I did. Arabic is also my native language, so I know that "ring" is one of the definitions of the word in question. The context of the Qur'an makes it clear that the text refers to Muhammad as the final prophet, though.
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Muhammad is not Seal of Prophets, He is Ring of Prophets!
- Thread starter InvestigateTruth
- Start date
I did. Arabic is also my native language, so I know that "ring" is one of the definitions of the word in question. The context of the Qur'an makes it clear that the text refers to Muhammad as the final prophet, though.
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
Khaatam never meant Last in Classical Arabic or early Islam. Later people started using this word incorrectly to also mean Last. When an incorrect idea is used for centuries by many, then it becomes like true.
I don't see how the context of the verse is about finality. Please do elaborate.
Beside this, there is a word in Quran that actually means Last or Final. That word is Akhir.
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InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
One thing I would say, the mission of Shoghi Effendi was not to translate Quran and Bible. He just used the existing translation of the Quran. Whichever translation was the best. But translations of Quran were not done by infallible people. So, it shouldn't be surprising if there are inaccuracies in them.
I believe it was part of Shoghi Effendi's mission to translate the words of Baha'u'llah in the Iqan though, and he still uses "seal" and "last" there, making this a moot point.
But anyhow if a person such as Shoghi Effendi knew there were things that were inaccurate to the point of being misleading in those translations and used them anyway then it is apparent to me that Shoghi Effendi didn't mind people being misled - which speaks volumes to the supposedly truthful and "All Merciful" nature of your God.
In my opinion.
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
Yes, Shoghi Effensi translated the Iqan, but he used existing translation of the Quran, for the Quranic verses and terms.
That is sufficient for its purpose because the English Iqan, is for English readers, who are mostly from Non-muslim backgrounds. Their issue is not about finality of revelation of Quran so much. The Muslims often are Arabs or Persians, who would read in Arabic. Either way, we are encouraged to do our investigations as well. Many times Shoghi Effendi said Bahais are encouraged to do their own investigation as well. They came to teach investigation to us, rather giving us all the information.
Truthseeker
Non-debating member when I can help myself
You're going back to this again? In His Will and Testament Abdu'l-Baha said this:
O my loving friends! After the passing away of this wronged one, it is incumbent upon the Aghṣán (Branches), the Afnán (Twigs) of the Sacred Lote-Tree, the Hands (pillars) of the Cause of God and the loved ones of the Abhá Beauty to turn unto Shoghi Effendi — the youthful branch branched from the two hallowed and sacred Lote-Trees and the fruit grown from the union of the two offshoots of the Tree of Holiness, — as he is the sign of God, the chosen branch, the Guardian of the Cause of God, he unto whom all the Aghṣán, the Afnán, the Hands of the Cause of God and His loved ones must turn.
He is the Interpreter of the Word of God and after him will succeed the first-born of his lineal descendents.
‘Abdu’l-Bahá, "Will and Testament of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá", 1.16
As you know, His was the best translation of Baha'u'llah's Writings because he knew what they meant. Wouldn't that be the same with translations of the Word of God before Baha'u'llah? However, you are saying that it was not his mission to translate Qur'an and Bible. I'm not sure what you are saying. Excuse me, I'm tired, I may not be thinking as clearly as I would like.
Question to the oxymoronic honest apologist: How many English readers can your God mislead before it is concluded your God is not "*All* Merciful"
Oxymoronic honest apologists answer:
I dont care how many English readers are lead astray, I only care about what makes my life as an apologist easier.
Me to you: Your point is moot because you have already acknowledged that in Arabic Baha'u'llah uses the word "Akhir" to refer to Muhammad which you have acknowledged in post #27 means last. Thus even Baha'u'llah's Arabic is misleading to Muslims according to your logic as i see it.
Sure, but I believe misleading people is giving them wrong answers as opposed to not giving them answers, and im pretty sure investigation of truth implies not denying obvious truths to suit an apologetic agenda.
In my opinion.
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
What i am saying the fact is, Shoghi Effendi used the translation of Quran that already existed. Usually He did not translate them himself. If you want you can search on that and you will see for yourself and make your own conclusions.
Kitáb-i-Íqán and the Qur'an
Includes table of Qur'anic quotations from the Íqán compared with their counterparts in the Qur'an, and an index to surihs and verses in the <I>K...
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
I am sorry, but I don't think what I said was really clear.
Do you know that Jesus said He is the first and last? Do you conclude that this means after Jesus there won't be anymore prophets? Or before Jesus there was no prophets?
As Baha'u'llah says in Iqan, That's what Muhammad said too. He said I am the first and last (akhir).
Then Baha'u'llah goes on, and interprets that when Muhammad said He is the first and the Last, this means, that all Prophets are one and the same. This is why if Muhammad says He is Adam, it is true. If He says He is Moses, it is true. In reality there is only One Messenger who appears. This is a spiritual reality. Then He goes on and says, therefore when Muhammad said He is Khaatam, any other previous prophets could have said that they are Khaatam. Adam can also be Khaatam, Moses can also be Khaatam.
Now you want to conclude from these that Baha'u'llah meant to say Khaatam means Last? No, Akhir means Last. But if you want to conclude for yourself that Baha'u'llah meant to say Khaatam means Last, then that's your own conclusion. I think you are reading more than what He wrote.
From your link, "It is clear that Shoghi Effendi made changes to the punctuation, spelling, capitalization, syntax, words, and consequently the meaning of Rodwell's work"What i am saying the fact is, Shoghi Effendi used the translation of Quran that already existed. Usually He did not translate them himself. If you want you can search on that and you will see for yourself and make your own conclusions.
Kitáb-i-Íqán and the Qur'an
Includes table of Qur'anic quotations from the Íqán compared with their counterparts in the Qur'an, and an index to surihs and verses in the <I>K...bahai-library.com
In other words Shoghi Effendi didn't just copy/paste the words as you imply, if they were wrong to Shoghi Effendi's opinion He changed them.
In my opinion.
Truthseeker
Non-debating member when I can help myself
Those translations look different from Rodwell's translations to me. Since the Arabic words are behind each translations, of course there would be a similarity of meaning for any translation. Sometimes the wording is very different.What i am saying the fact is, Shoghi Effendi used the translation of Quran that already existed. Usually He did not translate them himself. If you want you can search on that and you will see for yourself and make your own conclusions.
Kitáb-i-Íqán and the Qur'an
Includes table of Qur'anic quotations from the Íqán compared with their counterparts in the Qur'an, and an index to surihs and verses in the <I>K...
This is besides the point. Here are some references to the Seal of the Prophets in the Iqan by Baha'u'llah as translated by Shoghi Effendi:
Notwithstanding the obviousness of this theme, in the eyes of those that have quaffed the wine of knowledge and certitude, yet how many are those who, through failure to understand its meaning, have allowed the term “Seal of the Prophets” to obscure their understanding, and deprive them of the grace of all His manifold bounties! Hath not Muḥammad, Himself, declared: “I am all the Prophets?” Hath He not said as We have already mentioned: “I am Adam, Noah, Moses, and Jesus?” Why should Muḥammad, that immortal Beauty, Who hath said: “I am the first Adam” be incapable of saying also: “I am the last Adam”? For even as He regarded Himself to be the “First of the Prophets” — that is Adam — in like manner, the “Seal of the Prophets” is also applicable unto that Divine Beauty. It is admittedly obvious that being the “First of the Prophets,” He likewise is their “Seal.”
Bahá’u’lláh, "The Kitáb-i-Íqán", 172
And were they all to proclaim: “I am the Seal of the Prophets,” they verily utter but the truth, beyond the faintest shadow of doubt. For they are all but one person, one soul, one spirit, one being, one revelation. They are all the manifestation of the “Beginning” and the “End,” the “First” and the “Last,” the “Seen” and “Hidden” — all of which pertain to Him Who is the innermost Spirit of Spirits and eternal Essence of Essences.
Bahá’u’lláh, "The Kitáb-i-Íqán", 196
Furthermore, among the “veils of glory” are such terms as the “Seal of the Prophets” and the like, the removal of which is a supreme achievement in the sight of these base-born and erring souls. All, by reason of these mysterious sayings, these grievous “veils of glory,” have been hindered from beholding the light of truth. Have they not heard the melody of that bird of Heaven, uttering this mystery: “A thousand Fáṭimihs I have espoused, all of whom were the daughters of Muḥammad, Son of ‘Abdu’lláh, the ‘Seal of the Prophets?’” Behold, how many are the mysteries that lie as yet unravelled within the tabernacle of the knowledge of God, and how numerous the gems of His wisdom that are still concealed in His inviolable treasuries!
Bahá’u’lláh, "The Kitáb-i-Íqán", 178
In Gleanings, Baha'u'llash is translated as saying this, as pointed out before:
It is evident that every age in which a Manifestation of God hath lived is divinely ordained, and may, in a sense, be characterized as God’s appointed Day. This Day, however, is unique, and is to be distinguished from those that have preceded it. The designation “Seal of the Prophets” fully revealeth its high station. The Prophetic Cycle hath, verily, ended. The Eternal Truth is now come. He hath lifted up the Ensign of Power, and is now shedding upon the world the unclouded splendor of His Revelation.
Bahá’u’lláh, "Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh", 25
My point in quoting these is whatever the original wording is, the Guardian translated all these passages in such a way as to fit what Baha'u'llah was saying. Either that or that's the way they should be translated in the judgement of the Guardian.
I don't know why you muddied up the waters when I was already satisfied with the situation.
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
OK, Seal, is not a wrong translation then. But there is no doubt that Khaatam means a signet ring, which could have been used as a seal to stamp. That's for sure.
Now for example these words of the Bab and Bahaullah translated:
"For all that hath been exalted in the Bayán is but as a ring (khaatam) upon My hand, and I Myself am, verily, but a ring (Khaatam) upon the hand of Him Whom God shall make manifest"!
Bahá'í Reference Library - God Passes By, Pages 89-103
reference.bahai.org
In God passes by, the same word is translated as Ring, by Shoghi Effendi.
In fact what Muhammad said is very similar. He was saying He is the Ring of Prophets. Meaning, He is like a Ring on the Finger of Prophets, just as the Bab said, He is like a Ring on the finger of Baha'u'llah.
The same word is used in Aqdas as well:
The Lord hath decreed that the dead should be interred in coffins made of crystal, of hard, resistant stone, or of wood that is both fine and durable, and that graven rings (Khaatam) should be placed upon their fingers. He, verily, is the Supreme Ordainer, the One apprised of all.
Again, same word, is translated as Ring in Aghdas.
So, the only reason that in Iqan, Shoghi Effendi translated the title of Muhammad as Seal, is because most translators had already used the word Seal, so, He just used their translation for the title of Muhammad. It is not like God forbidden, Shoghi Effendi did not know, it really means Ring.
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InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
That's right. But when it comes to the title of Muhammad, Shoghi Effendin just used "Seal", as Muslims had already translated it.
Methink, Because it was not wise and worthy to confront so many who already thought this word mean The Last. The Bab and Baha'u'llah resolved it indirectly. Instead of focusing on the meaning of the word, Khaatam, Baha'u'llah said, if you want to think Khaatam is Last, Final, it's fine. But I am the Lord of the Day Judgement. This is the Resurrection Day. It does not matter if Muhammad was Last Prophet, Final Messenger or whatever you want. It doesn't make any difference. Quran promised of the meeting with Lord, and I am the fulfilment of this Promise.
See, I am a Persian Bahai for more than 30 years. My parents are Bahais. My grand parents from both sides were Bahais. But, even me, till 10 years ago thought Khaatam means, Last!.
So, if me, with all that background, who can read and write Arabic, still thought Khaatam means Last, what can I expect from the Muslims, or even non-Bahais, and other Bahais? This is how a false idea spreads and brainwashed everyone.
See, my last post for @Truthseeker .
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Baha'u'llah said no such thing.
According to my understanding Arabic words can change meaning dependant on context. In context (which i believe you are ignoring) it means seal and is synonymous with last in the Iqan passages cited.
P1 It was a false idea
P2 Your God helped spread it
Conclusion: Your God brainwashed people and is untrustworthy.
I see the above conclusion as the logical inevitability of the premises you put forward.
In my opinion.
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
I looked at many Hadithes to see how the word Khaatam was used in other instances. It was always used as a Signet Ring. I never saw otherwise. So to say, it can also mean Last, would need to show some other instances where it meant Last.
There are many Hadithes that Muhammad said to Ali:
"I am the Khatam of Prophets, and you are Khaatam of Guardians."
But Ali was not the Last Gurdian of Islam. There came 11 more. So, now tell me, what would Khaatam mean in above Hadith?
I don't claim to know which of the imams where given the title "Guardian", or which of the many apparently contradictory hadith were actually spoken by Muhammad, but I would suggest that;
1. You are trying to apply the word from a hadith which may have a different context to the Iqan.
And
2. If you are really going to quote the hadith at least quote all of them that are relevant as there are many attributed to Muhammad where He claims to be the "last" prophet.
In my opinion.
Also @InvestigateTruth
You could be making a post-hoc rationalisation there.
We know after the fact that there are 12 imams recognised in Shia Islam, but unless Muhammad said there will be 11 or 12 "Guardians" you have no way of knowing that He believed there would be.
In my opinion.
You could be making a post-hoc rationalisation there.
We know after the fact that there are 12 imams recognised in Shia Islam, but unless Muhammad said there will be 11 or 12 "Guardians" you have no way of knowing that He believed there would be.
In my opinion.
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
There are many Hadithes that Muhammad said there will be 12 Guardians in His Faith. 12 Imams, everyone of them is Guardian according to Shia.
Now, there are several Hadithes that says, Ali is Khatam of Guardians. Conclusion is yours.
Well unless Shoghi Effendi refers to these hadith in English we can't say for sure how He would interpret them.
For example in Iqan it is written (paraphrasing) all the prophets are the seal, so Shoghi Effendi doesn't appear to have any problem with there being another seal or another last after the first, so maybe He would have translated that hadith as "seal" of the Guardians, we simply don't know unless He translated it to English - even then it may be contextually dependent.
In my opinion.
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
My reaserch tells me, in early Islam, Khaatam, had only one meaning. And that was Signet Ring.
It is like the Sun in English. There is only one thing that we call the Sun in English.
Now, the Sun can be used metaphorically as well. Sun of Righteousness.
Khaatam can be used Metaphorical as well. Khaatam of Prophets, or signet ring of prophets. But what is intended by this?
Quran verse 3:7 says, no one knows its interpretation except God and those well-grounded in knowledge.
That's the whole point I am making here. If you had seen my other thread, about verse 3:7. Why there are verses which are unclear in the Quran?
Because these verses are meant to conceal the prophecies about the Next Revelation of the Quran, and even produce a misunderstanding that Muhammad is Last one, by calling Him, Khaatam, which is an unclear word (unclear what is intended, but many thought it means Seal as in Last).
And if you have seen my other thread about God creating Dark and Light, then this is exactly how God creates Dark, if you know what I mean. By using the unclear words, which misleads those who God does not want to guide, thus God creates darkness.