Multiple casualties reported in San Jose shooting

[Shadow Wolf]

I figured Wikipedia's definitions are universally accepted. I guessed wrongly.

Giving a clinical definition that brings nothing of substance to the argument doesn't help.

 

[McBell]

Fine then, I will sell my 9mm semi auto S&W pistol to Chicago PD in exchange for a hundred dollar prepaid Visa card. I have not fired that weapon for over 10 years, I don't need to have a semi-auto firearm anyways, unless I were wanting to go on some sort of shooting rampage. Me being armed with a small revolver would just as well defend myself against a would-be armed attacker than how well me being armed with a semi auto firearm could defend myself against a would-be armed attacker.

That is fine.
You do you.

Though I fail to see how your feeling you do not need said 9mm semi-automatic hand gun reflects on my owning a 9mm semi-automatic hand gun.
Or any of the other semi-automatic fire arms I own for that matter.

 

[Suave]

Giving a clinical definition that brings nothing of substance to the argument doesn't help.

I consider Wikipedia's definition of semi-automatic firearms to be meaningful, precise and widely understandable. For public safety's sake, I would like private ownership of semi-automatic firearms to be effectively banned in the same way private ownership of fully automatic firearms have been effectively banned since the enactment of the National Firearms Act of 1934. I have brought forth this substantive solution in order to prevent many more mass shootings. What substantive solution do you offer in order to prevent most mass shootings?

 

[Suave]

That is fine.
You do you.

Though I fail to see how your feeling you do not need said 9mm semi-automatic hand gun reflects on my owning a 9mm semi-automatic hand gun.
Or any of the other semi-automatic fire arms I own for that matter.

Perhaps we can agree there are types of firearms other than semi auto weapons that can be effectively used for self defense or hunting. Whereas, our semi automatic firearms might possibly slip into the evil hands of a mass shooter. I am supposing private ownership of semi automatic weapons is unnecessary for legit gun uses like self defense or hunting as non semiautomatic firearms will suffice for legit gun use purposes, whereas semi automatic firearms pose too much the danger of perpetrating gun massacres.

 

[McBell]

Perhaps we can agree there are types of firearms other than semi auto weapons that can be effectively used for self defense or hunting.

Fully automatic come to mind.
But they are illegal for most people.

Then there are shotguns.
Muskets even, I mean that was all they had for like several hundred years.

Seems to me that pretty much any firearm will work for self defense.

Not so much for hunting.

Whereas, our semi automatic firearms might possibly slip into the evil hands of a mass shooter.

Interesting.
What makes non semi-automatics so special they won't possibly slip into the evil hands of a mass shooter?
Especially after you get all semi-automatic firearms banned?

I am supposing private ownership of semi automatic weapons is unnecessary for legit gun uses like self defense or hunting as non semiautomatic firearms will suffice for legit gun use purposes, whereas semi automatic firearms pose too much the danger of perpetrating gun massacres.

I am supposing you have a rather unique definition of legit...

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I consider Wikipedia's definition of semi-automatic firearms to be meaningful, precise and widely understandable. For public safety's sake, I would like private ownership of semi-automatic firearms to be effectively banned in the same way private ownership of fully automatic firearms have been effectively banned since the enactment of the National Firearms Act of 1934. I have brought forth this substantive solution in order to prevent many more mass shootings. What substantive solution do you offer in order to prevent most mass shootings?

All you've done is shown reluctance to learn about guns, and how going so broad as "semi auto" achieves nothing. Not all semi autos are created equal, nor made for the same purposes. Your desire for a blanket ban on semi autos takes away common farmer tools and leaves us still with a lot of gun violence and death.

 

[exchemist]

I consider Wikipedia's definition of semi-automatic firearms to be meaningful, precise and widely understandable. For public safety's sake, I would like private ownership of semi-automatic firearms to be effectively banned in the same way private ownership of fully automatic firearms have been effectively banned since the enactment of the National Firearms Act of 1934. I have brought forth this substantive solution in order to prevent many more mass shootings. What substantive solution do you offer in order to prevent most mass shootings?

That would seem to be in line with UK law, for instance, which prohibits not only things like pump acton shotguns but any kind of cartridge ammunition handgun. Basically all you can have is single shot firearms for sport and farming use.

I once had a girlfriend that used to shoot with a 22 rifle at a club. She had to keep it disassembled, in 2 separate boxes, screwed to rafters in the loft and the police had the right to come and inspect it to check it was correctly stored. So not much chance she would shoot me in a fit of anger - or that was the idea.

 

[Subduction Zone]

All you've done is shown reluctance to learn about guns, and how going so broad as "semi auto" achieves nothing. Not all semi autos are created equal, nor made for the same purposes. Your desire for a blanket ban on semi autos takes away common farmer tools and leaves us still with a lot of gun violence and death.

When does a farmer need a semi automatic gun? Have you ever gone hunting? If you hear a bunch of rapid shots from a party of hunters it is very rare that they got anything.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Aside from the fact there is absolutely no reason for the ordinary person to have military style weapons, these find their way into the hands of the mentally unstable, physiologically imbalanced motivated by seeking revenge because they couldn't 'cut it'. We can't even get a law passed to at least take 'their' guns away.

Military style is just that. A style.

Like Ford or Chevy styles.


It's not a military weapon. It's a civilian weapon.


There's nothing special about these firearms.

I think the issue revolves around semi automatic vs breech or bolt / lever action firearms.

 

[RestlessSoul]

That is fine.
You do you.

Though I fail to see how your feeling you do not need said 9mm semi-automatic hand gun reflects on my owning a 9mm semi-automatic hand gun.
Or any of the other semi-automatic fire arms I own for that matter.

The fact you live in a country where lots of people own 9mm semi automatic fire arms, means you are more likely to get shot with one than if you lived in, oh I don’t know, pretty much any other country in the developed world.

That’s inarguable, surely? But hey, it’s not my country. You guys will never give up your guns, it seems; and these mass shootings will never stop happening. This stuff hardly ever happens anywhere else btw. Only in America...

 

[Shadow Wolf]

When does a farmer need a semi automatic gun? Have you ever gone hunting? If you hear a bunch of rapid shots from a party of hunters it is very rare that they got anything.

I already mentioned a gun that is both semi auto and something farmers would use, small game hunters would use, and target shooters would use. It's not something we see used in shootings. Being being semi auto it's not comparable to something like an AR15. That's a civilian counterpart to a military gun, and is designed for killing larger targets.

 

[McBell]

The fact you live in a country where lots of people own 9mm semi automatic fire arms, means you are more likely to get shot with one than if you lived in, oh I don’t know, pretty much any other country in the developed world.

That’s inarguable, surely? But hey, it’s not my country. You guys will never give up your guns, it seems; and these mass shootings will never stop happening. This stuff hardly ever happens anywhere else btw. Only in America...

I am not about to "argue" against an unsourced opinion presented in the middle of a rant.

 

[RestlessSoul]

I am not about to "argue" against an unsourced opinion presented in the middle of a rant.

When the ‘unsourced opinion’ is so blindingly obvious, then no indeed, you have no argument.

Every time one of these massacres occurs, the rest of the world looks on in horror and wonders why Americans can’t see what everybody else sees so plainly. If that sounds like a rant to you, so be it.

 

[esmith]

This being why I would like private ownership of all semi auto firearms banned. Per Wikipedia, Semi-automatic refers to a firearm which uses the force of recoil or gas to eject the empty case and load a fresh cartridge into the firing chamber for the next shot .

Close, but close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and 1000 lb bombs
Semi-Auto firearm - A firearm that is self-loading and only fires one round with one pull of the trigger
Fully-Automatic firearm - A firearm that is self-loading and can fire multtiple rounds with one pull of the trigger

 

[McBell]

Fully-Automatic firearm - A firearm that is self-loading and can fire multtiple rounds with one pull of the trigger

Close, but close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and 1000 lb bombs
Fully automatic firearms fire rounds until the trigger is released or there are no more rounds to fire.
Burst firearms fire a specific number of rounds, most typically three, with one pull of the trigger

 

[Twilight Hue]

The fact you live in a country where lots of people own 9mm semi automatic fire arms, means you are more likely to get shot with one than if you lived in, oh I don’t know, pretty much any other country in the developed world.

That’s inarguable, surely? But hey, it’s not my country. You guys will never give up your guns, it seems; and these mass shootings will never stop happening. This stuff hardly ever happens anywhere else btw. Only in America...

Does it?

Is there a difference between mass shootings and mass killing?

 

[McBell]

When the ‘unsourced opinion’ is so blindingly obvious, then no indeed, you have no argument.

Every time one of these massacres occurs, the rest of the world looks on in horror and wonders why Americans can’t see what everybody else sees so plainly. If that sounds like a rant to you, so be it.

"So blindingly obvious" is not a source.
In fact, it is an excuse to not have a source.
That you use it to justify your rant is more comical than convincing.

 

[RestlessSoul]

"So blindingly obvious" is not a source.
In fact, it is an excuse to not have a source.
That you use it to justify your rant is more comical than convincing.

There are none so blind as those who will not see, my friend.

 

[RestlessSoul]

Does it?

Is there a difference between mass shootings and mass killing?

Mass shootings in the US are what, a monthly occurrence? Seems like it from here in Europe.

Show me where these mass killings are taking place, on anything like that scale. Outside of a war zone, I can’t think of anywhere.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Stigmatizing the mentally ill as dangerous is not appreciated.
Typically people who shoot, and sometimes kill, another human are just as logical amd stable as the ordinary human. It's that being human part that is problematic. From accidents, mistakes, fear, emotional outbursts, when we look at gun related deaths as a whole the biggest part of it is ordinary, regular people. Yes, some specific mental illnesses may make someone more prone to outbursts of violence, but painting the mentally ill as a primary perpetrators of gun violence is utter nonsense, a myth painted outside of reality, and an unfortunate belief that is both detrimental for those with mental illness and the issue of gun violence.

Many mass shooters are/were either severely mentally ill (many were extremely psychotic, depressed or some mixture of both) or have severe personality disorders (narcissism to full-blown psychopathy).

The Columbine killers are an example of this. Harris was a full-blown psychopath full of charisma and charm who lied to everyone while producing some of the most narcissistic, hateful screeds you can imagine in his private journals where he gloats about lying to everyone and believing he has the right to do what he wants to anyone, including kill most of the human race. Klebold was a suicidal depressive who planned to kill himself, anyway. He appeared to be a "sensitive sort" who fell apart over time. (All the weapons used in that attack were illegally aquired and/or modified, too. Not to mention the homemade bombs and other explosives that they intended to kill hundreds with.)

Peter Langman is an expert on school shootings, but his work goes beyond just them. His psychological profiles of them (he's a psychologist) are very illuminating:
School Shooters .info | Resources on school shootings, perpetrators, and prevention

But, no - being a murderer doesn't mean that you are necessarily mentally ill or that mentally ill people are a disproportionate danger to others.

Another factor to consider, is that many of these shootings are actually a form of grandiose suicides. They wish to vent their rage at the world. "I'm going to die and take as many with me as I can!" is that mentality. Multiple of these shooters were failed by society and fell through the cracks as their mental state demonstrably deteriorated over a number of years (such as Lanza, Cho, Holmes and others). Others had really awful life histories full of severe trauma, such as teenage Jeff Weise, and they get sucked into a gradually intensifying abyss of despair, anger and hatred. Those types could've and should've been helped as there were many warning signs that things were going very wrong with them.

(This is also very much a male thing. Female mass shooters are almost unheard of. It tends to require a certain fascination with violence and destruction that females aren't generally known to have.)

So mental health does need to be part of the discussion, but in a more nuanced and informative way, not in a "crazies with guns" way. This is really a symptom of social breakdown. Something is wrong with this society that it is producing such violent, nihilistic individuals, and in such numbers. (There's many who feel the same way but either never commit the act or are caught before they can.)