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Mosaic law still present?

Remté

Active Member
Does the Mosaic law have a relevance in today's society (anywhere or everywhere)? Did Jesus do away with it?

Here's one of those bible webpage articles: (it's long and you find more at the web page, I died blue the short part at the beginning that caused me to post this.) I find this idea proposed a bit absurd. Jesus didn't change the fundamental nature of man.
A great cause of confusion today concerns the place of the Mosaic law in the New Testament believer’s life. While this short study cannot begin to cover all the issues involved, it is my hope that it will shed some light and remove some of the confusion.

One of the profound emphases of the New Testament, especially the epistles of Paul, is that Christians are no longer under the rule of the Mosaic law. This truth is stated in no uncertain terms and in various ways (see Rom. 6:14; 7:1-14; Gal. 3:10-13, 24-25; 4:21; 5:1, 13; 2 Cor. 3:7-18), but in spite of this, there have always been those who insist that the Mosaic Law, at least the Ten Commandments, are still in force for the Christian. In regard to the relation of Christian ethics to the Mosaic Law, Luck writes:

There are Christian teachers of repute who consider the Mosaic law to be the present-day rule of life for the Christian.1 A view not infrequently found among earnest, orthodox believers is that although we are not saved by the law, once we have been justified by faith, then the Mosaic law becomes our rule of life. Those holding such a view generally make a sharp division of the Mosaic law into two parts, which they distinguish as the moral and the ceremonial. The ceremonial portion they consider as having found its fulfillment in Christ at His first advent, and thus as having now passed away. But the moral portion of the Mosaic law, say they, is still in force as the believer’s rule of life. The treatment given to Christian ethics by some highly respected authors is indeed but little more than an exposition of the Decalogue.

It seems exceedingly strange that Bible-believing Christians should advocate such a view, when the New Testament makes it abundantly clear that the believer in Christ is not any longer under the Mosaic law in its entirety… Indeed after having been delivered from the law, to deliberately place ourselves once again under its [control] is said to be “falling from grace.”

But let it be immediately understood that this does not mean to say that we should necessarily behave in a manner just opposite to what the Mosaic law commands—that we should kill, steal, bear false witness, etc. Long before the law was given through Moses, it was utterly wrong to do such evil things. .



By contrast, the age in which we live, the church age, has often and rightly been called the age of grace. This is not because God’s grace has not been manifested in other ages, but because in the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ we have the ultimate manifestation of God’s grace.

Titus 2:11-12. For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all people. It trains us to reject godless ways and worldly desires and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age,

Grace becomes an absolutely inseparable part of the believer’s life in Christ. In the coming of Christ and His death on the cross, the Mosaic Law as a rule of life was terminated. The believer is now to live in the liberty and power of God’s grace by the Spirit, not the rule of law. This new liberty must never be used as an occasion to indulge the flesh or sinful appetites (Gal. 5:13) nor does it mean the Christian has no moral law or imperatives on his life, but simply that he or she is to live righteously by a new source of life as asserted in Romans 8.

Romans 8:2-4. For the law of the life-giving Spirit in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death. 3 For God achieved what the law could not do because it was weakened through the flesh. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and concerning sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the righteous requirement of the law may be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

But a great deal of confusion exists over the issues of law and grace and the place of the Mosaic law in the New Testament believer’s life. However, the basic principle is that the “fusion” of law and grace brings a “confusion” which results in sterile legalism. Because of man’s natural bent toward either legalism or license, the place and function of the Law has been an issue in the Christian community since the very early days of the church. There have always been those who have sought to put the Christian back under the Law or make the Law necessary for both salvation and sanctification. As a result large sections of the New Testament are written directly to this issue (see Acts 15 and the council at Jerusalem; Romans 5:10; 6:14; 7:1f; 2 Cor. 3:6-18; and the entire book of Galatians). These passages were written against a legalistic use of the Law, one which promotes works to gain points with either God or people; works of self-effort rather than a life lived by the power and personal leading of the Holy Spirit.

Of course, other parts of the New Testament are written against license and the misuse of liberty (Gal. 5:13ff. Rom. 6:1ff; 8:4ff; Tit. 2:11-14). But the answer is never to put the Christian back under the Law, but rather a proper understanding and appreciation of God’s grace to us in Christ. Christian liberty is not the right to do as one pleases, but the power, desire, and will to do as one ought in and by the power of God and a regenerated life.

This is ultimately the focus of Titus 2:11-14. The glorious manifestation of God’s grace in Christ instructs and trains believers in how to live.3 This grace provides the incentive, the motive, and the means. Regarding Titus 2:11-14 Ryrie writes:

The verb teaching encompasses the whole concept of growth—discipline, maturing, obedience, progress, and the like. This involves denial of improper things and direction into proper channels. These five terms—godliness, worldly lusts, soberly, righteously, godly—do not describe the content of grace teaching so much as they indicate the object and purposeful goal of that teaching. And this intent is, according to this passage, the ultimate purpose of the Incarnation of Christ. He came to display the grace of God in the changed lives of his people. The final cause of the revelation of the grace of God in Christ is not creed but character.

In Romans 6:14, Paul gives us a fundamental principle as it relates to the Christian’s understanding and the place of the Law in a believer’s life. “For sin will have no mastery over you, because you are not under law butunder grace.” (emphasis mine). Romans 6 deals with the believer’s walk or sanctification. In this regard, under grace is never to be taken as an excuse to sin as one pleases since he is under grace (6:1-2) and it is placed in strong contrast5 with under law. Two things are prominent here: (1) these two (law and grace) are set forth as complete opposites, and (2) the text also makes it clear that the only way the believer is going to experience true sanctification (victory over sin plus the production of positive righteousness) is by grace (the work of God in Christ) and never by law. The reasons, which will be set forth below, are bound up in two issues, the weakness of man’s flesh and the nature of the Law and its inability because of man’s weakness to produce a truly holy life. This is not to say that the Mosaic Law is not good and holy and does not have a function, but this too will be set forth below.

In the Old Testament, the word “law” is used to translated the Hebrew word torah, “instruction.” The Hebrew word for “law” probably comes from the causative form of the verb yarah, “to throw,” “to shoot (arrows).” In the hiphil stem, the verb horah means “to point, guide, instruct, teach.” Hence, the law is that which provides authoritative guidance. In the New Testament, the Greek word used for law is nomos. Nomos means “that which is assigned,” hence, “usage, custom,” and then “law,” or “a rule governing one’s actions.”

Thus God’s law is His system of rules by which He shows and instructs in His will and administers the affairs of the world. Obviously the definition allows for and even implies that there might be differing systems of rules at various times, depending on what particular aspects or how much of His will God wishes to show at a given time.…A system of rules may be tailored for different times, peoples, or purposes. .
The Mosaic Law: Its Function and Purpose in the New Testament
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
Does the Mosaic law have a relevance in today's society (anywhere or everywhere)? Did Jesus do away with it?

Here's one of those bible webpage articles: (it's long and you find more at the web page, I died blue the short part at the beginning that caused me to post this.) I find this idea proposed a bit absurd. Jesus didn't change the fundamental nature of man.

Well, as Paul is a false prophet, under the heading of Matthew 7:15-20, you can toss that babel/babble, and what you are left with is that you must keep the commandments to enter into life (Matthew 19:17). As for when will they "keep My statutes", that is when the stick of Ephraim is joined with the stick of Judah (Ezekiel 37:15-24), which will be after "Har-Magedon", the "valley of YHWHs judgment" (Joel 3:2 & 12).
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Does the Mosaic law have a relevance in today's society (anywhere or everywhere)? Did Jesus do away with it?
The Mosaic Law is only binding on Jews, not Gentiles, and since the vast majority of Christians are Gentiles, ...
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
"Fear God and keep His commandments, because this applies to every person" (Ecclesiastes 12:13).
Sure -- the laws that apply to all people apply to all people. But the Mosaic covenant doesn't apply to all people. There are all sorts of verses that explain that the laws discussed in the desert were between God and the Children of Israel. The Noachide code was on all mankind -- these are the commandments that all must keep, every person.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
Sure -- the laws that apply to all people apply to all people. But the Mosaic covenant doesn't apply to all people. There are all sorts of verses that explain that the laws discussed in the desert were between God and the Children of Israel. The Noachide code was on all mankind -- these are the commandments that all must keep, every person.

Get real, the "Noachide code" is the product of the lying pen of the scribes (Jeremiah 8:8), the Talmud, and you will not find it in the "Law and the prophets". And Ecclesiastes 12:13 is quite clear that "every person should fear God and keep the commandments". As for the "house of Israel", they are as the sands of the sea (Hosea 1:10), where do you think they are, the dark side of the moon, being supplied by the Chinese? Or are you wiser than Solomon? The commandments to be kept according to Yeshua, per Matthew 19:18, were quoted from the 10 Commandments, not from lying pen of the "scribes" (Jeremiah 8:8), the Talmud.

Hosea 1:10
Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.
 
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Tumah

Veteran Member
Get real, the "Noachide code" is the product of the lying pen of the scribes (Jeremiah 8:8), the Talmud, and you will not find it in the "Law and the prophets". And Ecclesiastes 12:13 is quite clear that "every person should fear God and keep the commandments". As for the "house of Israel", they are as the sands of the sea (Hosea 1:10), where do you think they are, the dark side of the moon, being supplied by the Chinese? Or are you wiser than Solomon? The commandments to be kept according to Yeshua, per Matthew 19:18, were quoted from the 10 Commandments, not from lying pen of the "scribes" (Jeremiah 8:8), the Talmud.

Hosea 1:10
Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.
Hosea 1:10 is a messianic prophecy that has not occurred yet, so it's not clear why you are bringing a proof of your position from there.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
Why do you assume that the author of Eccl. was speaking to the world at large and not just to his nation?

Ecclesiastes address is "to every person". His statement isn't to "every person of Israel". The covenant/Commandments applies to "foreigners"/Gentiles, as well (Isaiah 56:6).
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
Ecclesiastes address is "to every person". His statement isn't to "every person of Israel". The covenant/Commandments applies to "foreigners"/Gentiles, as well (Isaiah 56:6).
So like, when I was in school and my teacher said, "everyone has to hand in their assignments by tomorrow", he actually meant, everyone in the whole world and not the company to whom he was directing his statement. I've misunderstood all these years.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
Hosea 1:10 is a messianic prophecy that has not occurred yet, so it's not clear why you are bringing a proof of your position from there.

The present, near future event, will not be as in Hosea 1:10, but will be with respect to a remnant of the numbering like the sand of the sea. You will have the "many", and then they will be the "few", a remnant. The large number exist now, "scattered among the nations" (Ezekiel 36:19). They will have to come through "Jacob's distress" (Jeremiah 30:7), where "I will chasten you justly" (Jeremiah 30:11), where only 1/3 will come through the refining fire (Zechariah 13:8-9), be gathered to the land I gave to Jacob, and have "one leader".

Isaiah 10: 21 A remnant will return, a remnant of Jacob, to the Mighty God. 22Though your people, O Israel, be like the sand of the sea, only a remnant will return. Destruction has been decreed, overflowing with righteousness. 23For the Lord GOD of Hosts will carry out the destruction decreed upon the whole land.…
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
So like, when I was in school and my teacher said, "everyone has to hand in their assignments by tomorrow", he actually meant, everyone in the whole world and not the company to whom he was directing his statement. I've misunderstood all these years.

Was he addressing "everyone in the whole world", "every person", or was he addressing your class?

Do you think that "God will bring every act to judgment everything which is hidden, whether it is good or evil", (Ecclesiastes 12:14) only with respect to the nation of Israel? No, his last valley of judgment (Joel 3:2 & 12) & Revelation 16:16), will be targeted with respect to the nations, whereas Jacob will also be judged (Jeremiah 30:11). They will be judged according to how they treated their neighbors, whether they be "My inheritance Israel" (Joel 3:2), or their foreclosing on the widow next door. The Noachide laws are simply the traditions of men, the lying pen of the scribes (Jeremiah 8:8). The Judges of Israel, the "shepherds of Israel", the scribes, were to be replaced by a righteous judge, because they did they feed the sheep (Ezekiel 34:1-24). As for the fat and strong, "I will destroy" (Ezekiel 34:16).
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Tumah

Veteran Member
The present, near future event, will not be as in Hosea 1:10, but will be with respect to a remnant of the numbering like the sand of the sea. You will have the "many", and then they will be the "few", a remnant. The large number exist now, "scattered among the nations" (Ezekiel 36:19). They will have to come through "Jacob's distress" (Jeremiah 30:7), where "I will chasten you justly" (Jeremiah 30:11), where only 1/3 will come through the refining fire (Zechariah 13:8-9), be gathered to the land I gave to Jacob, and have "one leader".

Isaiah 10: 21 A remnant will return, a remnant of Jacob, to the Mighty God. 22Though your people, O Israel, be like the sand of the sea, only a remnant will return. Destruction has been decreed, overflowing with righteousness. 23For the Lord GOD of Hosts will carry out the destruction decreed upon the whole land.…
Are you actually reading the passages you're pulling these verses out of?
The same verse that you are pulling from Hosea, testifies that the prophecy hasn't happened. Do the people who used to say that we are not G-d's nation now say that we are? No. This verse has not yet happened.
Isa. 10:21 is talking about the remnant of the Northern Kingdom of Israel, not of the entire nation. See 2 Chron. 30. Practically the whole chapter is talking about the Assyrians. How do you even come to this conclusion.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
Was he addressing "everyone in the whole world", "every person", or was he addressing your class?
He didn't specify, but like King Solomon, he was facing us.

Do you think that "God will bring every act to judgment everything which is hidden, whether it is good or evil", (Ecclesiastes 12:14) only with respect to the nation of Israel? No, his last valley of judgment (Joel 3:2 & 12) & Revelation 16:16), will be targeted with respect to the nations, whereas Jacob will also be judged (Jeremiah 30:11). They will be judged according to how they treated their neighbors, whether they be "My inheritance Israel" (Joel 3:2), or their foreclosing on the widow next door. The Noachide laws are simply the traditions of men, the lying pen of the scribes (Jeremiah 8:8). The Judges of Israel, the "shepherds of Israel", the scribes, were to be replaced by a righteous judge, because they did they feed the sheep (Ezekiel 34:1-24). As for the fat and strong, "I will destroy" (Ezekiel 34:16).
.
You misunderstand. There may very well be parts throughout the Tanach that deal with other nations. It's even possible that Solomon or other Tanach authors could teach the Jewish people about things that will happen to other nations. But those passages need to express that. In the case of Eccl. 12:13, he speaks about following the commandments of G-d. But - unless you believe in the Noahide Laws - non-Jews never received any commandments from G-d. Moses is continuously told to "command the children of Israel", not "teach the nations of the world". Solomon could not be telling you to follow commandments that you were not commanded.
Now, if you believed that G-d did give commandments to Adam and Noah, and that those commandments to mankind were preserved, like the rest of the Law we received from G-d, by the Jewish people for any gentiles interested, then I would have to take a step back and agree. That's a different story, because obviously now the verse is saying that each people should follow the commandments that they were given. But if you're going to quote some out of context verses at me from Jeremiah, then I really don't see any place for you to stick yourself into Eccl.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
He didn't specify, but like King Solomon, he was facing us.

Oh, I am sorry, I didn't know you were with Solomon while he was writing Ecclesiastes. Who else was with you when you were with Solomon? I think we will need a 2nd or 3rd witness to confirm your account (Deuteronomy 19:15).
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
He didn't specify, but like King Solomon, he was facing us.


You misunderstand. There may very well be parts throughout the Tanach that deal with other nations. It's even possible that Solomon or other Tanach authors could teach the Jewish people about things that will happen to other nations. But those passages need to express that. In the case of Eccl. 12:13, he speaks about following the commandments of G-d. But - unless you believe in the Noahide Laws - non-Jews never received any commandments from G-d. Moses is continuously told to "command the children of Israel", not "teach the nations of the world". Solomon could not be telling you to follow commandments that you were not commanded.
Now, if you believed that G-d did give commandments to Adam and Noah, and that those commandments to mankind were preserved, like the rest of the Law we received from G-d, by the Jewish people for any gentiles interested, then I would have to take a step back and agree. That's a different story, because obviously now the verse is saying that each people should follow the commandments that they were given. But if you're going to quote some out of context verses at me from Jeremiah, then I really don't see any place for you to stick yourself into Eccl.

After YHWH/s valley of judgment (Joel 3:2 &12), the nations will ask a Jew to be able to go along with them to attach themselves to God. Israel was chosen to be a light to the nations. (Isaiah 49:6) You apparently neither understand the Law and the prophets, nor the message of the prophet of Israel, Yeshua. You follow the lying pen of the scribes (Jeremiah 8:8), and the "Christians"/Gentiles follow their false prophet, the Pharisee Paul. I will also give you the context for Jeremiah 8:8 as follows. It doubles down on the shame of the Jews due to the "lying pen of the scribes". It is apparently almost time for Judah/Jews and Ephraim to "acknowledge their guilt" (Hosea 5:15), for the "LORD" is coming to judge "the shepherds of Israel" (Ezekiel 34:1-24). At that time, there will be one leader (Ezekiel 34:23). But that is all right, pretend you know something, when your multiplication of your own words betray you.(Proverbs 10:9)

Jeremiah…7 Even the stork in the sky knows her appointed seasons. The turtledove, the swift, and the thrush observe their time of migration, but My people do not know the requirements of the LORD. 8How can you say, ‘We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us?’ But in fact, the lying pen of the scribes has produced a deception. 9The wise will be put to shame; they will be dismayed and snared. They have rejected the word of the LORD, so what wisdom do they really have?…

New American Standard Bible Zechariah 8:23
"Thus says the LORD of hosts, 'In those days ten men from all the nations will grasp the garment of a Jew, saying, "Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you."'"

Isaiah 49:6 6he says: "It is too small a thing for you to be my servant to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have kept. I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that my salvation may reach to the ends of the earth."

New American Standard Bible Proverbs 10:9
When there are many words, transgression is unavoidable, But he who restrains his lips is wise.
 
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Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Does the Mosaic law have a relevance in today's society (anywhere or everywhere)? Did Jesus do away with it?

The Mosaic law didn't mean the same thing to the early Xians, as to the jews, 'jews' delineation, in the Bible.

So, acts of the Apostles, book of Galatians,

Good examples of this, for textual clarity.
Now, although the book of Galatians is different from acts of the Apostles, the concepts, are the same.

In other words, the nt isn't actually in the pretext of 'ending the mosaic law because of Jesus', it is in the context that some of the laws weren't supposed to be there, in the first place. This generally doesn't seem understood, in much if xianity. [Even though the text does explain this.

What the nt doesn't explain is the details, like why did they think the priests were worshipping angels, what angels, other g-ds, fallen angels, whatever, however the concept itself, is quite clear.

I would personally say that as far as I know, this doesn't mean all the laws, that are often associated with the 'mosaic law', just some.
We get some explanation for this because Timothy, for example argues from the side of being correct with Moses, just saying those priests were wrong. Same concept in Galatians, however Galatians is more absolute, it seems. This could merely be because the books are written in a different manner, generally they agree, in idea, on this.

///what this means, is Xians don't follow the mosaic laws, but this can vary, many xians traditionally have followed certain rules, so forth.

Xianity itself being in different regions, the churches varied in this understanding.
 
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Shaul

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
In Matthew Jesus said not even the smallest dot of the Law would pass until all things (prophecy) had been accomplished. They all haven’t.

Antinomianism is a perennial error in Christendom which returns again and again.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
Oh, I am sorry, I didn't know you were with Solomon while he was writing Ecclesiastes. Who else was with you when you were with Solomon?
Are you saying that you actually inherited the Book of Eccl. from the gentiles living in Lebanon who received it from Solomon?
My mistake then.

I think we will need a 2nd or 3rd witness to confirm your account (Deuteronomy 19:15).
...are you planning to bring me to court, that this should be relevant?


After YHWH/s valley of judgment (Joel 3:2 &12), the nations will ask a Jew to be able to go along with them to attach themselves to God.
This has not happened yet.

Israel was chosen to be a light to the nations. (Isaiah 49:6)
You mean Isaiah.
You apparently neither understand the Law and the prophets,
One of us doesn't that's for sure.

nor the message of the prophet of Israel, Yeshua.
Yeshua was a High Priest of Israel during the time of Ezra. There is no evidence that he was a prophet.

You follow the lying pen of the scribes (Jeremiah 8:8),
The lying pens of the scribes were claiming that sacrifices will save the nation from the impending Assyrian invasion. I'm pretty sure I'm not following the lying pens of the scribes.

and the "Christians"/Gentiles follow their false prophet, the Pharisee Paul.
There are many things Paul may have been, but a Pharisee is not one of them.

I will also give you the context for Jeremiah 8:8 as follows. It doubles down on the shame of the Jews due to the "lying pen of the scribes".
So, where's the context then?

It is apparently almost time for Judah/Jews and Ephraim to "acknowledge their guilt" (Hosea 5:15),[/quote]
Sounds good to me.

for the "LORD" is coming to judge "the shepherds of Israel" (Ezekiel 34:1-24).At that time, there will be one leader (Ezekiel 34:23).
We eagerly await that time.

But that is all right, pretend you know something, when your multiplication of your own words betray you.(Proverbs 10:9)
You're misinterpreting verses and quoting them out of context and you think I'm the one who's pretending to know something?

Jeremiah…7 Even the stork in the sky knows her appointed seasons. The turtledove, the swift, and the thrush observe their time of migration, but My people do not know the requirements of the LORD. 8How can you say, ‘We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us?’ But in fact, the lying pen of the scribes has produced a deception. 9The wise will be put to shame; they will be dismayed and snared. They have rejected the word of the LORD, so what wisdom do they really have?…
Is this the context you were trying to add? I hope not.

New American Standard Bible Zechariah 8:23
"Thus says the LORD of hosts, 'In those days ten men from all the nations will grasp the garment of a Jew, saying, "Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you."'"

Isaiah 49:6 6he says: "It is too small a thing for you to be my servant to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have kept. I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that my salvation may reach to the ends of the earth."
This is the wrong verse from Isaiah. The quoted verse is referring to Isaiah himself. You want Isa. 60:3. Unless you think that "in those days" 10 people are going to grab Isaiah's garment?

New American Standard Bible Proverbs 10:9
When there are many words, transgression is unavoidable, But he who restrains his lips is wise.
Although Solomon was writing this for Jews, I'm happy to share this wise bit of advice with you.
 
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