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Mothers lose right to equal salaries; right or wrong?

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
What do you think of this ruling ? I can see both sides of the argument, but it does highlight existing inequalities that may or may not be "fair"; what do you think ?

From:- http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2387750,00.html

The Times






October 04, 2006

Mothers lose right to equal salaries

By David Charter, Europe Correspondent
trans.gif
Women who take time out of the workplace for maternity leave have no automatic right to the same pay as male colleagues who are doing the same job but have not had time off, Europe’s top court ruled yesterday.

NI_MPU('middle');The landmark ruling, described as the most important sex discrimination judgment for ten years, means that companies can legally pay some workers more for length of service even though a woman’s ability to compete on time served will be curtailed by her decision to have children.
Bernadette Cadman, 44, a health inspector from Manchester, brought the case after she realised that she was being paid up to £13,000 less a year than male colleagues who were doing the same job.
Ms Cadman won her case at an employment tribunal in Britain but an appeals court referred it to the European Court of Justice for a ruling on the principle because of doubts over the implications of the ruling.
Last night her union Prospect, which supported her action, tried to put a brave face on the judgement by pointing out that employers could no longer use length of service to justify pay differences “unreasonably”. But the Luxembourg-based court’s ruling clearly shifts the burden of proving a claim for comparable pay onto the employee where length of service is an issue. An employee can claim length of service is irrelevant in their case, but they cannot argue it is irrelevant altogether.
Ms Cadman had claimed that such pay structures unfairly denied women the chance to earn as much as men. She argued that length of service often depended on domestic circumstances such as pregnancy and maternity leave and that employers should have to provide special justification for paying men more than women when they hold the same post and perform the same duties.
The court rejected her claim against the Health and Safety Executive, stating that additional years of service allowed for greater experience which in turn led to improved work performance.
This justified the extra salary paid for length of service even though there was an in-built bias in favour of men who did not take time off to care for children.
Leena Linnainmaa, the president of the European Women Lawyers’ Association, suggested that the situation would only become fairer for women when men took more paternity leave, something most did not do even though they had the right to in most European countries.
“The fact that women take maternity leave is a great burden on their career,” she said.
“We strongly encourage men to take paternity leave and the countries that have no specific legislation on the right to paternity leave to amend their law.”
Emma Hawksworth, a partner in Russell Jones & Walker, which represented Ms Cadman, said: “Additional experience does not lead to better performance indefinitely or in every case. Employers will have to ensure their pay schemes reflect this. Where there is no good reason for using or continuing to use length of service criteria, it will be unlawful to do this.”
Sarah Harman, a leading family solicitor and founder of the pressure group, Families Action for Court Transparency and Openness, said: “To be penalised in terms of salary is a real pity. It seems to go against the run of really encouraging steps in the last 10 to 15 years, which have made women feel that they don’t have to put their children in nurseries and that they can regain the time lost. Length of service and experience are good things, but women who take time off can come back with renewed energy, new ideas, and a different set of skills.”
Bernadette Cadman joined the Civil Service in 1984 and transferred to the HSE as a trainee inspector in 1990. Three years later, she was made an inspector and in November 1996 was promoted to principal inspector. In 2001, backed by Prospect, she asked to be paid the same as four male colleagues who were in similar jobs.
 

kiwimac

Brother Napalm of God's Love
I consider that they might have to re-think this ruling as it seems (to me anyway) to contravene international law.

Kiwimac
 

Inky

Active Member
This reminds me of all the statistics about how marriage affects men and women differently. Men's average salary, mental health and physical health go up when they're married, while women's go down on each of those parameters. There's going to be problems with discrimination until employers (and society in general) stop assuming that "married woman" means "part-time housewife".
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
kiwimac said:
I consider that they might have to re-think this ruling as it seems (to me anyway) to contravene international law.

Kiwimac

O.K, so answer me this scenario:-


You are an employer. It costs you $50,000 to train an employee; you get an application from an equally qualified man and a woman.

She is married, and young; she has no children. They are equally qualified and capable (I reprat that); which one would you take on ?

Personally, I'd take on the man - not because I am sexist, but because I know that the woman (by the law of averages) is likely t want to start a family at some time.

During that time, I havce to pay her maternity pay; I have to replace her by another trained person (and pay that person as well); at the end of her maternity leave (six months here), she has a right to come back.

What do I do about the person who was doing her job while she was away ? Do I sack him/her ? How much more training will the mother need (having been out of the working environment for 6 months ?

And what Happens if she decides not to come back to work ? I have invested $50,000 in her training; her working life has lasted (say) 10 years . Had I employed a man, I could have hoped that he would stay until retirement.

Thoughts ?
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
jmoum said:
Actually, that was the argument I was going to throw in because that's the one that Employers use the most and while I don't think the entire thing is fair, there is certainly a lot of validity to that argument.

I don't think it is particularly "Fair" either, but then, not much in life is "Fair".
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
michel said:
By David Charter, Europe Correspondent
trans.gif
Women who take time out of the workplace for maternity leave have no automatic right to the same pay as male colleagues who are doing the same job but have not had time off, Europe’s top court ruled yesterday.

NI_MPU('middle');The landmark ruling, described as the most important sex discrimination judgment for ten years, means that companies can legally pay some workers more for length of service even though a woman’s ability to compete on time served will be curtailed by her decision to have children. ...the Luxembourg-based court’s ruling clearly shifts the burden of proving a claim for comparable pay onto the employee where length of service is an issue. An employee can claim length of service is irrelevant in their case, but they cannot argue it is irrelevant altogether.
The problem that I see with this ruling is that it is a step away from the community-minded attitude that inspired the move towards paid maternity leave --that being for businesses to be a part of the community not just by serving it but by participating in it as a partner --and towards a "looking out for number one" mentality that sets businesses against the community. 'Tis sad.

michel said:
The court rejected her claim against the Health and Safety Executive, stating that additional years of service allowed for greater experience which in turn led to improved work performance.
Bullocks. I'm wondering now how they supported that position (and chaffing at the inadequacy of news reports).

michel said:
Emma Hawksworth, a partner in Russell Jones & Walker, which represented Ms Cadman, said: “Additional experience does not lead to better performance indefinitely or in every case. Employers will have to ensure their pay schemes reflect this. Where there is no good reason for using or continuing to use length of service criteria, it will be unlawful to do this.”
Just so. Performance itself should be the measure.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
michel said:
O.K, so answer me this scenario:-

You are an employer. It costs you $50,000 to train an employee; you get an application from an equally qualified man and a woman.

She is married, and young; she has no children. They are equally qualified and capable (I reprat that); which one would you take on ?

Personally, I'd take on the man - not because I am sexist, but because I know that the woman (by the law of averages) is likely t want to start a family at some time.
And if he takes paternity leave, then your logic goes right out the window.

michel said:
What do I do about the person who was doing her job while she was away ? Do I sack him/her ? How much more training will the mother need (having been out of the working environment for 6 months ?

And what Happens if she decides not to come back to work ? I have invested $50,000 in her training; her working life has lasted (say) 10 years . Had I employed a man, I could have hoped that he would stay until retirement.
If you hired someone from an agency for the period of the maternity leave, then they will not expect to remain on after she returns. Little in the way of re-training should be necessary, unless her job has changed dramatically.

If she decides not to come back to work, the situation is no different than an employee who has left to pursue other work. You advertise the position and get someone new.
 

Tigress

Working-Class W*nch.
Women who take time out of the workplace for maternity leave have no automatic right to the same pay as male colleagues who are doing the same job but have not had time off, Europe’s top court ruled yesterday.

The landmark ruling, described as the most important sex discrimination judgment for ten years, means that companies can legally pay some workers more for length of service even though a woman’s ability to compete on time served will be curtailed by her decision to have children.
Though I do see, and understand both sides of the argument, I have to say that ultimately, I do not believe that a women's pay should be deducted simply for going on maternity leave. I feel that by paying a woman less, it's a lot like saying that nature's design is somehow our fault.--As a side note: Children are not 'time off.' :no: I agree with Willamena.
 

MaddLlama

Obstructor of justice
If this system is supposed to be fair, then you have to take it one step further - every person who takes a paid vacation, man or woman, will have to have thier pay reduced when they return. After all, who are these people to take a vacation and make someone else do all thier work? Time is money, and by going on vacation that person is wasting both for the company. That's what this is about isn't it?
 

Yerda

Veteran Member
michel said:
O.K, so answer me this scenario:-
OK.


michel said:
They are equally qualified and capable (I reprat that); which one would you take on ?
Which of the two prospective employees makes the better cheesecake? Probably the woman, though of course I'm not sexist it's just that women should spend more time in the kitchen (by the law of averages).

michel said:
Personally, I'd take on the man - not because I am sexist, but because I know that the woman (by the law of averages) is likely t want to start a family at some time.
That's not sexist?

Infact, why am I asking? That is quite clearly sexual discrimination.

michel said:
What do I do about the person who was doing her job while she was away ? Do I sack him/her ?
His/her contract should've been temporary, pending the woman's decision to return.

michel said:
How much more training will the mother need (having been out of the working environment for 6 months ?
Enough.

michel said:
And what Happens if she decides not to come back to work ?
The quality of tea will never be the same...

michel said:
I have invested $50,000 in her training; her working life has lasted (say) 10 years . Had I employed a man, I could have hoped that he would stay until retirement.

Thoughts ?
Aye. Women are exploited and maternity leave laws don't go far enough. They get underpaid. They have a harder time reaching senior positions. They work as hard as men. Women should not be penalised for making a family. Our societies are crafted around families, yet we expect women to carry a heavier burden in terms of employment opportunities, as well as the obviously greater investement they make in raising a child.

Half of our bloody species, and people still struggle to understand that it's wrong to oppress them. Makes me want to say sweary words!
 

Tigress

Working-Class W*nch.
Jaiket said:
Half of our bloody species, and people still struggle to understand that it's wrong to oppress them. Makes me want to say sweary words!


lol I hope you don't mind, but I'm using this as my new signature. :)
 

Inky

Active Member
The problem with the whole thing of favoring men because they won't go raise children is the assumption that the children, who are the product of two people, are primarily the responsibility of one of them. Maternity leave is not a long time when you add it as one aspect of the other vacations male and female workers take. It goes back to automatically implying that at-home work, including childcare, is "women's work" and her husband can skate by contributing far less, therefore leaving more time for his career.
 

Djamila

Bosnjakinja
I don't really care, me. I'm not afraid of oppression of women in Europe. If it's wrong, it'll be fixed. A generation raised with near-equality is in power now and it won't go back as it used to be.
 

Draka

Wonder Woman
I'm sorry, but one of the main things that struck out at me in this thread was the declaration of maternity leave being 6 months long. WOW! Must be sweet. Here you've got 6 weeks. With the jobs I've had with the children I've had, I worked up until the day they were born and went right back to work exactly 6 weeks later with the exception of this last child.

I hate to play devil's advocate in this, but if you look at it this way...that every child means half a year off...that makes a huge difference. Especially if they have 3 or 4 kids. I highly doubt Paternity leave would be granted for that long in any case. It looks like an arguable case for length of service pay adjustments. Something we don't seem to even need here.

My mother has worked in the same place for over 12 years and works with several other women in their "empty nest" years. No worry of maternity leave there, yet the women all make less than the men there. I'm talking about guys who get hired straight out of high school making more than women who have worked there for 15 years.

Women get crap for equal pay in many circumstances. Not fair and it's a long time coming until it is. Until men start having babies we have this battle to contend with.
 

Djamila

Bosnjakinja
6 weeks? We get a whole year, at full pay, in Bosnia - and an additional 6 months at half-pay if you want it.
 

Djamila

Bosnjakinja
One thing communists got right, I suppose. Here are some stats from other European countries:

Ukraine: 126 days at full pay
Turkey: 12 weeks at roughly 67% pay
Sweden: 480 days at gradual pay decreases.
Russia: 140 days at full pay
Portugal: 98 days at full pay
Finland: 105 days at 80% pay
Bulgaria: 180 days at full pay
Belarus: 126 days at full pay
 

Draka

Wonder Woman
Djamila said:
One thing communists got right, I suppose. Here are some stats from other European countries:

Ukraine: 126 days at full pay
Turkey: 12 weeks at roughly 67% pay
Sweden: 480 days at gradual pay decreases.
Russia: 140 days at full pay
Portugal: 98 days at full pay
Finland: 105 days at 80% pay
Bulgaria: 180 days at full pay
Belarus: 126 days at full pay

6 weeks/45 days at no pay (unless you are in the military or salaried, then you still get paid of course)

Oh, and paternity leave is dependent upon employer. Turk was allowed 3 days paternity leave.
 

Random

Well-Known Member
The company I work for sees female employees take maternity leave frequently, it is a commonly accepted thing and no-one quibbles about paying mothers-to-be or finding replacements whilst they are off having their children. I think this is right and proper, and I disagree with the wording of the law courts in this case: the woman gets paid not equal to a man but rather equal to the remuneration for her position. That's a vital distinction, because pay structures should not rightly take gender into account. Employers need to understand that if they are going to profit, as they do, from a diverse workplace and a more numerous skilled workforce including women then some concessions to their biological needs are necessary.

I think that men who challenge these things in courts and make issues of the essential differences and requirements of the female sex in the workplace are lesser men. It is much more noble, honourable and manly to simply say however much she is getting paid to bring new life into the world, it's not enough. After that, leave it alone and mind your own damn business.
 

Draka

Wonder Woman
Godlike said:
The company I work for sees female employees take maternity leave frequently, it is a commonly accepted thing and no-one quibbles about paying mothers-to-be or finding replacements whilst they are off having their children. I think this is right and proper, and I disagree with the wording of the law courts in this case: the woman gets paid not equal to a man but rather equal to the remuneration for her position. That's a vital distinction, because pay structures should not rightly take gender into account. Employers need to understand that if they are going to profit, as they do, from a diverse workplace and a more numerous skilled workforce including women then some concessions to their biological needs are necessary.

I think that men who challenge these things in courts and make issues of the essential differences and requirements of the female sex in the workplace are lesser men. It is much more noble, honourable and manly to simply say however much she is getting paid to bring new life into the world, it's not enough. After that, leave it alone and mind your own damn business.

If only more thought like you. Unfortunately, I think what I mentioned before might be the only thing that would change certain men's minds ... men having babies. As that isn't going to happen, I can only wish that your last sentiments resound in their heads eventually.
 
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