-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Murugan worshippers here?
- Thread starter Shrew
- Start date
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
Murugan sure is a Tamil God and I believe Valli was always there. Devasena must have been added later, but I will date it to 1,000 BC (with the coming of Aryans). Not much is as young as 1,300 AD in Hinduism.
Since some people,including our honorable resident atheist,have no faith in what the living tradition says,can I date it to Cretaceous Period(dinosaurs became extinct then?)?Wow, then its at least 65.5 million years old.The older the better? Otherwise we can't believe or it must a be a later addition? 
I think the further they are apart in the differences, at least the external differences, the more you notice. I've certainly seen it as common in practice, mainly in the selection of a temple devotees go to.
Then it must be pure!
You really know what a temple is when there is only one deity in it.
Quite honestly I wish there were more of those around here. There are a few, but a distance away. Our temple is beautiful, and is indeed full of energy, but it takes forever to make the rounds visiting every shrine to multiple forms of the same deity to do namaskar. Notice I said namaskar, not praying. It doesn't make sense to me to stop at the Kannika Parameshwari shrine, the Ambika and the Durga shrines to say the same things. Or that there is in addition to the Sri Guruvayurappan (presiding deity) sanctum, we have Sri Venkateshwara, Sri Satyanarayana Swami, and Srinivasa. Unless I miss my guess, these are all regional forms of Vishnu himself. Well, I suppose something for everyone.
These temples enshrine multiple deities, but only a few. Here is one called Ved Mandir in Milltown NJ. http://www.vedmandir.org/ved/darshan/ Another one, Durga Mandir in Princeton NJ. http://durgamandirnj.org/photo-gallery/
Yes, there is a certain focus you just can't get at a multiplex style. I have heard of restaurants that just have one meal on the menu each day. How simple is that to order? And they can put a lot of effort into making that one meal really excellent. I'd definitely go to a restaurant like that.
There's a Durga temple in Vancouver that just has Durga. (If I remember right) It's nice there. You know who you're worshipping. I remember one in Mauritius that had only Murugan. No side shrines other than a small shrine to the founder. But if not one, then at least one central moolasthanam, one larger deity thats the main one in that temple.
There's a Durga temple in Vancouver that just has Durga. (If I remember right) It's nice there. You know who you're worshipping. I remember one in Mauritius that had only Murugan. No side shrines other than a small shrine to the founder. But if not one, then at least one central moolasthanam, one larger deity thats the main one in that temple.
Of course there is a work-around. The temple has a calendar of of pujas and abhishekams. If I know that a particular day is dedicated to a god or goddess, I might go to that puja, though make the rounds to greet all the deities. Or go on any day, greet all the deities, and spend some time at one particular deity's sanctum. There is still a distraction factor though. Last night, for example there was one lady who literally ran from one sanctum to another to get the "goodies" after the puja. It can be like trick-or-treat. It was almost comical. Only very occasionally do you find a person who pulls up to a particular sanctum to meditate or pray only there.
SV ... In Pittsburgh there is a road sign or two giving directions to the SV temple, SV meaning Sri Venkateswara. I'm guessing the sign guys couldn't spell Venkateshwara. In other places I've heard SV as a shortened version of Shiva-Vishnu for temples.
Someone asked about Murugan’s (Kartikeya, Skanda, Subramaniya, et all) peacock or mount (we call the mount vahana or what “carries” the God). Just wanted to mention a bit of “trivia”, His mount is not just peacock, but rooster. He also has a chariot at times as Kartikeya. And often Ganas (as in the troops of Shiva, whose “general” is also Ganesha known as Ganapati) come along when fighting “the dark side” as Lord manifests the Military spirit.
It is said, in a battle against a great Asura named Surapadma, upon the “conversion” of this Asura to Saivism, the Lord and Son of Shiva forgave him but transformed him into a peacock as well as a “Victory Flag” (yes, a FLAG!) with the rooster symbol on it.
But the rooster in itself is also sometime seen as a mount. Or seen as also Surapadma who was “cut in half”, but then one became a peacock and the other a rooster.
I can tell you the peacock as a symbol for a Royal of Military Demenour goes way, way back. You can include the “peacock” in this symbolism. Now it is common to think of Murugan as having a footprint in South India, as I mentioned. But there was a great empire, the Yaudheyas, who existed for a long time, mentioned in the Mahabharata, and in modern historical writings (modern in terms of Mahabharata which is much older) from about 500 BC and was at their “height” of grandeur around 200 BC (though sometimes great nations and tribes rise, then fall, then rise again) – and their historical lands were in North India and not the South. They reigned North-East of Mathura, and most of the Punjab.
Now look at their coins!
This is most certainly Muruga holding the Vel with either rooster or peacock! And in North India, not the South:
And look again! Six headed! (Kartikeya!):
So we see in NORTH INDIA in the “hundreds” BC coins of the Yaudheyas of Kartikeya, but ALSO MURUGAN both in the same venue, and obviously Lord Skanda was the primary deity.
Now some say the Name of Skanda is related to Sikander which Alexander the Great adopted as one of his names - "Iskandar" (Skander of Sikander or Iskandar) as he was very much interested in Kartikeya of the North-East region of India (Alexander arrived also into North East India, around 325 BC - so again affirming Skanda worship in NORTH India, where both Kartikeya and also Muruga were found at the time of Alexander) and himself a great general was given this name as it sounded like Alexander by Brahmin priests who also associated Sikander or Alexander with military as well as with Kartikeya/Muruga/Skanda the War God. So once again, we do see historically, Skanda in NORTH India and even Murugan shows up in the North in the BC period, though today Muruga is primarily South Indian.
It is said, in a battle against a great Asura named Surapadma, upon the “conversion” of this Asura to Saivism, the Lord and Son of Shiva forgave him but transformed him into a peacock as well as a “Victory Flag” (yes, a FLAG!) with the rooster symbol on it.
But the rooster in itself is also sometime seen as a mount. Or seen as also Surapadma who was “cut in half”, but then one became a peacock and the other a rooster.
I can tell you the peacock as a symbol for a Royal of Military Demenour goes way, way back. You can include the “peacock” in this symbolism. Now it is common to think of Murugan as having a footprint in South India, as I mentioned. But there was a great empire, the Yaudheyas, who existed for a long time, mentioned in the Mahabharata, and in modern historical writings (modern in terms of Mahabharata which is much older) from about 500 BC and was at their “height” of grandeur around 200 BC (though sometimes great nations and tribes rise, then fall, then rise again) – and their historical lands were in North India and not the South. They reigned North-East of Mathura, and most of the Punjab.
Now look at their coins!
This is most certainly Muruga holding the Vel with either rooster or peacock! And in North India, not the South:
And look again! Six headed! (Kartikeya!):
So we see in NORTH INDIA in the “hundreds” BC coins of the Yaudheyas of Kartikeya, but ALSO MURUGAN both in the same venue, and obviously Lord Skanda was the primary deity.
Now some say the Name of Skanda is related to Sikander which Alexander the Great adopted as one of his names - "Iskandar" (Skander of Sikander or Iskandar) as he was very much interested in Kartikeya of the North-East region of India (Alexander arrived also into North East India, around 325 BC - so again affirming Skanda worship in NORTH India, where both Kartikeya and also Muruga were found at the time of Alexander) and himself a great general was given this name as it sounded like Alexander by Brahmin priests who also associated Sikander or Alexander with military as well as with Kartikeya/Muruga/Skanda the War God. So once again, we do see historically, Skanda in NORTH India and even Murugan shows up in the North in the BC period, though today Muruga is primarily South Indian.
Last edited:
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
When I am worshiping, then there is no other. Dhyana, man, dhyana.
Simply beautiful, Vishwarupa!
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
Kumara in Vedas ('Arctic Home in Vedas', BG Tilak)
“It is the story of the hidden Agni who is described in X, 124, 1, as having long (jyok) resided in the long darkness (dirgham tamah), and who eventually comes out as the child of waters (apâm napât, I, 143, 1). The epithet apâm napât as applied to Agni is usually explained as referring to the lightening produced from the clouds, but - this explanation does not account for the fact of his long residence in darkness. The puzzle or the riddle is, however, satisfactorily solved by the Arctic theory, combined with the cosmic circulation of aerial waters. The sun, who moves in the interior of heaven and earth for ten months, as in the womb of his mother, naturally suggested to the Vedic poets the parallel idea of the period of ten months’ gestation; but the wonder was that while a child is visible to all as soon as it is born, the sun became invisible just at the time when he came out of the womb.
Where did he go? Was he locked up in a wooden chest or bound down with leather straps in the region of waters? Why did the mother not present him to the father after he was safely delivered? Was he safely delivered? These questions naturally arise out of the story, and the Vedic poets appear to take delight in reverting again and again to the same paradox in different places. And what applies to Sûrya or the sun applies to Agni as well; for there are many passages in the Rig-Veda where Agni is identified with the sun. Thus Agni is said to be the light of heaven in the bright sky, waking at dawn, the head of heaven (III, 2, 14), and he is described as having been born on the other side of the air in X, 187, 5. In the Aitareya Brâhmana (VIII, 28), we are further told that the sun, when setting, enters into Agni and is reproduced from the latter; and the same identification appears to be alluded to in the passages from the Rig-Veda, where Agni is said to unite with the light of the sun or to shine in heaven (VIII, 44, 29).
The story of concealing the child after ten months of gestation whether applied to Agni or to Sûrya is thus only a different version of the story of the disappearance of the sun from the upper hemisphere after ten months of sunshine. But what became of the child (Kumâra) which disappeared in this way? Was he lost for ever or again restored to his parents? How did the father or even the mother obtain the child so lost? Some one must bring the child to them, and this task seems to have been entrusted to the Ribhus or the Ashvins in the Rig-Veda. Thus in I, 110, 8, the Ribhus are said to have united the mother with the calf, and in I, 116, 13, the Ashvins are described as giving to Vadhrimati a child called Hiranyahasta. The story of restoring Vishnâpu to Vishvaka (I, 117, 7) and of giving milk to Shayu’s cow probably refer to the same phenomenon of bringing back the morning sun to the parents; and from this it is but a small step to the story of Kumâra (lit., a child), one of the names of Kârttikeya in the Purânas.
It was this Kumâra, or the once hidden (guha), or dropped (skanda), rising along with the seven rivers or mothers (VIII, 96, 1) in the morning, that led the army of gods or light and walked victoriously along the Devayâna path. He was the leader of days, or the army of gods; and as Maruts were the allies of Indra in his conflict with Vṛitra, Kumara or the Child, meaning the morning sun, may, by a turn of the mythological kaleidoscope, be very well called a son of Rudra, the later representative of the Maruts; or said to be born of Agni, who dwelt in waters; or described as the son of seven or six Kṛittikâs. As the morning sun has to pierce his way up through the apertures of Albûrz, temporarily closed by Vṛitra, this Kumâra can again be well termed Krauñcha-dârana, or the piercer of the Krauñcha mountain, an epithet applied to him in the Purânas.
But we are not here concerned with the growth which Kumâra, or the child of the morning, attained in later mythology. We took up the legends of the Ashvins with a view to see if there were any incidents in them which became intelligible only on the Arctic theory, and the foregoing examination of the legends shows that we have not searched in vain. The expression dasha-mâsya in the legend of Sapta-vadhri and dashame yuge in that of Dîrghatamas directly indicate a period of ten months’ sunshine, and we ‘have seen that three, ten, or a hundred continuous nights are also referred to directly or metaphorically in some of these legends. We have again such expressions as “the sun sleeping in darkness or in the lap of Nir-ṛiti,” which show that actual and not metaphorical darkness was intended."
“It is the story of the hidden Agni who is described in X, 124, 1, as having long (jyok) resided in the long darkness (dirgham tamah), and who eventually comes out as the child of waters (apâm napât, I, 143, 1). The epithet apâm napât as applied to Agni is usually explained as referring to the lightening produced from the clouds, but - this explanation does not account for the fact of his long residence in darkness. The puzzle or the riddle is, however, satisfactorily solved by the Arctic theory, combined with the cosmic circulation of aerial waters. The sun, who moves in the interior of heaven and earth for ten months, as in the womb of his mother, naturally suggested to the Vedic poets the parallel idea of the period of ten months’ gestation; but the wonder was that while a child is visible to all as soon as it is born, the sun became invisible just at the time when he came out of the womb.
Where did he go? Was he locked up in a wooden chest or bound down with leather straps in the region of waters? Why did the mother not present him to the father after he was safely delivered? Was he safely delivered? These questions naturally arise out of the story, and the Vedic poets appear to take delight in reverting again and again to the same paradox in different places. And what applies to Sûrya or the sun applies to Agni as well; for there are many passages in the Rig-Veda where Agni is identified with the sun. Thus Agni is said to be the light of heaven in the bright sky, waking at dawn, the head of heaven (III, 2, 14), and he is described as having been born on the other side of the air in X, 187, 5. In the Aitareya Brâhmana (VIII, 28), we are further told that the sun, when setting, enters into Agni and is reproduced from the latter; and the same identification appears to be alluded to in the passages from the Rig-Veda, where Agni is said to unite with the light of the sun or to shine in heaven (VIII, 44, 29).
The story of concealing the child after ten months of gestation whether applied to Agni or to Sûrya is thus only a different version of the story of the disappearance of the sun from the upper hemisphere after ten months of sunshine. But what became of the child (Kumâra) which disappeared in this way? Was he lost for ever or again restored to his parents? How did the father or even the mother obtain the child so lost? Some one must bring the child to them, and this task seems to have been entrusted to the Ribhus or the Ashvins in the Rig-Veda. Thus in I, 110, 8, the Ribhus are said to have united the mother with the calf, and in I, 116, 13, the Ashvins are described as giving to Vadhrimati a child called Hiranyahasta. The story of restoring Vishnâpu to Vishvaka (I, 117, 7) and of giving milk to Shayu’s cow probably refer to the same phenomenon of bringing back the morning sun to the parents; and from this it is but a small step to the story of Kumâra (lit., a child), one of the names of Kârttikeya in the Purânas.
It was this Kumâra, or the once hidden (guha), or dropped (skanda), rising along with the seven rivers or mothers (VIII, 96, 1) in the morning, that led the army of gods or light and walked victoriously along the Devayâna path. He was the leader of days, or the army of gods; and as Maruts were the allies of Indra in his conflict with Vṛitra, Kumara or the Child, meaning the morning sun, may, by a turn of the mythological kaleidoscope, be very well called a son of Rudra, the later representative of the Maruts; or said to be born of Agni, who dwelt in waters; or described as the son of seven or six Kṛittikâs. As the morning sun has to pierce his way up through the apertures of Albûrz, temporarily closed by Vṛitra, this Kumâra can again be well termed Krauñcha-dârana, or the piercer of the Krauñcha mountain, an epithet applied to him in the Purânas.
But we are not here concerned with the growth which Kumâra, or the child of the morning, attained in later mythology. We took up the legends of the Ashvins with a view to see if there were any incidents in them which became intelligible only on the Arctic theory, and the foregoing examination of the legends shows that we have not searched in vain. The expression dasha-mâsya in the legend of Sapta-vadhri and dashame yuge in that of Dîrghatamas directly indicate a period of ten months’ sunshine, and we ‘have seen that three, ten, or a hundred continuous nights are also referred to directly or metaphorically in some of these legends. We have again such expressions as “the sun sleeping in darkness or in the lap of Nir-ṛiti,” which show that actual and not metaphorical darkness was intended."
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
Let me add, that if we go by Tilak, then Kumara idea if not the story (stories keep on changing all the time), belongs to Sub-Arctic regions prior to the last glacial maxima. That will make it 10,000 years old.
Tatpurushāya vidmahe, Mahā Senāya dhimahi, Tanno Shanmugha prachodayāt.
Tatpurushāya vidmahe, Mahā Senāya dhimahi, Tanno Shanmugha prachodayāt.
Last edited:
Now is now. I worshiped Murugan last night, and I will again tonight, and off and on for the rest of this lifetime, i suspect. The Power that is Murugan's Vel is alive and present in every living moment.
It is irrelevant (to me) as to how this relationship got to where it is. The fact is the king is at my door, and from whence He came, how long His journey was through which lands, what his trials were ... well, I don't really care. I still have to host Him as a great guest.
We're so lucky, and it tells you something about the sustaining power of Sanatana Dharma, as some other ancient Gods have long since left, it seems. Historically speaking, regarding ancient cultures, ours has survived the tests of time.
It is irrelevant (to me) as to how this relationship got to where it is. The fact is the king is at my door, and from whence He came, how long His journey was through which lands, what his trials were ... well, I don't really care. I still have to host Him as a great guest.
We're so lucky, and it tells you something about the sustaining power of Sanatana Dharma, as some other ancient Gods have long since left, it seems. Historically speaking, regarding ancient cultures, ours has survived the tests of time.
Last edited:
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
Yeah, it amuses and pleasures me greatly. We (Hindus) are fortunate to be the heirs of two such old uninterrupted cultures which are now one, Aryan and Indigenous Indian. Sanatan Dharma is really eternal. All hail the wielder of the Vel.
"The Kārttikeya-type coins of Huvishka bear wide variations in form, style and iconographic content. The deity is shown either alone with the name Māsena (Mahāsena), or in pair with the label Skandakumāro-Vizāgo (Skandakumāra and Vişāka) or in a triad with the legend Skandakumāro-Māseno-Vizāgo (Skandakumāra, Mahāsena and Vişākha)."
"Next, the early tribal republics including the Audumbaras and the Yaudheyas of Punjab issued a good number of Kārttikeya coins."
http://murugan.org/research/suresh.htm
The legend says "Bhagawatah Swamino Brahmanasya Kumarsya" (Coin of Lord Master Brahmanya Kumara).
"The Audumbras, or Audumbaras were a north Indian tribal nation east of the Punjab, in the Western Himalaya region. They were the most important tribe of the Himachal, and lived in the lower hills between Sirmaur, Chamba and Yamuna. .. They are the same people as the Odemboerce of Pliny. Hist Nat VI 23. Professor Lassen mentions them as the name of the people of Kutch of Gujarat state. .. It (Koteswara) is the name of Shiva. Audumvara like other tribes namely Sibi, Mujavats and Mahavrises were worshipers of Shiva, whereas Aryans worshiped Vishnu in the earliest times. Kotesvara is now only a small village and the temple Kotesvara is still there and worshiped."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audumbaras
Koteswara Temple, Rann of Kutch. Dwarika, Dholavira in the Kutch image.
Kindly excuse me for all this historical research, but I have to keep up the family tradition (being the grandson of a historian).
"The Kārttikeya-type coins of Huvishka bear wide variations in form, style and iconographic content. The deity is shown either alone with the name Māsena (Mahāsena), or in pair with the label Skandakumāro-Vizāgo (Skandakumāra and Vişāka) or in a triad with the legend Skandakumāro-Māseno-Vizāgo (Skandakumāra, Mahāsena and Vişākha)."
"Next, the early tribal republics including the Audumbaras and the Yaudheyas of Punjab issued a good number of Kārttikeya coins."
http://murugan.org/research/suresh.htm
The legend says "Bhagawatah Swamino Brahmanasya Kumarsya" (Coin of Lord Master Brahmanya Kumara).
"The Audumbras, or Audumbaras were a north Indian tribal nation east of the Punjab, in the Western Himalaya region. They were the most important tribe of the Himachal, and lived in the lower hills between Sirmaur, Chamba and Yamuna. .. They are the same people as the Odemboerce of Pliny. Hist Nat VI 23. Professor Lassen mentions them as the name of the people of Kutch of Gujarat state. .. It (Koteswara) is the name of Shiva. Audumvara like other tribes namely Sibi, Mujavats and Mahavrises were worshipers of Shiva, whereas Aryans worshiped Vishnu in the earliest times. Kotesvara is now only a small village and the temple Kotesvara is still there and worshiped."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audumbaras
Kindly excuse me for all this historical research, but I have to keep up the family tradition (being the grandson of a historian).
Last edited: