Mosaic law still present?

[2ndpillar]

This is a perfect example of straining a gnat while swallowing a camel.

You do know, that that was a phrase used by Yeshua to describe the "scribes and the Pharisees" (Matthew 23:24-25)?

Matthew 23:24-25 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel. 25Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

 

[sooda]

Matthew 23:24-25 & 35 "Woe you blind guides... Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees...that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth".

Matthew clearly doesn't like them.

 

[2ndpillar]

Exactly, especially since Jesus and Paul were operating from a liberal Pharisee perspective. Paul, upon his arrest, identifies himself as being a Pharisee, and being a Pharisee is a choice.

We must be thinking of two different arrest. Paul called himself a "citizen" of Rome, apparently calling on Caesar to save his sorry self. What would Roman soldiers care about Paul being a Pharisee? That was a game played later on the Jews, not the Romans. You will have to remind me where Roman solders arrested Paul, and Paul thinks being a Pharisee will help one iota with Roman soldiers.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

And yours looks like a perfect example of a post that clearly has not studied the early first century Priesthood in Palestine.

Anyone who has studied the early first century priesthood would have said Judea, not Palestine.

 

[sooda]

As subjects of the Persian empire, the Jews enjoyed relative peace and quiet—and complete freedom of religious practice. This, however, was about to change.

In 332 BC—just over a hundred years from the time of Ezra and Nehemiah—Alexander the Great acquired Palestine. While he was quite tolerant of the Jews' religion, Alexander was committed to the creation of a world united by Greek language and culture—Hellenism. As history records, Alexander himself posed little threat to Judea; his successors, however, would aggressively promote his Hellenistic policy.

As we will see, it was the corrupting influence of Hellenism on the Aaronic priesthood that led to their loss of favor among the People of the Land and the subsequent rise of the Hasidim, the progenitors of the Pharisees. With the aid of their scribal cohorts, the outcome would ultimately be Judaism.

Chapter Three - Hellenization and the Rise of the Pharisees

 

[2ndpillar]

Matthew clearly doesn't like them.

As Matthew was quoting Yeshua, I think you have the shoe on the wrong foot. If you think Matthew, or the writer, or editor of Matthew is lying, just say so, but Luke has basically the same story line. If Luke is lying, does that mean that his supposed associate Paul, is also lying. Where does the lying end? What exactly is your foundation? From your slant, are you sure you are not a Wahhabi? Part of those poor Yemeni Christians made to convert, and then made to convert to a purer form of Islam.

 

[oldbadger]

Christ's message was clear: True righteousness must be based on the heart, the inward spirit, and must spring from a genuine desire to obey God's laws fully, in both their letter and intent.

Chapter One - Religion in First-Century Palestine

I don't know why you keep telling me about Pharisees.
Jesus wanted the return of all the discarded laws except for the sacrificial laws and temple demands. He said so. He also showed this in his actions.
The spin was spun after his time.

 

[oldbadger]

Anyone who has studied the early first century priesthood would have said Judea, not Palestine.

Wrong.
Although the majority of the priesthood was centred around the Temple, it controlled the lives of those in Idumea, Perea, Decapolis, the northern provinces controlled by Philip, Gallilee and beyond.

Now if you actually know something about all this, please tell us.

 

[sooda]

I don't know why you keep telling me about Pharisees.
Jesus wanted the return of all the discarded laws except for the sacrificial laws and temple demands. He said so. He also showed this in his actions.
The spin was spun after his time.

After the death of Alexander the priesthood fairly embraced Hellenism.. The Maccabean revolt was about religious freedom.


The controversies of that day were on several fronts, but two were central to the development of Judaism. First, a dynastic struggle for the office of King-High Priest would soon erupt between Hyrcanus' offspring— particularly his grandsons, Hyrcanus II and Aristobulus II. The two would foolishly invite Roman intervention, resulting ultimately in Rome's occupation of Palestine. But it was the fierce rivalry between the Pharisees and the Sadducees that set the character of the day.

The controversy was both political and moral: The Pharisees opposed the Hellenized Sadducean leadership on the grounds that they were unfit to lead the nation; moreover, the Pharisees considered the Sadducees to be utterly ignorant because of their rejection of the scribes' oral law. From the Sadducean perspective, the priests held that the Pharisees' oral law was both illicit and dangerous.

continued

Chapter Three - Hellenization and the Rise of the Pharisees

 

[sooda]

Wrong.
Although the majority of the priesthood was centred around the Temple, it controlled the lives of those in Idumea, Perea, Decapolis, the northern provinces controlled by Philip, Gallilee and beyond.

Now if you actually know something about all this, please tell us.

The Decapolis was Greek. How could they have been controlled by Judah?

Decapolis Area

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Your "shepherds"/judges/leader are to be judged and replaced because they didn't feed the sheep (Ezekiel 34:1-3) and there would be a new judge in town (Ezekiel 34:20-22), for "I will deliver my flock... I will judge between one sheep and another" and that judgment will be with righteousness. As for Deuteronomy 17:8-13, the priest and judges were to judge "according to the terms of the law" not the traditions of men. As for you taking from the script of Yeshua, as for the Pharisees and scribes, he said, do not do as they do, do as they say, for he called them "hypocrites" (Matthew 23:25-35), who will be held responsible for all the blood of all the righteous blood shed on earth. As for your referenced Matthew 23:23:

Matthew 23:23 King James Version (KJV). 23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone

As for schmoozing with hookers, I thought you were the one who went to the Netherlands to schmooze with hookers, and justify it by quickly visiting a shul.

As for keeping the Law, the Israelites did not have your oral traditions, the Talmud, under Moses. As for appointing judges, they were to judge according to the law. As for butchering beef, just drain the blood, because the life is in the blood. As for not working on the Sabbath, it is a sign between God and his people, whereas for 6 days one is to work, and not to work on the 7th. If your "work" is to go to the coal mines 6 days a week, you are to rest on the 7th day. Not brain science. Any targeted nuances were spelled out in the law of God (Exodus 35:3), not the law of man. Apparently, starting a fire for the Israelites was as hard for them as for those on the program called the "Survivors". But it is good that you are reading what Yeshua wrote, but it would be better if you read the entire context, but to be fair, your out of context reference was from Matthew 23:3, not 23:23.

Exodus 35:3 “ You shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the Sabbath day

Your "shepherds"/judges/leader are to be judged and replaced because they didn't feed the sheep (Ezekiel 34:1-3) and there would be a new judge in town (Ezekiel 34:20-22), for "I will deliver my flock... I will judge between one sheep and another" and that judgment will be with righteousness. As for Deuteronomy 17:8-13, the priest and judges were to judge "according to the terms of the law" not the traditions of men. As for you taking from the script of Yeshua, as for the Pharisees and scribes, he said, do not do as they do, do as they say, for he called them "hypocrites" (Matthew 23:25-35), who will be held responsible for all the blood of all the righteous blood shed on earth. As for your referenced Matthew 23:23:

Matthew 23:23 King James Version (KJV). 23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone

As for schmoozing with hookers, I thought you were the one who went to the Netherlands to schmooze with hookers, and justify it by quickly visiting a shul.

As for keeping the Law, the Israelites did not have your oral traditions, the Talmud, under Moses. As for appointing judges, they were to judge according to the law. As for butchering beef, just drain the blood, because the life is in the blood. As for not working on the Sabbath, it is a sign between God and his people, whereas for 6 days one is to work, and not to work on the 7th. If your "work" is to go to the coal mines 6 days a week, you are to rest on the 7th day. Not brain science. Any targeted nuances were spelled out in the law of God (Exodus 35:3), not the law of man. Apparently, starting a fire for the Israelites was as hard for them as for those on the program called the "Survivors". But it is good that you are reading what Yeshua wrote, but it would be better if you read the entire context, but to be fair, your out of context reference was from Matthew 23:3, not 23:23.

Exodus 35:3 “ You shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the Sabbath day

Ezekiel 34:1-3 speaks about SOME shepherds. Nowhere does it state that all the shepherds are negligent. It is a warning only to the bad ones. If you read the fullness of Israel's history, you will see the pendulum swings back and forth -- there are times when the religious leaders and kings and people follow God and his decrees, and other times when they don't.

Ezekiel 34:20-22 simply states that God will judge. I'm not sure why you inserted it into your paragraph as it doesn't support your point.

Deuteronomy 17:11 According to the terms of the law THAT THEY SHALL GIVE YOU. Iow their interpretations, their rulings. Go neither to the right nor the left. Just do it. Kill those who question them.

You will notice that in Matthew 23:1-3, the fact that the Pharisees were hypocrites did NOT mean that Jesus' followers were not to obey what they taught. Jesus instructed them to do and observe EVERYTHING they taught. Just not to do as they did.

You mention Matthew 23:23. I'm not sure why. This verse makes MY point. In it Jesus basically says to first do the basics of the written Torah (mercy, justice, and faith) and THEN STILL DO what is required by Oral Torah (keep the spice tax).

No, I'm not the one that visited the Red Light district in the Netherlands. The only hookers I've ever spoken to were the ones who came to me for counseling for their addictions, and we worked on the general dysfunction of their lives, which included the maladaptive thought processes that enslaved them to prostitution.

Oral Torah has existed in some form since Mt Sinai. It HAS to. There is no way to obey the written Torah without an explanation how to do it.

You have brought up the example of "work" on the Shabbat. You have interpreted "work" as a person's livelihood. But that is an interpretation. Shall the priests in the temple also cease from their livelihood? What about those who care for children? How about doctors in hospitals? How about if a person is a scholar who reads and writes all day long? Is reading and writing forbidden on the Shabbat?

As for Shechita, the Torah requires more than just refraining from blood. It states that there is a kosher manner of SLAUGHTER, and then never states what it is. “Thou shalt slaughter of thy herd and of thy flock, which the Lord hath given thee, as I have commanded thee, and thou shalt eat within thy gates, after all the desire of thy soul” Deuteronomy 12:21

Someone has to rule on these things, and it is not you, and it is not me. It is the Levites and Elders (aka the judges/pharisees/rabbis). My job is to obey, going neither to the right or to the left, as Torah requires of me.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

After the death of Alexander the priesthood fairly embraced Hellenism.. The Maccabean revolt was about religious freedom.

Seriously?

Things got so bad that Jewish men were having their circumcisions reversed and exercising in the nude like the Greeks. The pinacle of degradation was when a pig was sacrifices to an idol of Zeus in the Temple.

The Maccabean Revolt was not about giving greater religious freedom. It was about restoring Israel to her covenantal obedience.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

You do know, that that was a phrase used by Yeshua to describe the "scribes and the Pharisees" (Matthew 23:24-25)?

Matthew 23:24-25 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel. 25Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

Yes it was, which is why it is highly ironic when it fits a Christian posting in a religious forum.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Wrong.
Although the majority of the priesthood was centred around the Temple, it controlled the lives of those in Idumea, Perea, Decapolis, the northern provinces controlled by Philip, Gallilee and beyond.

Now if you actually know something about all this, please tell us.

There was no territory known as Palestine until after the Roman destruction of Jerusalem. It was the Roman tactic to try to get the world to forget that Judea ever existed.

 

[sooda]

Indigochild5559:

Help me out here.. I am trying to understand this.

“Because the Hasmoneans and their Sadducean backers busied themselves with political matters, the pious among the Jews began to feel that the commonwealth was [once again] becoming just another [Greek] state.... “ The Hasidim—for whom spiritual ideals were of paramount importance—”organized themselves in opposition to the Sadducees.... They formed themselves into a brotherhood, or fraternity, which became known as the Pharisees. Their watchword was strict observance of the laws of ritual and moral purity.” While the Pharisees did not oppose the Temple or its services, they felt the priesthood had become compromised by their adoption of Hellenistic ideas—and, in particular, because they “disregarded the oral law” of the Hasidim's scribal leaders ...

Chapter Three - Hellenization and the Rise of the Pharisees

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Indigochild5559:

Help me out here.. I am trying to understand this.

“Because the Hasmoneans and their Sadducean backers busied themselves with political matters, the pious among the Jews began to feel that the commonwealth was [once again] becoming just another [Greek] state.... “ The Hasidim—for whom spiritual ideals were of paramount importance—”organized themselves in opposition to the Sadducees.... They formed themselves into a brotherhood, or fraternity, which became known as the Pharisees. Their watchword was strict observance of the laws of ritual and moral purity.” While the Pharisees did not oppose the Temple or its services, they felt the priesthood had become compromised by their adoption of Hellenistic ideas—and, in particular, because they “disregarded the oral law” of the Hasidim's scribal leaders ...

Chapter Three - Hellenization and the Rise of the Pharisees

It looks very clear to me. What part specifically are you having difficulty with? The only thing I take issue with is the ambiguous wording which leaves it unclear as to whether the Oral Torah originated with the Pharisees or not -- the above CAN be read that the oral laws were developed BY the Pharisees. This is just not true. Oral Torah began at Mt Sinai. It's development continued down through the years, including the years of the Pharisees. It would be a serious mistake to limit the development of Oral Torah to only the years of the Pharisees.

Furthermore, despite the disavowal of oral law, groups such as the Saducees would have HAD to follow a good number of Oral Laws. For example, how to lay tefillin -- even to HAVE tefillin. How many knots to tie tzitzit with. I could go on and on.

 

[sooda]

It looks very clear to me. What part specifically are you having difficulty with? The only thing I take issue with is the ambiguous wording which leaves it unclear as to whether the Oral Torah originated with the Pharisees or not -- the above CAN be read that the oral laws were developed BY the Pharisees. This is just not true. Oral Torah began at Mt Sinai. It's development continued down through the years, including the years of the Pharisees. It would be a serious mistake to limit the development of Oral Torah to only the years of the Pharisees.

Over all did Hellenization change Judaism?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Over all did Hellenization change Judaism?

It's a complicated question and you are asking me to give a simple answer. If I have to give a simple answer it is this:
There have been hellenistic Jews and traditional Jews and they have fought each other in the attempt to control who defines what it means to be a Jew. In the Maccabean wars, clearly the traditionalists won. I would say that something similar to this goes on even to this day, as exhibited in the different denominations of Judaism.

 

[sooda]

It's a complicated question and you are asking me to give a simple answer. If I have to give a simple answer it is this:
There have been hellenistic Jews and traditional Jews and they have fought each other in the attempt to control who defines what it means to be a Jew. In the Maccabean wars, clearly the traditionalists won. I would say that something similar to this goes on even to this day, as exhibited in the different denominations of Judaism.

I think that's what I wanted to hear. It seems very complicated to me as well. Do you think Jerusalem controlled Galilee and the Decapolis as oldbadger claims?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I think that's what I wanted to hear. It seems very complicated to me as well. Do you think Jerusalem controlled Galilee and the Decapolis as oldbadger claims?

I think influenced would be a much better word.