Multiple sigils in Chaos Magick? How?

[Unveiled Artist]

Okay. This will seem convoluted.

Chaotes do exactly the same things but don't have to choke on a dogma to do so. They both work exactly the same way... The Chaote just knows the symbolic functions are arbitrary and irrelevant.

Inspontaneous magic? No rules just do the same goals as a non-chaote would do without the stucture or traditions behind it?

Most of Western magical traditions are inundated by a hot mess of symbolism -- they can't decide if they're animist, spiritualist, pagan, or monotheist. They focus countless hours of time memorizing useless correspondences and attempting to reach some fashionable magical servitor they call the, "The Holy Guardian Angel"...

Interesting insight. It is true; and, I dont see the negativity in that way of practice. Id say each person has their own way of getting to the same goal. No one better than the other.

Im used to new age magic defined by symbolism. Without symbolism, after taking out the tradions and dogma, how does a chaotic define their magical practices?

For example, a lot of cultures do not use symbolism. They actually know that X is X even thouh it looks like Y. Is that the same in Chaos "without" the customs involved? Raw essense?

Neopagans and new-agey people despise Chaotes as a rule. Not good sources of info on Chaos magic in my opinion.

Good point. No offense to both. Are you a choate?

Chaotes take everything these guys do and pulls all of the costumes and dogma off of it and reduce it to raw essence, and then they work with the process directly realizing the model used is just a tool.

They are aware that what they are using is not "magical" but a tool to bring the same results of a neopagan's magic?

For example, if a chaote used a athame, he'd know its a knife and nothing more and use it for its purpose without symbolism. While a neopagan Wiccan would use symbolism and visializing (if not direct belief) that the athame has the power to, say, concecrate a circle? Chaotic magic=naturalist magic?

It's a way of making mundane accomplishments seem magical, causing change in accordance with will. Like I said it's a take on Crowleyan magick, not actual magic. Pretty much everyone uses it.

Sugar coding basic actions that "look" magical but arent. Say, using salt for purification, calling it magical, but in real life, thats what salt does, purify and perserve?

Chaos is the lesser kind, focused on mundane achievements.

Hm. Have to think about this more.

 

[Aset's Flames]

Chaos magic is an attitude, a philosophy that promotes experimentation, play, and creativity while discarding dogmatic rules. Chaos magic points out that the techniques more than the symbols are what matter and that our belief in a system is actually what makes it work.

Would yall define this as chaos magic or does each have their own definition?

It's close enough to be a good working defination.

 

[Aset's Flames]

Just a warning advanced Choas Magick can be very dangerous to the psyches of young minds.

So unawakened should proabably steer clear.

But the basics do make a good starting point.

 

[Quintessence]

Neopagans and new-agey people despise Chaotes as a rule. Not good sources of info on Chaos magic in my opinion.... Basically, Chaotes take everything these guys do and pulls all of the costumes and dogma off of it and reduce it to raw essence, and then they work with the process directly realizing the model used is just a tool. It is basically irreligious, but it can be incorporated in religious practices. Generally, Chaotes regard beliefs as a convenience or a means to an end...So they use whatever model suits the workings they do. These "other guys" are mired in the minutiae of their traditions to the point were they often lose touch with the important things, like, you know... What the working processes are.... etc...

...

That's a very... interesting portrait you're painting there. From the above, I would guess your exposure to Neopaganism and the New Age movement (which aren't the same) has been... rather limited and/or grossly misinformed. Inaccurate portrayals of Neopagans and New Agers aside, you're correct that chaos magic is generally considered irreligious, along with pretty much everything else within Western magical traditions. Then again, there's also this odd tendency for Western thinking to divorce magic and religion in a way that is... well, that's probably a topic for a different thread. It gets complicated, and ultimately, the labels are mere maps of territory anyway.

 

[1137]

...

That's a very... interesting portrait you're painting there. From the above, I would guess your exposure to Neopaganism and the New Age movement (which aren't the same) has been... rather limited and/or grossly misinformed. Inaccurate portrayals of Neopagans and New Agers aside, you're correct that chaos magic is generally considered irreligious, along with pretty much everything else within Western magical traditions. Then again, there's also this odd tendency for Western thinking to divorce magic and religion in a way that is... well, that's probably a topic for a different thread. It gets complicated, and ultimately, the labels are mere maps of territory anyway.

You should make that thread.

 

[Mindmaster]

Yea, I was just informing people that there is some hate going the Chaos way... You basically need to read from Chaos sources to know chaos or you will get a bunch of haters -- that was all I was getting at. I have no hate towards any pagans or new age-y types... In fact, it is quite the opposite. I find great value in a myriad of traditions even if I don't ascribe to them.

Well, basically Chaos is a meta-paradigm and pisses off everyone by its very nature that is involved in religious magic or ceremonial. 1137, I have done other types of magic as well. I just think what works works. Often other systems are embroiled with what I would feel is an unnecessarily encumbered dogma. I guess the difference isn't in the use of the dogma, but rather that the Chaos magician polarizes toward magic orientation and the religious aspect is merely a tool; religious practitioners orient to a belief/dogma first and magic second orientation. In the latter case let's face it the faith/belief/tradition is more important than the magic. I don't really agree that western occultism is irreligious as much as it is syncretic -- it is evident for example if you read Golden Dawn or Crowley related material (and even the older stuff) they just weren't sure which way to go... so they shifted from animist, spiritual, pagan, or monotheistic views on a whim. You see it all over their material... It's basically hybridized spirituality -- soft pantheistic almost. Basically, their system fundamentally ties to spiritual and god concepts... It couldn't work without them... Thelema just takes this hodge-podge further. I've read most of that material and I still shake my head at the needless complexity.

In many ways Chaos magic also lines up with the left hand path better than others as well -- and probably I could see this as another problem for those viewing us. We don't need no stinkin' gods or Great Work... It's the magic of the here and now... This possibly makes others consider it inferior, but realistically by what criteria? Lofty spiritual aims are subjective and aesthetic concerns... I've always felt that if you couldn't put your magic to work what exactly is the point?

 

[1137]

Chaos magick can kind of be seen as making tools out of your magic. What is the actually central use of a tool such as belief or mythology. Where a magician forms a set use of systems and symbols on order to work for them, chaos magick gets lost in a world of using what it wants when it feels like. This is a very good and important lesson to learn for any occult practitioners, but it doesn't really achieve anything long term. You see, we should definitely use chaos magick in order to experiment with different myths, systems, and so on, as it is a nearly scientific way to form a system of magic that works specifically for you. The problem is that chaos magick ends there, as one adopts an order. You can reject this and keep using chaos magick, but it will only achieve lesser goals. To me there is more to than magic than the mundane accomplishments. Sure you can use it to get your way, manipulate people, and minor stuff like that, and to many (if not most people) this is all they want from magic (or, in this case, magick). However, the commitment to one's path, the study of it both myth and historical, the living of that path... these can lead the true magician to beautiful understandings and revelations. True magic, as in greater magic, is the experience of, interaction with, understanding of, and using of that which is "spiritual".

 

[Steven Kowalski]

I don't believe anyone would want to or should do chaotic magic. If a person or group was given all power to do anything they wanted to do, wouldn't rules naturally develop. You could delete yourself. There have to be rules. No matter how dogmatic you may think they are. Should we throw the earth off it's course around the sun? **** no. There are always rules, even if they are unspoken. You can't just do whatever you want without repercussions whether or not you believe they should do it. There are laws, and there is a good thing there are. 'Chaotic magic' exists in a set of rules. If Satan were unbound, he could destroy the whole universe. Do you think that he or any of his followers or the followers of man, the system, the members of society, God, the angels, the saints, Jesus, Mohammed, Buddha, or anyone (in their right mind) would let this happen? No. You go play your game if you want, but it does have rules. Rules aren't a bad thing. And if you are a Satanist, you could undermine a wrong rule. Just remember... just because you don't want gravity there at that one time doesn't mean the whole world has to float. Floating is dangerous. Don't change C.. Just use the computer. .............. If you change C, it won't work. Trust me... It just doesn't work.


.

 

[Mindmaster]

I don't believe anyone would want to or should do chaotic magic. If a person or group was given all power to do anything they wanted to do, wouldn't rules naturally develop. You could delete yourself. There have to be rules. No matter how dogmatic you may think they are. Should we throw the earth off it's course around the sun? **** no. There are always rules, even if they are unspoken. You can't just do whatever you want without repercussions whether or not you believe they should do it. There are laws, and there is a good thing there are. 'Chaotic magic' exists in a set of rules. If Satan were unbound, he could destroy the whole universe. Do you think that he or any of his followers or the followers of man, the system, the members of society, God, the angels, the saints, Jesus, Mohammed, Buddha, or anyone (in their right mind) would let this happen? No. You go play your game if you want, but it does have rules. Rules aren't a bad thing. And if you are a Satanist, you could undermine a wrong rule. Just remember... just because you don't want gravity there at that one time doesn't mean the whole world has to float. Floating is dangerous. Don't change C.. Just use the computer. .............. If you change C, it won't work. Trust me... It just doesn't work.


.

I don't believe in any of these imaginary beings, or their sin taxes. You don't get to make the rules if you are a slave to them, either. Some people are happy following along with a myriad of imaginary friends that the establishments have deemed safe for worship, and some people have their own ideas.

 

[DanielR]

Okay, I have to say something, my magick has worked

I don't know what to think anymore.

 

[1137]

Okay, I have to say something, my magick has worked

I don't know what to think anymore.

Were you not expecting it to?

 

[DanielR]

while I was doing it, it did expect it, but afterwards I kind of put it aside and didn't think much about it, and then bam it happened

 

[DanielR]

I was trying to get back to Advaita first, then I started reading a lot about Aleister Crowley (inspired by David Bowie's Blackstar video) and I kind of thought that Advaita and Qabala or Thelema maybe even the LHP ARE very similar.

I'm still very confused though .