of the things stated, check them.

 

[Parchment]

If the eternal questions seem so simple yet so stupid at the same time just take a look in the mirror! If your beard has split hairs (I honestly didn't know a split hair from split legs until a young girl told me I had split hairs in my beard and I should trim them off if I wanted it to grow longer- this was in 2013)

 

[buddhist]

So please give any logic, that would make it anyone who is just a normal person without any exceedingly righteous acts or character, should be allowed to become immortal?

Perhaps we're already immortal (in the virtually endless round of samsara) - and that is the real curse.

 

[George-ananda]

Modern day religions have all gone mad, it is sort of expected everyone who is a little bit nice down here near Hell, will instantly ascend after death to Heaven, as they were kind to other demons...

Seriously in the past, it was only those who did exceedingly good deeds, that had even the slightest hope of being favoured by the God's to become an immortal, the rest come back here.

Which even Yeshua stated, 'that make friends of unrighteous mammon, that if you fail you receive somewhere to come back to'.... In other words most people reincarnate (Gilgul) back down here.

So please give any logic, that would make it anyone who is just a normal person without any exceedingly righteous acts or character, should be allowed to become immortal?

As for all this following someone who was righteous, and then trying to sneak into Heaven behind them, isn't going to work; so why are people so gullible to believe they're all going to attain immortality for doing nothing?

Ahh, you are saying the joy can not be great if the effort was not great! On that I can agree.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

Thank you for the other religions....Some great points:

Ancestral cultures in many believed everyone would reach a state of rest, and only those who were twisted would get stuck in a limbo/hell.....

Makes you wonder, if some of the reasoning of appealing to everyone being saved by following someone righteous, is in some way to match these other cultures....

Basically to make the pagan accept it, they had to say "everyone gets saved", otherwise no one would have left their pagan roots.

The reincarnation based religions, often have very high criteria for only the enlightened to leave the circle of rebirth....

And especially not by claiming someone else is enlightened, therefore they get out by following them (tho in westernized Buddhism there is a hint of that).

Lol, atheists are mostly put off by all the religious mumbo jumbo in the first place, especially on this specific topic, as it defies logic...

So even an atheist can understand, if you're going to say, "there is a Heaven, and it is a place of perfection", "why let all the religious people go there then?"

Good points!

Not everyone who believes in reincarnation/transmigration also believes in enlightenment or unification with the divine, etc.

There's also the question of free will vs. predetermination--pretty much if I'm destined for Heaven, I'm going to only to things that will get me there, and if destined for Hell, no amount of effort will change that...

The stricter interpretations are probably not so popular because it makes it too difficult to get in, unless you're in the elect group...By being an X, you're moved to the front of the line automatically....