Moses did not write the Torah: The Ultimate Evidence

[Rakhel]

I respect your stance Rakhel as your post are always pretty solid.

but there is really no tie to the Sphinx and hebrews.


To date, the oldest mention of Israelites is the Merneptah stele

Who is saying there is a tie between the Spinx and the Hebrews? I certainly wasn't.

I said that there is no evidence that they built the pyramids and most Jews do not dispute this fact. However, there is an undisputed Egyptologist who says the Hebrews were in Egypt at one point in Egyptian history. And that it very likely that some of them were slaves to some residents. The pyramid builders were paid workers, not slaves, who may or may not have been Hebrews.

 

[Desert Snake]

the only think I claimes as universal was that moses was a charactor created in the 5th and 6th century and at this point never existed as written.

like most historians and scholars im sure this is a core truth in the fact semetic speaking Egyptians or tribes of the area did at one point migrate to Israel.

but moses as the law giver as written never existed.

You always criticize people when they give their opinions however you have no problem, as usual, stating yours as fact.

 

[outhouse]

there is an undisputed Egyptologist who says the Hebrews were in Egypt at one point in Egyptian history. And that it very likely that some of them were slaves to some residents.

please post links so we can research this avenue, im open.

 

[outhouse]

You always criticize people when they give their opinions however you have no problem, as usual, stating yours as fact.

Correct

there is real history, and percieved history due to religious text never intended to be read literally.

 

[Desert Snake]

Correct

there is real history, and percieved history due to religious text never intended to be read literally.

Some of the Bible is metaphor, some is history.

 

[outhouse]

Some of the Bible is metaphor, some is history.

this is true my friend


some is

allegory
poems
songs
fables
legends


some is fiction created to give the people identity. Its a fact Moses is not the author of the first five books. No one disputes this at all. [no one with any credibility]


Im not stating people never migrated from egypt to israel, we know this happened.

It is well known most hebrews have the majority of their roots in Canaan and Mesopotamia

 

[HiddenDjinn]

outhouse,
TBH, the bald assertion that there were no "Hebrews" in Egypt or that there was no Moshe is nothing more than a smug assumption by certain personalities. Further, such a large assumption must be accompanied by evidence. Otherwise, you're doing exactly what you accuse the religious of doing: shooting in the dark.

 

[Shermana]

Outhouse, by your logic, can you prove Alexander the Great existed? (Not the Macedonian army, the person himself). The guy was supposedly told by the Oracle of Egypt that he was a god, so there's some "mythical tales" thrown in too.

 

[outhouse]

outhouse,
TBH, the bald assertion that there were no "Hebrews" in Egypt or that there was no Moshe is nothing more than a smug assumption by certain personalities. Further, such a large assumption must be accompanied by evidence. Otherwise, you're doing exactly what you accuse the religious of doing: shooting in the dark.

I have supplied such evidence.

first I understand the lack of ZERO evidence supporting Hebrews were ever in Egypt, does not mean there is no possibility they were not there.

But the fact is, there is ZERO evidence a hebrew was ever in egypt as a enslaved race.

I have also provided evidence Moses was created in the 7th or 8th century

I have also supplied evidence hebrews/Israelites didnt really exist before 1200 BC [yes I know the Merneptah stele says 1208 BC]

one more time for you my friend.

Moses - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The tradition of Moses as a lawgiver and culture hero of the Israelites can be traced to 8th or 7th century BCE in the kingdom of Judah

While the general narrative of the Exodus and the conquest of the Promised Land may be remotely rooted in historical events, the figure of Moses as a leader of the Israelites in these events cannot be substantiated.


The Exodus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The extant narrative is a product of the late exilic or the post-exilic period (6th to 5th centuries BC), but the core of the narrative is older, being reflected in the 8th to 7th century BC Deuteronomist documents (the history books from Joshua to Kings).[1] A minority of scholars assumes that this has yet older sources that can be traced to a genuine tradition of the Bronze Age collapse of the 13th century BC.


If you have followed what I state im not even bucking the minority view, there may have been a genuine man who led some semetic Egyptians to Israel.


Archaeology

The archaeological evidence of the largely indigenous origins of Israel is "overwhelming," and leaves "no room for an Exodus from Egypt or a 40-year pilgrimage through the Sinai wilderness."[21] For this reason, most archaeologists have abandoned the archaeological investigation of Moses and the Exodus as "a fruitless pursuit."



So if there was no exodus from Egypt, and there is NO evidence of hebrew slaves in egypt, and Moses is a 7th or 8th century creation. What we have here is a fable ment to give a brand new culture of people identity. WHILE giving positive morals in allegory.

 

[HiddenDjinn]

I have supplied such evidence.

first I understand the lack of ZERO evidence supporting Hebrews were ever in Egypt, does not mean there is no possibility they were not there.

But the fact is, there is ZERO evidence a hebrew was ever in egypt as a enslaved race.

I have also provided evidence Moses was created in the 7th or 8th century

I have also supplied evidence hebrews/Israelites didnt really exist before 1200 BC [yes I know the Merneptah stele says 1208 BC]

one more time for you my friend.

Moses - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The tradition of Moses as a lawgiver and culture hero of the Israelites can be traced to 8th or 7th century BCE in the kingdom of Judah

While the general narrative of the Exodus and the conquest of the Promised Land may be remotely rooted in historical events, the figure of Moses as a leader of the Israelites in these events cannot be substantiated.


The Exodus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The extant narrative is a product of the late exilic or the post-exilic period (6th to 5th centuries BC), but the core of the narrative is older, being reflected in the 8th to 7th century BC Deuteronomist documents (the history books from Joshua to Kings).[1] A minority of scholars assumes that this has yet older sources that can be traced to a genuine tradition of the Bronze Age collapse of the 13th century BC.


If you have followed what I state im not even bucking the minority view, there may have been a genuine man who led some semetic Egyptians to Israel.


Archaeology

The archaeological evidence of the largely indigenous origins of Israel is "overwhelming," and leaves "no room for an Exodus from Egypt or a 40-year pilgrimage through the Sinai wilderness."[21] For this reason, most archaeologists have abandoned the archaeological investigation of Moses and the Exodus as "a fruitless pursuit."



So if there was no exodus from Egypt, and there is NO evidence of hebrew slaves in egypt, and Moses is a 7th or 8th century creation. What we have here is a fable ment to give a brand new culture of people identity. WHILE giving positive morals in allegory.

Wikipedia doesn't qualify as evidence. Please cite archeological studies and respected historians(Hint: Those not named Mohammed).

EDIT: Also, using "lack of evidence" as evidence against something is a logical fallacy.

 

[Rakhel]

The Pharaoh. Most, if not all, Egypttologists defer to him when discussing any of the pyramids.

 

[outhouse]

Outhouse, by your logic, can you prove Alexander the Great existed? (Not the Macedonian army, the person himself). The guy was supposedly told by the Oracle of Egypt that he was a god, so there's some "mythical tales" thrown in too.

By scholarships we can pull history out of these text, but only WITH scholarships and historians can give you a clear picture of histroy. From the early books, no. Not alone.

Ah yes my logic, lets not go there because you will loose with your known stance on history. lets just try and stay on topic for your benefit.


OK lets break this down to what we know.

Hebrews/Israeli's did not exist as a state or power before 1200 BC, they were only a nomadic/semi nomadic people as listed in 1208 BC. It has been said these were the foundation of what would become the Israelites.

If Hebrews were nomadic in 1208, how could they all have migrated to the holy land much earlier as written?????????????? HHHHMMmmm???

Why does the bible not list the slow migration from Mesopotamia???

Why does not the bible list the Canaanites becoming Israeli's???

BECAUSE its not accurate history

 

[outhouse]

Wikipedia doesn't qualify as evidence. Please cite archeological studies and respected historians(Hint: Those not named Mohammed).

EDIT: Also, using "lack of evidence" as evidence against something is a logical fallacy.

im sorry you have to discount modern knowledge to protect your personal theology

Wiki is accurate in these cases and had you read the links i provided you would see which scholars take what stance. I even go with with the scholars who are on your side.

Your lack of rebuttle speaks volumes on your lack of knowledge on this subject

 

[HiddenDjinn]

By scholarships we can pull history out of these text, but only WITH scholarships and historians can give you a clear picture of histroy. From the early books, no. Not alone.

Ah yes my logic, lets not go there because you will loose with your known stance on history. lets just try and stay on topic for your benefit.


OK lets break this down to what we know.

Hebrews/Israeli's did not exist as a state or power before 1200 BC, they were only a nomadic/semi nomadic people as listed in 1208 BC. It has been said these were the foundation of what would become the Israelites.

If Hebrews were nomadic in 1208, how could they all have migrated to the holy land much earlier as written?????????????? HHHHMMmmm???

Why does the bible not list the slow migration from Mesopotamia???

Why does not the bible list the Canaanites becoming Israeli's???

BECAUSE its not accurate history

Still waiting for your "evidence".

 

[outhouse]

The Pharaoh. Most, if not all, Egypttologists defer to him when discussing any of the pyramids.

If you dont post who said person is, its of little relevance to the subject. :sorry1:

 

[outhouse]

Still waiting for your "evidence".

what is yours?

 

[outhouse]

I have supplied such evidence.

first I understand the lack of ZERO evidence supporting Hebrews were ever in Egypt, does not mean there is no possibility they were not there.

But the fact is, there is ZERO evidence a hebrew was ever in egypt as a enslaved race.

I have also provided evidence Moses was created in the 7th or 8th century

I have also supplied evidence hebrews/Israelites didnt really exist before 1200 BC [yes I know the Merneptah stele says 1208 BC]

one more time for you my friend.

Moses - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The tradition of Moses as a lawgiver and culture hero of the Israelites can be traced to 8th or 7th century BCE in the kingdom of Judah

While the general narrative of the Exodus and the conquest of the Promised Land may be remotely rooted in historical events, the figure of Moses as a leader of the Israelites in these events cannot be substantiated.


The Exodus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The extant narrative is a product of the late exilic or the post-exilic period (6th to 5th centuries BC), but the core of the narrative is older, being reflected in the 8th to 7th century BC Deuteronomist documents (the history books from Joshua to Kings).[1] A minority of scholars assumes that this has yet older sources that can be traced to a genuine tradition of the Bronze Age collapse of the 13th century BC.


If you have followed what I state im not even bucking the minority view, there may have been a genuine man who led some semetic Egyptians to Israel.


Archaeology

The archaeological evidence of the largely indigenous origins of Israel is "overwhelming," and leaves "no room for an Exodus from Egypt or a 40-year pilgrimage through the Sinai wilderness."[21] For this reason, most archaeologists have abandoned the archaeological investigation of Moses and the Exodus as "a fruitless pursuit."



So if there was no exodus from Egypt, and there is NO evidence of hebrew slaves in egypt, and Moses is a 7th or 8th century creation. What we have here is a fable ment to give a brand new culture of people identity. WHILE giving positive morals in allegory.

 

[HiddenDjinn]

im sorry you have to discount modern knowledge to protect your personal theology

Wiki is accurate in these cases and had you read the links i provided you would see which scholars take what stance. I even go with with the scholars who are on your side.

Your lack of rebuttle speaks volumes on your lack of knowledge on this subject

That which is asserted without proper evidence may be dismissed without proper evidence.
The word is spelled rebuttal, btw.
Extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence(you know, like attempting to refute a historical narrative).

 

[HiddenDjinn]

I have supplied such evidence.

first I understand the lack of ZERO evidence supporting Hebrews were ever in Egypt, does not mean there is no possibility they were not there.

But the fact is, there is ZERO evidence a hebrew was ever in egypt as a enslaved race.

I have also provided evidence Moses was created in the 7th or 8th century

I have also supplied evidence hebrews/Israelites didnt really exist before 1200 BC [yes I know the Merneptah stele says 1208 BC]

one more time for you my friend.

Moses - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The tradition of Moses as a lawgiver and culture hero of the Israelites can be traced to 8th or 7th century BCE in the kingdom of Judah

While the general narrative of the Exodus and the conquest of the Promised Land may be remotely rooted in historical events, the figure of Moses as a leader of the Israelites in these events cannot be substantiated.


The Exodus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The extant narrative is a product of the late exilic or the post-exilic period (6th to 5th centuries BC), but the core of the narrative is older, being reflected in the 8th to 7th century BC Deuteronomist documents (the history books from Joshua to Kings).[1] A minority of scholars assumes that this has yet older sources that can be traced to a genuine tradition of the Bronze Age collapse of the 13th century BC.


If you have followed what I state im not even bucking the minority view, there may have been a genuine man who led some semetic Egyptians to Israel.


Archaeology

The archaeological evidence of the largely indigenous origins of Israel is "overwhelming," and leaves "no room for an Exodus from Egypt or a 40-year pilgrimage through the Sinai wilderness."[21] For this reason, most archaeologists have abandoned the archaeological investigation of Moses and the Exodus as "a fruitless pursuit."



So if there was no exodus from Egypt, and there is NO evidence of hebrew slaves in egypt, and Moses is a 7th or 8th century creation. What we have here is a fable ment to give a brand new culture of people identity. WHILE giving positive morals in allegory.

I said it once, but it seems I must repeat myself: Wikipedia is not evidence.

 

[outhouse]

here is all the major scholars on this subject from both camps, yet no one agrees a enslved race of hebrews were ever in egypt

William Dever agrees with the Canaanite origin of the Israelites but allows for the possibility of some immigrants from Egypt among the early hilltop settlers, leaving open the possibility of a Moses-like figure in Transjordan ca 1250-1200.[88]
Martin Noth holds that two different groups experienced the Exodus and Sinai events, and each group transmitted its own stories independently of the other one, writing that "The biblical story tracing the Hebrews from Egypt to Canaan resulted from an editor's weaving separate themes and traditions around a main character Moses, actually an obscure person from Moab."[89]
William Albright held a more favorable view towards the traditional views regarding Moses, and accept the essence of the biblical story, as narrated between Exodus 1:8 and Deuteronomy 34:12, but recognize the impact that centuries of oral and written transmission have had on the account, causing it to acquire layers of accretions.[89]
Biblical minimalists such as Philip Davies and Niels Peter Lemche regard the Exodus as a fiction composed in the Persian period or even later, without even the memory of a historical Moses