Multifaith spaces in hospital

[Deeje]

For me personally it doesn't matter too much either as I'm comfortable praying in many places alone or with others. Most groups other than Christians haven't had a space other than a Chapel so have had to make do. The JWs never attend the interfaith council meetings. Why would you? Its all part of Satan's deception and any day soon the apocalypse as foretold in the book of Revelation will come to pass.

Can you show me where Jesus ever participated in any kind of interfaith situations at all? Did the apostles go to the Gentiles to share interfaith with them? Or were they to convert to Christianity and leave all their false religious ideas behind?

Were the Israelites ever encouraged to fraternise with those of other religious beliefs? Weren't the Jews to make make procelytes who had to become Jewish in all respects? They were not permitted to bring remnants of their former religion into Judaism.

It seems very plain to me that the God of Abraham commanded no fusing of their beliefs with false religion. The very first of the Ten Commandments was to have "no other Gods but Yahweh".

There is no way that God accepts all worship as legitimate.

 

[Dawnofhope]

In my experience chapels should be there only for the people who actually use it, or be separated into 3 or 4 spaces. When the Hindu component of the one here was removed, I was told it was because nobody used it.Why have an empty space?

We want to have a space that is going to meet the needs of our community for the next 30 or so years. Having a sense of what of who is likely to use the space is critical. Would Hindus in your city be likely to make use of a multifaith space in hospital?

 

[Dawnofhope]

Can you show me where Jesus ever participated in any kind of interfaith situations at all? Did the apostles go to the Gentiles to share interfaith with them? Or were they to convert to Christianity and leave all their false religious ideas behind?

Were the Israelites ever encouraged to fraternise with those of other religious beliefs? Weren't the Jews to make make procelytes who had to become Jewish in all respects? They were not permitted to bring remnants of their former religion into Judaism.

It seems very plain to me that the God of Abraham commanded no fusing of their beliefs with false religion. The very first of the Ten Commandments was to have "no other Gods but Yahweh".

There is no way that God accepts all worship as legitimate.

I would like to think humanity has come a long way in the last 3,500 since the ten commandments were written. When I read your posts I do wonder.

Jesus brought a new message to the world. Initially Judaism was mostly an ethnic Jewish faith though there was provision for non-Jews to convert. Jesus taught to an almost exlusively Jewish audience new Teachings from God, and the Apostles adapted that message and taught it to the gentiles. Eventually the message was taught to the world has Jesus had asked. That was probab;y achieved by the nineteenth century. I think we've come along way.

Anyone who truly knows the Bible recognises its a book of change. Applying levitical laws in the days of Christ was no longer going to work. The Mosaic dispensation fundamentally changed and was never going to be the same again. Same deal for the Christian dispensation today. A wise man once talked about the need to put new wine in new wineskins (Mark 2:21-22).

People of goodwill from all nations, races and faiths want to work together for the good of all.

 

[Jumi]

There's sometimes a need for introversion. It would be nice to have that in a hospital.

 

[Deeje]

I would like to think humanity has come a long way in the last 3,500 since the ten commandments were written. When I read your posts I do wonder.

Do you think the Ten Commandments are now obsolete?
I believe that they were written by a God who does not change. I believe that the principles contained in those commandments are as relevant today as they were 3,500 years ago.

The reason why the Bible is still relevant is because it is not a book about time or geographical location....it is a book about human nature, which does not change. Every human emotion expressed today is the same as they have always been.

When you see what is happening in the world, I don't think we have come a long way at all as far as our attitudes and behavior are concerned.

Jesus brought a new message to the world. Initially Judaism was mostly an ethnic Jewish faith though there was provision for non-Jews to convert. Jesus taught to an almost exlusively Jewish audience new Teachings from God, and the Apostles adapted that message and taught it to the gentiles. Eventually the message was taught to the world has Jesus had asked. That was probab;y achieved by the nineteenth century. I think we've come along way.

Jesus clarified and more clearly defined what the Jews already knew. There was nothing really new about what he taught except that he added a heavenly component to the Messianic Kingdom. No Jew ever thought of going to heaven and even as Jesus was ascending to heaven, his disciples still thought he was going to establish his Kingdom on earth.

At Pentecost, they learned about being anointed with holy spirit and being implanted with a very unnatural desire....to leave this earth and to go and live in another realm....in a new spiritual body.
They discerned that Israel's structure with its temple and priesthood were pictorial of a heavenly arrangement rather than an earthly one. Christianity had no earthly priesthood or temple.
But this heavenly government of rulers and priests was to have earthly subjects. (Revelation 21:2-4)

People of goodwill from all nations, races and faiths want to work together for the good of all.

I don't think we see that anywhere on earth except in small pockets. I think people have a desire for it, but they have no real way to implement it on a scale necessary to make a real difference. Political relationships continue to run hot and cold and as far as I can see, there is more uncertainty about the future now, than at any other time in history. The human impact on planet earth has reached a stage where reversing the damage may take as long as it did to accomplish it. Many experts believe that it may already be too late. Add climate change to that. Where is the good news?

Do you see people really trying to make a difference....and then giving up in disgust because the powers that be will not support them? Aid workers become demoralised because of the sheer magnitude of the problems....increasing at a rate that staggers the imagination. The refugee crisis has just added a new dimension.

All I can say is that your optimism appears to border on delusion...it's a nice delusion, but it looks like a pipe dream.

 

[Vinayaka]

We want to have a space that is going to meet the needs of our community for the next 30 or so years. Having a sense of what of who is likely to use the space is critical. Would Hindus in your city be likely to make use of a multifaith space in hospital?

They didn't here. Those places are so very Christian, and the fact that Hindus are quiet and private in their prayers made it unlikely. But maybe if there was a scheduled puja once a week, and patients knew about it they might attend. Personally, I wouldn't use it, because of the uncomfortable factor.

Here, it was dominated by 2 groups ... Christians, and indigenous. The term 'multifaith space' is better than 'multifaith chapel' in my view. I also noticed a of of bias from the hospital chaplain ... hard to find a neutral.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Do you think the Ten Commandments are now obsolete?
I believe that they were written by a God who does not change. I believe that the principles contained in those commandments are as relevant today as they were 3,500 years ago.

The reason why the Bible is still relevant is because it is not a book about time or geographical location....it is a book about human nature, which does not change. Every human emotion expressed today is the same as they have always been.

When you see what is happening in the world, I don't think we have come a long way at all as far as our attitudes and behavior are concerned.

The ten commandments are not obsolete but many of the 613 laws of the Torah are obsolete.

Positive changes I see include unprescedented levels of global cooperation, the establishment of the equality of men and women, multiculturalism, a rapid expansion of science and technology, greater life expectancy, the growth of the human rights movement, the widespread establishment of democracy, the abolition of slavery, and racial equality. We've really become a global village. Its quite exciting really.

Jesus clarified and more clearly defined what the Jews already knew. There was nothing really new about what he taught except that he added a heavenly component to the Messianic Kingdom. No Jew ever thought of going to heaven and even as Jesus was ascending to heaven, his disciples still thought he was going to establish his Kingdom on earth.

At Pentecost, they learned about being anointed with holy spirit and being implanted with a very unnatural desire....to leave this earth and to go and live in another realm....in a new spiritual body.
They discerned that Israel's structure with its temple and priesthood were pictorial of a heavenly arrangement rather than an earthly one. Christianity had no earthly priesthood or temple.
But this heavenly government of rulers and priests was to have earthly subjects. (Revelation 21:2-4)

I think the greatest accomplishment for Jesus was to reframe Jewish Teachings to enable worldwide acceptance and establishment. It only took His disciples over 1900 years to get there but what an achievement.

God's teachings are for the establishment of peace on earth. That's where we are heading. Its just a bumpy ride getting there.

I don't think we see that anywhere on earth except in small pockets. I think people have a desire for it, but they have no real way to implement it on a scale necessary to make a real difference. Political relationships continue to run hot and cold and as far as I can see, there is more uncertainty about the future now, than at any other time in history. The human impact on planet earth has reached a stage where reversing the damage may take as long as it did to accomplish it. Many experts believe that it may already be too late. Add climate change to that. Where is the good news?

Do you see people really trying to make a difference....and then giving up in disgust because the powers that be will not support them? Aid workers become demoralised because of the sheer magnitude of the problems....increasing at a rate that staggers the imagination. The refugee crisis has just added a new dimension.

I'm certainly a glass half full type of person as you see the glass half empty.

All I can say is that your optimism appears to border on delusion...it's a nice delusion, but it looks like a pipe dream.

Once we learn to extend the love Christ talked of to people of every race, nation, and religion and have a world embracing vision its easy. Its been nice to chat.

 

[Dawnofhope]

They didn't here. Those places are so very Christian, and the fact that Hindus are quiet and private in their prayers made it unlikely. But maybe if there was a scheduled puja once a week, and patients knew about it they might attend. Personally, I wouldn't use it, because of the uncomfortable factor.

Here, it was dominated by 2 groups ... Christians, and indigenous. The term 'multifaith space' is better than 'multifaith chapel' in my view. I also noticed a of of bias from the hospital chaplain ... hard to find a neutral.

I certainly get it when it comes to bias from chaplaincy services. There is a reasonable likelihood that it ends up the same way here. Most Indigenous peoples (Maori) are Christian if they have a religion at all. At some stage there will be a better way forward. We have an opportunity to achieve that. If not then a group in another city will find a way forward. Its useful to hear your experience though.

 

[ChristineM]

Creative spelling and low level dyslexia can be a barrier to succeeding at University level. It doesn't have to be.

It isn't a barrier, just an obstacle to overcome

 

[ChristineM]

Plans are being put forward for a hospital rebuild in my city. It will provide high level health care for a population of more than 200,000. A question has arisen as to the most appropriate space for worship and meditation in a hospital for a developed nation that is multicultural and values inclusiveness. Our current hospital has a chapel. If another faith group wanted to use it, I presume it wouldn't be much of a problem. I often used go there during lunch breaks during the Baha'i month of fasting to pray and meditate. As I'm from a Christian background I'm very comfortable with Christian spaces and I have visited many temples and devotional spaces of other faith communities too. Not everyone feels that way of course, and a Jewish achitect I recently spoke to refuses to eat food that has been prepared in a church let alone set foot in one.

Circumstances have conspired against me, and I now find myself at the forefront of representing my cities interfaith council to consult with the hospital rebuild team. We have a seperate Abrahamic society who is now wanting to be involved. My Jewish architect friend has attractive ideas about having a combined outdoor and indoor space at the top of the hospital building and consulting with representatives of local indigenous peoples. My natural inclination is to have space everyone can make use of. Some Faith communities will naturally want their own space. There will be a very real issue of how much space will be available and we have already heard of an initial proposal is to reduce the current 120 m2 chapel down to 60 m2 which includes a seperate room for other spaces. Our interfaith council that includes all the major faiths unanimously disagrees with that idea. As well as reduced space there has been no consultation with the community.

I've never needed to be admitted to a hospital overnight but spent my initial ten years as a doctor working in hospitals. I've visited many sick friends, relatives as well as patients over the years. A spiritual dimension to health and healing is very important to some and not at all to others.

For the purposes of this thread I would appreciate hearing your thoughts and experiences about a spiritual dimension to healing in your life. Have you ever made use of a chapel or a space in a hospital? Do you have any thoughts about what such a space looks like for the hospital servicing your community? What should it look like given the faith groups in your community?

Thank you in advance for your questions and comments.

Hospitals are a place of healing, not religion although many religious people will find comfort in such a facility i believe it should not detract from the primary function.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

It’s not on iwi land but commercially owned land near the centre of town. We’ve had a huge factory shut down recently so that’s presented a perfect opportunity as a prime location.

60 metres is about 197 feet.

It’s always important to consult with iwi as Maori make up about 15% of our country’s population. Their views will carry much more weight than an interfaith council.

Is there specifics that may inappropriate influence how iwi would make their decisions?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Can you show me where Jesus ever participated in any kind of interfaith situations at all? Did the apostles go to the Gentiles to share interfaith with them? Or were they to convert to Christianity and leave all their false religious ideas behind?

Were the Israelites ever encouraged to fraternise with those of other religious beliefs? Weren't the Jews to make make procelytes who had to become Jewish in all respects? They were not permitted to bring remnants of their former religion into Judaism.

It seems very plain to me that the God of Abraham commanded no fusing of their beliefs with false religion. The very first of the Ten Commandments was to have "no other Gods but Yahweh".

There is no way that God accepts all worship as legitimate.

Deeje, interfaith meaning one place where individual groups of people come to worship. They aren't worshiping together but sharing the same literal space. In other words, instead of having twenty buildings per religion, they have one building section.

Here, we have one chapel but christian services are held seperate not during when muslims pray. Vis versa. Usually religious individuals want their own space anyhow. Not interfaith with people just so individual groups will have a space to pray without making fifty seperating building section per group.

It has to do with the building accommodating multiple faiths not interfaith worship. Jesus prayed at a jewish (edit) temple alone but then the Jews he disagreed with prayed in the same temple but never together. It's just the location and saving space, nothing more.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Plans are being put forward for a hospital rebuild in my city. It will provide high level health care for a population of more than 200,000. A question has arisen as to the most appropriate space for worship and meditation in a hospital for a developed nation that is multicultural and values inclusiveness. Our current hospital has a chapel. If another faith group wanted to use it, I presume it wouldn't be much of a problem. I often used go there during lunch breaks during the Baha'i month of fasting to pray and meditate. As I'm from a Christian background I'm very comfortable with Christian spaces and I have visited many temples and devotional spaces of other faith communities too. Not everyone feels that way of course, and a Jewish achitect I recently spoke to refuses to eat food that has been prepared in a church let alone set foot in one.

Circumstances have conspired against me, and I now find myself at the forefront of representing my cities interfaith council to consult with the hospital rebuild team. We have a seperate Abrahamic society who is now wanting to be involved. My Jewish architect friend has attractive ideas about having a combined outdoor and indoor space at the top of the hospital building and consulting with representatives of local indigenous peoples. My natural inclination is to have space everyone can make use of. Some Faith communities will naturally want their own space. There will be a very real issue of how much space will be available and we have already heard of an initial proposal is to reduce the current 120 m2 chapel down to 60 m2 which includes a seperate room for other spaces. Our interfaith council that includes all the major faiths unanimously disagrees with that idea. As well as reduced space there has been no consultation with the community.

I've never needed to be admitted to a hospital overnight but spent my initial ten years as a doctor working in hospitals. I've visited many sick friends, relatives as well as patients over the years. A spiritual dimension to health and healing is very important to some and not at all to others.

For the purposes of this thread I would appreciate hearing your thoughts and experiences about a spiritual dimension to healing in your life. Have you ever made use of a chapel or a space in a hospital? Do you have any thoughts about what such a space looks like for the hospital servicing your community? What should it look like given the faith groups in your community?

Thank you in advance for your questions and comments.

I see no "spiritual dimension to healing" at all.

That being said, I think it's important to recognize that hospital patients and their families generally aren't there by choice, and it's important to make them as comfortable as possible and not impose on them any more than necessary. This can mean ensuring they can be visited by their families... or internet internet access or TV... or privacy... or religious worship.

The hospital can be a stressful place, and while it's certainly not necessary to use religion to cope, religion IS an important coping mechanism for many people, so I think people's religious beliefs and practices should be accommodated as much as possible... especially if not accommodating them will cause religious patients to avoid or delay treatment.

It's still important, though, not to make the mistake of confusing religious accommodation WITH treatment.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Its a very pragmatic approach.

I wonder how the Christians would feel about having their cherished chapel replaced by a very zen looking round room? In fact I wonder how all faiths would feel about having practically nothing that represents them at all! But it quite possibly may be the only practical way of having a shared space.

It's worthwhile to recognize the difference between preferences or expectations and actual religious tenets or matters of conscience.

If there's a Christian denomination that takes a stance against praying in round rooms, I haven't heard of it.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

This seems to be a strange problem from the JW perspective. We have no need for such a space, as our communication with our God does not require one. We don't see our Kingdom Hall as anything but a building in which to meet for Christian worship and fellowship. It wouldn't matter to us if it was a rented hall or any other space, we would make it an appropriate place to worship Jehovah just by our presence there and Jesus' assurance that, 'where two or three are gathered in his name that he will be there too'. The "church" is the people, not the building.

If we are hospitalized and we need a quiet place to pray, we would probably take solace in an outside space rather than a room used for interfaith purposes. Our relationship with God takes place in our hearts, not in a room....so you would never need to even consider us in this dilemma. Guess its hard to please all the people all the time...its hard enough to please some of the people, some of the time...

If the room doesn't matter, why would you avoid it and have your service outside?

In most respects, the interfaith room would be like a small Kingdom Hall: a quiet room with chairs, laid out in a way that's conducive to a religious service.

 

[Jainarayan]

But maybe if there was a scheduled puja once a week

I like that idea, but I'm not sure how that would play out, given that there are ... what's the word I'm looking for... considerations, regulations? for making a space sacred for puja, e.g. a murti. But I don't know, since my dining room is hardly a sacred space. The space could be used for meditation, but then again, so could a phone booth.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I thought it was thoughtful. But you are right that someone could be very vulnerable.

That's one aspect of chaplaincy that I taje issue with: that chaplains can impose themselves on people who aren't in a position to refuse. Even if they're perfectly nice, the fact that someone in their capacity as a religious representative can act as a gatekeepet between patients and things they want can at least create the perception of a conflict of interest or undue influence.

The other aspect that I find troubling is the use of chaplains as a substitute for legitimate counsellors. Now... some chaplains are qualified counsellors, but many aren't... and even for the ones that have some sort of conselling qualification, the fact that they're there as a representative of religion means that there can be serious ethical issues when the chaplain takes on the role of counsellor.

IMO, if the hospital - not the chaplain themselves as some sort of door-to-door salesperson, but the hospital itself - informs the patient of the religious accommodations available and is responsive to patient requests, then that's all that's needed.

 

[Jainarayan]

If we are hospitalized and we need a quiet place to pray, we would probably take solace in an outside space rather than a room used for interfaith purposes. Our relationship with God takes place in our hearts, not in a room

This is also my view as a Hindu, but like anything else, for each of the 1 billion Hindus, there are 1.5 billion opinions, answers, practices. I would rather sit in a park, at the beach, a garden, and lose myself in meditative thought. I'm not one to have a structured meditation. Actually, meditation means different things to different people.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

@adroa

This is also my view as a Hindu, but like anything else, for each of the 1 billion Hindus, there are 1.5 billion opinions, answers, practices. I would rather sit in a park, at the beach, a garden, and lose myself in meditative thought. I'm not one to have a structured meditation. Actually, meditation means different things to different people.

What if patients and family can't do that, though? Like my mother who isn't Christian still stayed in the hospital during and after my surgery. So she went downstairs to the jesus christ. She could have gone outside but the doctors page her to let her know what's going on throughout the surgery so she needed to be nearby.

 

[Jainarayan]

That's one aspect of chaplaincy that I taje issue with: that chaplains can impose themselves on people who aren't in a position to refuse. Even if they're perfectly nice, the fact that someone in their capacity as a religious representative can act as a gatekeepet between patients and things they want can at least create the perception of a conflict of interest or undue influence.

The other aspect that I find troubling is the use of chaplains as a substitute for legitimate counsellors. Now... some chaplains are qualified counsellors, but many aren't... and even for the ones that have some sort of conselling qualification, the fact that they're there as a representative of religion means that there can be serious ethical issues when the chaplain takes on the role of counsellor.

IMO, if the hospital - not the chaplain themselves as some sort of door-to-door salesperson, but the hospital itself - informs the patient of the religious accommodations available and is responsive to patient requests, then that's all that's needed.

That is all so on-point it's criminal.

It may have been the drugs, being that I was stoned out of my mind, but I was ready for some resistance when I said no thank you. He actually did have a bit of hesitation on his face before leaving. Giving the benefit of the doubt that could have been a "you're stoned, are you sure?". The counselling thing is iffy too, because eastern religions have a largely different view of death, dying, and what comes after.