Muhammad's Troubling Marriages to Aisha and Safiyah

[Al-Fatihah]

yes, Aisha was playing with dolls after marriage. very matured.

Response: Yes. Very mature.

 

[oldbadger]

As for your question, there is absolutely nothing morally wrong in marrying a 10 year old girl, if such a girl is mature and does not disapprove of the marriage.

Unfortunately for you......... you live in the United States. Marrying any ten year old girl is regarded as against the accepted standards of the country, so it is therefore morally wrong.
Anybody who, under any circumstances, attempted to have sexual relations with a 10 year old girl would be sent to prison for a very very long time and be entered upon the sexual offender's register for their lifetime.... well, in England, anyway.

 

[Al-Fatihah]

Unfortunately for you......... you live in the United States. Marrying any ten year old girl is regarded as against the accepted standards of the country, so it is therefore morally wrong.
Anybody who, under any circumstances, attempted to have sexual relations with a 10 year old girl would be sent to prison for a very very long time and be entered upon the sexual offender's register for their lifetime.... well, in England, anyway.

Response: The law of the country is not what is being questioned and contested. The issue is whether Muhammad was just in his marriage with Aisha and since there is no harm in his marriage to her, then the marriage was just.

 

[oldbadger]

Response: The law of the country is not what is being questioned and contested. The issue is whether Muhammad was just in his marriage with Aisha and since there is no harm in his marriage to her, then the marriage was just.

No.
Muhammad's conduct has driven conduct in many countries up until this day. In England we are asked to donate to charities who work to help young girls who are in seriously dangerous infant childbirths because of his behaviour and standards. They do not have the absolute right to refuse these marriages.

The vast majority here think that infant marriage is wicked, unjust and immoral. They also do in your country. You are banned from such activities in your country, you know.

 

[Shad]

Actually the links show there are risks for the child when it comes to having sex with them, the risk of pregnancy to the child-mother and child. So either you never read these links or you are stupid. Which is it? Are you a liar or stupid?

WHO/Europe | Child marriage – a threat to health

Health Consequences of Child Marriage in Africa - Volume 12, Number 11—November 2006 - Emerging Infectious Disease journal - CDC
http://www.unicef-irc.org/publications/pdf/digest7e.pdf

Not that you will read any of the links. You must defend your ideology and your idol tooth and nail. It is far more important than any honestly or even modest reading comprehension. Ideological fascism has blinded you.

 

[Chev Chelios]

Response: If Muhammad had sex with Aisha when she was 9, then you should be able to provide proof saying so. You have none. Thus debunking yourself. If Muhammad started a war against innocent people, you should be able to provide proof for that as well. We see none. Thus your own weak rebuttal refutes you and supports the fact that Muhammad's marriages were just. Thanks for the assistance.

Erm.....I have already shown that Islam's most AUTHENTIC and TRUSTED sources have Aishas age at an appalling age of 6 at the time 54 year old Muhammad deemed her to be his wife and then a truly disturbing 8 years 9 months when he deemed her ready for sex. I also put forward the incredibly plausible argument that due to the timeless nature of God, coupled to his unshakable, unchangeable morality, the God of Islam clearly sanctions child marriage by virtue of the simple fact that the God of Islam sanctioned child marriage!

What God does in 620AD he will surely do in 2013. IF your God had pointed out the context of the marriage and clearly gave teachings to future Moslems that child brides was not good practice then I can accept this. But he didn't - and so what have we seen and continue to see in the Islamic world due to your God and your prophets actions? Exactly. And this is the perfect religion??

I have also pointed out the Koran and Sahih Hadith clearly propergate the age of consent being at the age of Menarche - a worrying piece of Islamic theology which has been codified into Islamic Law - this age is something you have openly acknowledged and endorsed.

So where have I rebutted my own weak arguments pal?

 

[Chev Chelios]

Response: There is no harm in consensual sex in marriage with someone who has reached maturity and puberty, nor can you name any harm. Thus your own failure to do so supports the fact that Islamic marriages are just. Whereas, when we adopt the secular laws or marriage, the age of marriage varies from country to country. So one can be legally married in one place, then move somewhere else and be considered a pedophile. Therefore, pedophilia is not based on any moral reasoning, but based on geography. Showing the complete irrationality of European and American law on pedophilia.

Here again, we see the odious beliefs of mainstream Islam and the twisted prism through which so many followers of this faith view the world. To say there is no harm in consensual sex for girls who have been 'deemed' mature, such as a girl of 8 (which you mentioned in a previous post) is astonishing. What you are saying flies in the face of the medical profession which have been a potent force in our understanding of physical maturity and the readiness to not only engage in sex but to child bear.

You have shown ignorace of galactic proportions and conflation of utter epicness - for, to say that a girl is mature at onset of puberty tells us that you have not even a rudimentary grasp of biology. See, puberty is a STAGE of development - it is not a moment in time where a person spontaneously moves from immaturity to maturity. No. Puberty is the TRANSITION from childhood to adulthood, it is a stage of growth which takes a number of years. Thus, for you to conclude that the moment a girl enters menarche marks the age of maturity is truly harrowing. Maturity occurs at the end of puberty and although it is relatively arbitrary, we know its cessation/completion, almost universally, occurs between the ages of 16-18.

An 8 year old girl who has started menses is simply not able to sufficiently child bear let alone engage in sexual intercourse. At ages 8 (also 9, 10, 11, 12 etc) - her body is developing and so if such a girl was to become pregnant the damage to her own physical development will be profound as the body will promote utilisation of nutrition and growth factors to develop the foetus - not the child. Girls of 8 are also very unlikely to have a vaginal canal mature enough to deal with a penetration and so again, physical damage to this region will occur, setting that girl up for a number of complications (not to mention immense pain at the acute/immediate level) for years to come.

Am I really having to point this out in 2014??

 

[Chev Chelios]

Response: Maturity does not occur in everyone at the same age and time. So asking whether someone of a certain age is maturity cannot be answered. Many societies, particularly those in the past and in Islamic traditions, begin to give adult responsibilities at 5 years old. So due to such an early age, they mature faster. In today's society, it's taught that a 5 year old is immature automatically, so they mature much slower. So it is very possible for a 6 or 9 year old to be mature. I was. So was everyone in my entire family. We were raised that way. Every one of my siblings had to be placed on a higher academic program than normal as a result. My elder sister started school at 2 or 3 years old, instead of the standard 5 years old. We all cooked family meals, performed chores, and many responsibilities that an adult is accustomed to doing at an early age. All studies show as well that the earlier you school and discipline a child, the more likely they become mentally mature. So while it is definitely unlikely or hard to believe to you that a 6 or 9 year old can be mature, those who have been raised differently and are not a product of the stereotypes of modern society know otherwise and are a product of such.

As for your question, there is absolutely nothing morally wrong in marrying a 10 year old girl, if such a girl is mature and does not disapprove of the marriage.

Yet again you are trying to re-write all that the Medical profession have come to know about human biology. You cannot speed up the genetic expression of menarche simply by giving a child extra chores!! My god - it is a hormonal process which is beyond the reach of the effects of teaching a child to cook!! The backward nature of your argument is shocking even me.

No. The only environmental factors known to interefere with the onset of puberty are hormonal exposures such as those which may come about via medical interventions such as medications, ingestions of oestrogenic agents, certain diseases states and possibly obesity (which alters hormonal balance).

So, the take home message here is simple - ONLY hormonal disruptions which interfere with endocrinological function can alter a persons otherwise GENETICALLY predisposed biological clock which is what will set off the expression of genes responsible for starting puberty in humans.

I hope people are reading what has been said here for what is being shown is mainstream (note - not extreme) Islamic beliefs.

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

The uncivilized elements in Muslim population take all possible steps to increase their population and eradicate non-Muslims . Very similar to viruses in our body.


Its their motto “breed..... make war to kill; ........breed ..... Make war to spread; Keep moral standards that dates back a 1500 years, never make any progress".


For them, life is meant to be lived like prophet Mohammed, in a possible living condition that dates back to his time. So they continue with child marriages, halal meats (even though we have better ways to kill now, they won’t accept it), slavery, and so on.


Islam literally has a meaning peace; but its actions speak a different story - not a speck of peace, but only war and atrocities.


It seems as far as their strategy to increase population growth is concerned, they are far outpacing our government bureaucracies. I only hope they take adequate measures to stop such activities otherwise it will be our children who will have to pay for this.

Thank you
Yes Islam follows population growth strategy
This method is from the beginning of the spread of Islam
Easy marriage and any possibility of divorce and polygamy
All this makes Islama dangerin placeswhere

 

[Al-Fatihah]

No.
Muhammad's conduct has driven conduct in many countries up until this day. In England we are asked to donate to charities who work to help young girls who are in seriously dangerous infant childbirths because of his behaviour and standards. They do not have the absolute right to refuse these marriages.

The vast majority here think that infant marriage is wicked, unjust and immoral. They also do in your country. You are banned from such activities in your country, you know.

Response: Muhammad's conduct is to treat men, women, and children kindly and with love and respect. So a country driven by his conduct is a great thing.

 

[Al-Fatihah]

Actually the links show there are risks for the child when it comes to having sex with them, the risk of pregnancy to the child-mother and child. So either you never read these links or you are stupid. Which is it? Are you a liar or stupid?

WHO/Europe | Child marriage – a threat to health

Health Consequences of Child Marriage in Africa - Volume 12, Number 11—November 2006 - Emerging Infectious Disease journal - CDC
http://www.unicef-irc.org/publications/pdf/digest7e.pdf

Not that you will read any of the links. You must defend your ideology and your idol tooth and nail. It is far more important than any honestly or even modest reading comprehension. Ideological fascism has blinded you.

Response: Actually, your own link and words show that Muhammad's actions are just, as your link refers to sex with children. Whereas Muhammad had sex with an adult, as adulthood is defined by puberty. So as usual, you refute yourself and make my point. Thanks for the assistance.

 

[Al-Fatihah]

Erm.....I have already shown that Islam's most AUTHENTIC and TRUSTED sources have Aishas age at an appalling age of 6 at the time 54 year old Muhammad deemed her to be his wife and then a truly disturbing 8 years 9 months when he deemed her ready for sex. I also put forward the incredibly plausible argument that due to the timeless nature of God, coupled to his unshakable, unchangeable morality, the God of Islam clearly sanctions child marriage by virtue of the simple fact that the God of Islam sanctioned child marriage!

What God does in 620AD he will surely do in 2013. IF your God had pointed out the context of the marriage and clearly gave teachings to future Moslems that child brides was not good practice then I can accept this. But he didn't - and so what have we seen and continue to see in the Islamic world due to your God and your prophets actions? Exactly. And this is the perfect religion??

I have also pointed out the Koran and Sahih Hadith clearly propergate the age of consent being at the age of Menarche - a worrying piece of Islamic theology which has been codified into Islamic Law - this age is something you have openly acknowledged and endorsed.

So where have I rebutted my own weak arguments pal?

Muhammad (saw) and His Marriage with Aisha (Ra) | ReligiousForums.com

Response: And I have already provide you with a link that shows from the same authentic sources themselves that Muhammad wrote a marriage contract when she was 6 and entered into the marriage contract by living with her at 9, and began sexual relations when she reached maturity and puberty and with consent. Thus the sources make my point, while your inability to refute anything stated in the link or show any harm in consensual sex in marriage with one who reaches maturity and puberty debunks your claim and shows Muhammad and Islam is just.

 

[oldbadger]

Response: Muhammad's conduct is to treat men, women, and children kindly and with love and respect. .........................

...Why? Why would Muhammad do that? They might become happy in their lives. You have stated that Earthly happiness is not to be sought after or valued..... ?
Just askin'

 

[Al-Fatihah]

Here again, we see the odious beliefs of mainstream Islam and the twisted prism through which so many followers of this faith view the world. To say there is no harm in consensual sex for girls who have been 'deemed' mature, such as a girl of 8 (which you mentioned in a previous post) is astonishing. What you are saying flies in the face of the medical profession which have been a potent force in our understanding of physical maturity and the readiness to not only engage in sex but to child bear.

You have shown ignorace of galactic proportions and conflation of utter epicness - for, to say that a girl is mature at onset of puberty tells us that you have not even a rudimentary grasp of biology. See, puberty is a STAGE of development - it is not a moment in time where a person spontaneously moves from immaturity to maturity. No. Puberty is the TRANSITION from childhood to adulthood, it is a stage of growth which takes a number of years. Thus, for you to conclude that the moment a girl enters menarche marks the age of maturity is truly harrowing. Maturity occurs at the end of puberty and although it is relatively arbitrary, we know its cessation/completion, almost universally, occurs between the ages of 16-18.

An 8 year old girl who has started menses is simply not able to sufficiently child bear let alone engage in sexual intercourse. At ages 8 (also 9, 10, 11, 12 etc) - her body is developing and so if such a girl was to become pregnant the damage to her own physical development will be profound as the body will promote utilisation of nutrition and growth factors to develop the foetus - not the child. Girls of 8 are also very unlikely to have a vaginal canal mature enough to deal with a penetration and so again, physical damage to this region will occur, setting that girl up for a number of complications (not to mention immense pain at the acute/immediate level) for years to come.

Am I really having to point this out in 2014??

Response: Did you provide a quote from any source saying that consensual sex in marriage with one who reaches maturity and puberty by any medical or psychological source on earth that says it is harmful? No. Not one. Thus debunking yourself again. Instead, the fact that you condemn consensual sex in maturity and puberty shows that your ideology condones to rather rape and molest them instead. Thereby exposing the perversion in your ideology, not Islam.

 

[oldbadger]

Response: Muhammad's conduct is to treat men, women, and children kindly and with love and respect. So a country driven by his conduct is a great thing.

There are ten pages of www sites on the internet, appealing for funds to help in the struggle to stop infant rape, infant marriage and infant torture. Here is one:-

1. Sponsor A Girl - Plan UK - plan-uk.org‎
   Adwww.plan-uk.org/Sponsor_A_Girl‎
   Help Stop Abuse & Child Marriage. Sponsor A Girl With Plan UK Today.
   Plan UK has 762 followers on Google+

Real grown up men just don't need to interfere with infants. Just remember the laws of your own country if you have any doubts about this.

 

[Al-Fatihah]

...Why? Why would Muhammad do that? They might become happy in their lives. You have stated that Earthly happiness is not to be sought after or valued..... ?
Just askin'

Response: Why would Muhammad treat men, women, and children kindly? The better question is why are you against kindness?

 

[oldbadger]

Response: Why would Muhammad treat men, women, and children kindly? The better question is why are you against kindness?

Ha ha! I didn't think you would be able to answer my question (I won a bet with my wife about it).
Now.... how did you imagine that I was against kindness?
Your presumption and prejudice race forward in leaps and bounds.
My question was, Why would Muhammed be kind to folks?

 

[Al-Fatihah]

There are ten pages of www sites on the internet, appealing for funds to help in the struggle to stop infant rape, infant marriage and infant torture. Here is one:-

1. Sponsor A Girl - Plan UK - plan-uk.org‎
   Adwww.plan-uk.org/Sponsor_A_Girl‎
   Help Stop Abuse & Child Marriage. Sponsor A Girl With Plan UK Today.
   Plan UK has 762 followers on Google+

Real grown up men just don't need to interfere with infants. Just remember the laws of your own country if you have any doubts about this.

Response: Infant rape is having sex without consent with someone who has not reached puberty. Muhammad had consensual sex in marriage after she reached maturity and puberty. So once again, your straw man makes my point and proves Muhammad was moral and just. Thanks.

 

[Al-Fatihah]

Ha ha! I didn't think you would be able to answer my question (I won a bet with my wife about it).
Now.... how did you imagine that I was against kindness?
Your presumption and prejudice race forward in leaps and bounds.
My question was, Why would Muhammed be kind to folks?

Response: A kind person does not need to question why someone is kind. Only those who are not kind need such a question answered. So while you are winning a bet with your wife, your wife and the world is also witnessing the fact that you have to question what is kindness. Your wife taking pleasure in your inability to treat her kind is not a bet worth praising. Fortunately, we have an example from Muhammad to alleviate such character and continue to bet with kindness.

 

[oldbadger]

Response: Infant rape is having sex without consent with someone who has not reached puberty. Muhammad had consensual sex in marriage after she reached maturity and puberty. So once again, your straw man makes my point and proves Muhammad was moral and just. Thanks.

You could not be more wrong.
An infant cannot give consent to sex in your country or mine.
Big big mistake.