Muslim Baha'i Dialogue

[Cordoba]

Salam and Greetings to all

The 2 main questions of this thread are:

Where do Muslims and Baha'is agree?

Where do they disagree?

 

[Cordoba]

The main Divine reference of Muslims is The Qur'an

Is that also the case for Baha'is?

 

[Popeyesays]

The Bab established two books that constitute The Book for His Revelation: The Bayan (which was not completed before His martyrdom in Tabriz), and The Quayyum'l Asma.

Baha`u'llah established several books of Revelation addressing different methods: The Kitab'i Aqdas, which contains the laws of His Revelation, also the Kitab'i Iqan, and the Hidden Words (both Arabic and Persian)

We recognize the authority of the Qur'an and the station of Muhammed. We also accept Gospels of Jesus, the Torah and TaNakh, and the station of Jesus, Moses, Abraham, Noah, Salih, Hud, Krishna, Buddha, Zoroaster. But please note that Baha`u'llah explicitly says that while the spiritual laws of previous Revelations have not changed, the social laws of each Revelation change in accordance with what the civilization of mankind needs in the period of that particular Manifestation.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Cordoba]

Thank you Scott for the introduction

The Qur'an is clear in that Muhammad, peace be upon him, is the seal of God's Prophets (Verse 33:40)

Do Baha'is consider The Bab as a reformer or as a prophet sent by God?

 

[Booko]

Do Baha'is consider The Bab as a reformer or as a prophet sent by God?

The Bab is considered a prophet in His own right.

Another area of agreement: There is no God but God, and Muhammad is His Prophet.

Oh, and one more regarding Isa: We do not view Isa as God either.

I will leave Scott to address the meaning of Seal of the Prophets.

 

[Popeyesays]

Seal of the Prophets is complex because the word has so many meanings. In both Arabic and English this is true.

Khatiim is the word chosen by Muhammed to convey the interpretation for the phrase, and it more rightly means Ornament, Warrantor, Guarantee of purity and origin.

Therefore Muhammed is the Guarantee of the purity of the origin of all the Prophets, (So is every other Prophet). Muhammed is also the Ornament of God's Revelation. Muhammed warrants the authoreity of God through the Prophets.

Khatiim does not really imply the last or a closed book.

Muslims accuse Jews of binding up the hands of God becauwse they do not accept other Prophets. Baha`i's would say that the pundits of Islam make the same mistake.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Cordoba]

Thank you Scott

I have The Qur'an in Arabic in front of me at the moment

The Qur'an word in Arabic in verse (33:40) is Khattam, which means the last, not Khattim

Peace and all the best

 

[Popeyesays]

Islam is not the last religion according to Qur'an and Hadith

• 
  To every people is a term appointed: when their term is reached not an hour can they cause delay nor (an hour) can they advance." Qur'an 7:34

• 
  O children of Adam, verily apostles from among you shall come unto you, who shall expound my signs unto you: whosoever therefore shall fear God and amend, there shall come no fear on them, neither shall they be grieved. Qur'an 7:35

The first section of the verse 35 reads in Arabic as follows:

• Ya Bani Aadam imaa Ya'tianakum rosolo minkum....."

Conclusions from 7:34-35;
1) Please note that every ummah (religious community or nation) has has an end or consummation.
2) Appearance of future Apostles of God is explicitly mentioned here.
3) These Apostles (more that one Apostle -i.e. Mahdi and Isaa bin Maryam) must come from among the Muslim ummah.
4) These Apostles shall come in the future.
This verse cannot possibly be a reference to Prophet Muhammad since when Qur'an refers to Muhammad the reference is made in the past tense and not future tense.
There is a wonderful Hadith reported by Allamih Sahl ibn-i `Abdu'llah Shooshtary from `Akramih who reports that Ibn-i `Abbas asked Prophet Muhammad: `What shall be the source of our salvation in the future?' Prophet Muhammad replied: `Follow the Qur'an because in it God has informed you of the nations which came before you as well as those nations which will come after you. Also because Qur'an contains the laws of your religion which you are responsible to follow and by the aid of which judge among yourselves.'
Please note how clearly this Hadith is addressing the gist of the Muslim concern about future revelations. Moreover, this Hadith is in total conformity with Qur'an 7:34-35 as its Mossadiq (i.e. Confirmer) and its Muhaymin (i.e. guardian).
NOTE: It is perhaps important to clarify an issue about Qur'an 7:35. Some Muslims believe that the verse of the Qur'an mentioned above is as one Muslim friend put it: `the commands of Allah to Prophet Adam (AS) who was the first Prophet. Allah is saying O' sons of Prophet Adam, shall come many prophets after Prophet Adam (a total of 123999 after Prophet Adam).'
This is extremely questionable. Let us examine this issue in the context of Hadith and see who does the term `ya bani Adam', meaning `O children of Adam' is referring to:
Narrated by Abu Huraira:

• 
  Allah's Apostle said, "I have been sent (as an Apostle) in the best of all the generations of Adam's offspring since their creation." Sahih Bukhari 4:757

The people among whom Prophet Muhammad appeared are identified as `Adam's offsprings'. The generation among whom Muhammad appeared is identified as `the best of all the generations of Adam's offspring'. Let us look at yet another one:
Narrated `Aisha:

• 
  We set out with the Prophet for Hajj [i.e. Pilgrimage. KH] and when we reached Sarif I got my menses. When the Prophet came to me, I was weeping. He asked, `Why are you weeping?' I said, `I wish if I had not performed Hajj this year.' He asked, `May be that you got your menses?' I replied, `Yes.' He then said, `This is the thing which Allah has ordained for all the daughters of Adam. So do what all the pilgrims do except that you do not perform the Tawaf [i.e. Circumambulation. KH] round the Ka'ba till you are clean." Sahih Bukhari 1:302

Please note that women are categorically identified as `daughters of Adam'. Menses was ordained for both Muslim women and women living prior to Islam, yet the ruling of this Hadith applies to `daughters of Adam', namely Muslim women.
Since I was aware that the Shi'ah friends might not be fond of the Ahadith I've quoted above in particular the one narrated by 'Aisha, the umm'ul Momenin, and moreover, since Muslim friends are very much interested in contextual relevance of what I quote I feel obliged to also demonstrate this issue in the context of the verses of the Qur'an. Hopefully the following example will demonstrate this issue:

• ya bani adama khozoo zinatakom enda kolle masjiden Qur'an 7:31

Which translates to:

• O Children of Adam! Look to your adornment in every Masjid.

Please note that along with the term `ya bani adam' (i.e. O Children of Adam) the term Masjid (i.e. place of worship) which I feel is particular to Muslims appear in this verse of the Qur'an. As a result the term "ya bani adam" is a reference to the Muslim ummah.
I know! Some might disagree with the fact that the term `masjid' as a place of worship is particular to the Muslim ummah. However, it is important to point out that neither Jews, nor Christians identify their places of worship as Masjid. Let us consider some other verses:

• 
  wa man azlama min man mana'a masajida llahe an yazkara fihaa asmoho wa sa'aa fi kharabehaa" Qur'an 2:114

Which translates to:

• And who is more unjust than he who forbids that in masajid (i.e. masjids) Allah's name should be celebrated and to destroy them.

I hope it is clear that the above mentioned verse is addressed to the ummah of Islam since neither Jews tried to destroy their own synagogues, nor Christians attempted to destroy their own churches.
Also:

• 
  innamaa ya'amoro masajida llahe man aamana billahe wal yawmil aakhire Qur'an 9:18

Which translates to:

• He only shall attend to the masajid of Allah who believes in Allah and the Last Day.

None but Muslims are intended by this verse to attend MASJID. Since it is a Muslim who believes in Allah and the Last Day. The theme is repeated throughout the Qur'an.
Now the question is how valid is the above assumption (i.e. masjid being the place in which only Muslims worship Allah.). The following verse of the Qur'an clearly demonstrates this issue:

• 
  wa law-laa dafa-o llahe an-naasa ba'azahum bi-ba'azin lahoddemat sawamion wa biya wa salawaat wa masajid yozkaro fihaa ismo- llahe kasiran." Qur'an 22:40

Which Yusuf Ali translates as:

• Did not Allah check one set of people by the means of another there would surely have been pulled down monasteries churches synagogues and mosques in which the name of Allah is commemorated in Abundant measure.

Please note that the places of worship belonging to Jews, Christian and Muslims have clearly been distinguished by their particular designation (i.e. churches, synagogues and mosques". If the term masjid was used as a universal term to identify the place of worship for the followers of all religions then there would have been no reason for the verse of the Qur'an to mention the Jewish and Christian places of worship separately. So, when the Holy Qur'an reveals:

• ya bani adama khozoo zinatakom enda kolle masjiden Qur'an 7:31

The term `ya bani adam' or `O children of Adam' along with the term `masjid' the latter clarrifies who is intended by `ya bani adam' (i.e. Muslims). Verse 7:31 of the Qur'an is of particular importance in this case because it appears prior to Qur'an 7:35 where it says:

• O children of Adam, verily apostles from among you shall come unto you who shall expound my signs unto you...

As a result the term `ya bani adam' or `O children of Adam' in this verse applies to Muslims both contextually and logically. These apostles must appear from among the ummah of Islam.
The argument presented by the Muslim friends about `children of Adam' (mentioned in Qur'an 7:35) referring only to the descendants of Prophet Adam who lived prior to Prophet Muhammad (therefore it does not apply to Muhammad and the time after Him) is a feeble attempt to undermine the message of the Holy Qur'an.
I hope this writing offers a fresh perspective for consideration and contemplation.
Let us go back to the original theme.
According to the Qur'anic prescription God has always sent His Messengers for the education of the peoples of the world, and will continue to do do so. No nation (ummah) will be deprived of God's mercy. The Holy Qur'an refers to this theme on many different occasions. The following references (Surih Fatir:22, Nahl:38, Yunis:47, and Hadj:67) clearly convey this idea. For example consider Yunis:47:

• And every nation [i.e. ummah] had an apostle; so when their apostle came, the matter was decided between them with justice and they shall not be dealt with unjustly.

Six meanings associated with the terms seal of prophets

 

[Popeyesays]

con tinue:

Furthermore, Yunis:49 suggests that every nation (ummah) has an end (ajal), and a final consummation.

• ...Every nation [i.e. ummah] has a term [i.e. ajal]; when their term [i.e. ajal] comes, they shall not then remain behind, nor shall they go before (their time) [i.e. They cannot delay or accelerate that time.]

Both Sunni and Shi'ah sources have reported Ahadith in reference to this theme. For example: In the book of Najm'us-Saghib, Haji Mirza Husayn-i Noori the well-known Shi'ah scholar and commentator writes in reference to interpretation of this verse of the Qur'an:

• 
  At the time of the revelation of this verse (`le-kolle ummaten ajal') which suggests that for every nation a term has been established, they asked the Messenger of God what is the term for the ummah of Islam, and He replies: `If my people [i.e. Muslims] were truthful they remain for one day. If they degrade, half a day will they last.'[Bihar'ul Anvar, Vol 13]" Najm'us-Saghib p. 87

Muslims as an `ummah' have an `ajal' too, as clearly demonstrated above, and when this `ajal' comes they will be unable to change it even for an hour. When their `ajal' comes a new Messenger of God will appear, per A'araf: 34 and Yunis: 47, to form a new `ummah'.
The meaning of one day discussed in the above Hadith is given in the Qur'an as follows:

• 
  He regulates the affair from the heaven to the earth; then shall it ascend to Him in a day the measure of which is a Thousand years of what you count. Al-Sujdah:5

The same concept, of a day=1000 years, is also repeated in Al-Hadj:44.
So, according to the Hadith from Prophet Muhammad, `ajal', end, or the term for the "ummah" of Islam is anywhere between 500 to 1000 years, depending on Muslim accomplishments and status.
The following Hadith clearly draws an inescapable parallel between the ummah of Islam and the Jewish ummah and the Christian ummah in regards to the fact that it too has an end. Narrated by `Abdu'llah bin `Umar:

• 
  I heard Allah's Apostle while he was standing on the pulpit, saying: `The remaining period of your stay in comparison to the nations [umam, plural of ummah. KH] before you [i.e. Jewish ummah and Christian ummah, etc... KH], is like the period between the 'Asr prayer and sunset. The people of the Torah were given the Torah and they acted upon it till midday, and then they were worn out and were given for their labor, one Qirat each. The the people of the Gospel were given the Gospel and they acted upon it till the time of the `Asr prayer, and then they were worn out and were given (for their labor), one Qirat each. Then you people were given the Qur'an and you acted upon it till sunset and so you were given two Qirat each.'.... Bukhari 9:559

Please note how beautifully Prophet Muhammad is portraying the fact that three communities (i.e. umam) namely Jewish Faith, Christianity and Islam have fixed terms similar to the obligatory prayers. As the five Muslim daily Obligatory Prayers have to begin and end in particular time frames, each religion and its ummah must also begin and end in a particular time frame:
1) Jewish ---> till midday
2) Christian ---> till afternoon
3) Muslim ---> till sunset
The implication of this Hadith is no less than two other obligatory prayers must follow the three mentioned above by the Prophet in order to complete the five. The other two obligatory prayers are the ummah or communities of Mahdi and Isaa bin Maryam. Since I am cognizant of the fact that you want every Hadith to be in conformance with the verses of the Qur'an, I'd like to present the following verse of the Qur'an for your consideration:

• 
  Aqim as-salaat ledluk ash-shams illa ghasq al-layl va Qur'an al-fajr inna Qur'an al-fajr kaana mash-hoodan. Qur'an 7:78

Yusof Ali translates this to:

• Establish regular prayers at the sun's decline till the darkness of the night and the morning prayer and reading: for the prayer and reading in the morning carry their testimony.

This verse of the Qur'an commands the believers to pray, in accordance with the above mentioned Hadith at sun's decline till darkness. That is to say the commandment of prayer which is one of the main pillars of Islam remains valid until `ghasq al-layl' or darkness of the night. According to the terminology of `Jafr' the term `ghasq al-layl' equals to 1261. (gh=1000, s=60, q=100, a=1, l=30, l=30, y=10 and l=30 according to the abjad notation which equals to 1261). That is to say: O Muslims conduct the ordinance of the obligatory prayer from the decline of the the sun of Muhammad's revelation until the year 1261. and then the verse goes on to say: `for the prayer and reading in the morning carry their testimony.' That is to say, when the next Messengers appear after that time (i.e. 1261 years) they will re-establish the ordinance of obligatory prayer once again.
Per testimony of this verse of the Qur'an, The Bab proclaimed His Mission in 1260 years after the revelation of Prophet Muhammad as the Awaited Mahdi of the House of the Prophet and changed the ordinance of the Obligatory Prayer.
The year 1260, or 1000 years from the revelation of Prophet Muhammad (i.e. 1844 AD) is a theme which repeatedly appears in the Qur'an and the Hadith and the Bible (both the Old and the New Testaments) in regards to the appearance of Mahdi (per Sunni/Shi'ah expectation), or Qa'im (per Shi'ah expectation) or Return of John the Baptist or Return of Elijah (per Christian and Jewish expectations). I am not going to discuss this any more here for the sake of brevity.
Let us examine this issue further. Another Hadith from Prophet Muhammad which is accepted by both Shi'ahs and Sunnis is mentioned by Ibn-i Babuyih known as Sheikh Sadoogh in Kamal-ud-Din. This Hadith is from Said-ibn-i Jabir who reports it from Ibn-i Abbas, who heard it from Prophet Muhammad Who said:

• My successors after Me are God's proofs for the people of the earth. They are twelve. First one of them my brother and last of them will be my child. They asked: O Apostle of God who is your brother? He said Ali-ibn Abu Talib. They asked who is your child? He said: He is Mahdi who will fill the earth with justice, even if it is full of injustice and wretchedness. I swear to God Who made Me His Messenger even if one day is left from the age of the world, God will lenghten that day to the extent that My child Mahdi will become manifest. Then Issa, the Spirit of God descends from heaven and pray behind Him.

Furthermore, Prophet Muhammad is recorded to have said:

• 
  Vas-samaa-eh Zat-el Boruj" [Al-Boruj:1] meaning: `I swear by heaven which has towers.' Asbagh Ibn-i Nabatah mentions a Hadith reported by Ibn-i Abbas who reports the Prophet to have said: By the term `heaven', in this verse, I am meant, and `towers' are the Imams of My House, the first of Whom is Ali and the last of Them is Mahdi and they are twelve. Bihar'ul Anvar, ch 6:63, p. 273

There are several other Ahadith which offer similar concept about the status of the Imams, however, I will not mention here for the sake of brevity. The point of interest in these Ahadith is the confirmation of the truth of Imamat after passing of Prophet Muhammad. Prophet Muhammad identifies the 12 Imams, the last of Whom is Mahdi with such titles as `God's proof among mankind', and the `towers of heaven', when heaven is no less that Muhammad the Apostle of God.
So, humanity had, after the passing of Prophet Muhammad a source of guidance (i.e. Imamat) until the 11th Imam (Imam Hasan-i Asgari) passed away on the year 260 A.H. Therefore, the timeline for the term, or "ajal" of the ummah of Islam must be one day (i.e. 1000 years) from the death of Imam Hasan-i Asgari, who was the last source of divine guidance among the ummah of Islam, or 1260 A.H. which, according to the directive of the Qur'an is the date of the appearance of Mahdi. Let us examine the Hadith and see what they say in this regards:
According to a Shi'ah Tradition; Mufaddal asked Imam Sa'diq saying: `What of the signs of His manifestation, [i.e. Mahdi's] O my master?' He replied: 'In the year sixty [which is a metaphorical presentation of 1260 A.H.], His Cause [i.e. religion] shall be made manifest, and His name shall be proclaimed.'.
Furthermore;

• 
  I swear by the stars of retrograde motions which move swiftly and hide themselves away." [Al-Takvir:15-16] Sheikh Sadoogh in Kaml-ud-Din reports a Hadith from Imam Muhammad Baqir (Peace be upon him) who answers Umm- Hanni about this verse of the Qur'an saying: This verse refers to the Imam who will enter occultation in the year 260 (A.H.), then He will re- appear like a shining star. If you see Him your eyes will gain light. Bihar'ul Anvar, ch 5:24, p. 258

 

[Popeyesays]

Continue:

Now that another perspective has been offered about the limitation of Islam, let us examine the concept of finality of Shriat/Qur'an.
In the Holy Qur'an we find:

• Va Kol-lo Yao-men Howa fi Sha`nen" [Al-Rahman: 29]

Which means: Every day has its own circumstances and requirements.
Also, the Qur'an teaches:

• Va le-kol-le Ajal-en Kitab [Al-Ra'd: 38]

Which means:

• For every term (i.e. ajal, or end) there is a Book.

Therefore, when the ajal, or the term of an `ummah' (nation or community) is reached, God will reveal a new Book, and a new code of laws (i.e. Shariah) , to best suit the circumstance of that age. So, when the term of Islam is reached and the Mahdi appears, He must of necessity reveal a new Book. Perhaps the following Ahadith from the Imams of the Faith, who are referred to as Proofs of God among mankind according to Prophet Muhammad, capture the gist of this concept.
Prophet Muhammad, is recorded to have said:

• There will be no Book after my Book [the Holy Qur'an. KH], and, there will be no religion after my religion [Islam. KH] until the day of resurrection.

Moreover, He is recorded to have said in another Hadith:

• Whatever was made lawful by Me [i.e. Muhammad. KH] shall remain lawful until the day of resurrection, and whatever was made unlawful by Me shall remain unlawful until the day of resurrection.

Therefore, the Day of Resurrection is the `term', `ajal', or the `end' of Islam as an `ummah' (i.e. a nation). Imam Muhammad Sadiq clarifies the meaning of the Day of resurrection in a Hadith as follows:

• When the Qa'im [i.e. Mahdi] riseth, that day is the Day of Resurrection.

Furthermore, in the Arba'in which is a compilation of Shi'ah Tradition it is recorded:

• Out of Bani-Hashim there shall come forth a Youth Who shall reveal new laws. He shall summon the people unto Him, but none will heed His call. Most of His enemies will be the divines [i.e. religious leaders]. His bidding they will not obey, but will protest saying: 'This is contrary to that which hath been handed down unto us by the Imams of the Faith.

Imam Sadiq is also recorded to have said:

• There shall appear a Youth from Bani-Hashim, Who will bid the people plight fealty unto Him. His Book will be a new Book, unto which He shall summon the people to pledge their faith. Stern is His Revelation unto the Arab. If ye hear it about Him, hasten unto Him.

There are several other Hadith which I will not mention here for the sake of brevity.
Islam is by no means the last Shariah. On the contrary, both the Qur'an and the Hadith suggest otherwise:

• 
  And thus have we made you a middle nation that you may be the bearers of witness to the people. Qur'an 2:143

Islam is a transitory religion, and its Shariah is also transitory. Perhaps the following Hadith clarifies this issue further. Ibn-i Majah recounts from Ali ibn-Abu Talib:

• 
  Ali, the Commander of the Faithful says: I asked the Messenger of God: O Apostle of God! Does Mahdi belong to our household or is He from another? The Messenger of God said; He is from us. God will end religion through Him, the same way He opend it through Me.... Bihar'ul Anvar ch 6, p. 314

I hope that what I have mentioned offers you a reasonable criteria for the consideration of another religion after Islam.

all fromn the same web citation listed in the first part.

regards,
Scott

 

[Cordoba]

Those are very lengthy quotes, but not relevant to answer verse (33:40)

<< I hope that what I have mentioned offers you a reasonable criteria for the consideration of another religion after Islam >>

We'll have to agree to disagree on that Scott

Khattam Al-Nabiyeen means Muhammad, peace be upon him, was God's last Prophet

There are no prophets sent by God after him, peace be upon him

Peace and all the best

 

[Popeyesays]

Those are very lengthy quotes, but not relevant to answer verse (33:40)

<< I hope that what I have mentioned offers you a reasonable criteria for the consideration of another religion after Islam >>

We'll have to agree to disagree on that Scott

Khattam Al-Nabiyeen means Muhammad, peace be upon him, was God's last Prophet

There are no prophets sent by God after him, peace be upon him

Peace and all the best

What about the last Rasul?

To every nation [ajal] a term; when their term comes they shall not put it back by a single hour nor put it forward. (7:33)

To each age [ajal] its Book. (13:38)

Neither too soon, nor too late, shall a people reach its appointed time. (23:43)​

Moreover the Qur'án condemns the attitude of those who believe that, after the passing of an apostle, no other apostles will be sent by God, and mock the claimant of a new revelation:

Moreover, Joseph had come to you before with clear tokens, but you ceased not to doubt of the Message with which he came to you, until when he died, you said, `God will by no means raise up a Messenger [rasúl] after him'. Thus God misleadeth him who is a transgressor, a doubter. (40:34)
No apostle [rasúl] cometh to them but they laugh him to scorn. (36:30)

I am willing to agree to disagree, of course.

Regards,
Scott
​

 

[Popeyesays]

I do need to apologize for mixing the words khatiim and khataam. It's sort of symptomatic of the confusion that is generated over 33:40.

"And were they [the Manifestations of God] all to proclaim: "I am the Seal of the Prophets," they verily utter but the truth, beyond the faintest shadow of doubt. For they are all but one person, one soul, one spirit, one revelation. They are all manifestation of the "Beginning" and the "End," the "First" and the "Last" . . . (Baha`u'llah, Ktab'i Iqan, 179).

Regards,
Scott

 

[YmirGF]

I do need to apologize for mixing the words khatiim and khataam. It's sort of symptomatic of the confusion that is generated over 33:40.

"And were they [the Manifestations of God] all to proclaim: "I am the Seal of the Prophets," they verily utter but the truth, beyond the faintest shadow of doubt. For they are all but one person, one soul, one spirit, one revelation. They are all manifestation of the "Beginning" and the "End," the "First" and the "Last" . . . (Baha&#8217;u&#8217;llah, Ktab'i Iqan, 179).

Regards,
Scott

A very interesting discussion, my learned friend, however it does fly in the face of both Prophet Muhammed's [pbuh] and Allah's exhortations to have no intercessors. From my pathetic understanding of Islam, the Muslim perception is that Islam was delivered perfectly by Allah, through Archangel Gabriel and finally through Prophet Muhammed [pbuh]. Islam is deemed to be "the perfect religion". This is part of the reason they are doubtful of any future claims of alleged "Prophets" since the time of Muhammed. God has already given a perfect religion, and it has remained unsullied therefore there is no need of a new revelation or a new religion. The basic idea is that Islam is so perfect that it CANNOT be perverted by mortals as it is protected by Allah.

The rise of a new Prophet and religion flies in the face of this unalterable perception and directly puts into doubt the perceived perfection of what God has already done. Theoretically, any founder and any followers of a new religion would be indictable for offending Islam simply for claiming otherwise.

Undoubtedly I have some angles wrong here and if Cordoba or anyone else from the Muslim faction here on RF could clarify my points I would be eternally grateful.


PS: It is interesting to note that a prophet of God would include a grammatical "fragment" in his writings.

&#8220;For they are all but one person, one soul, one spirit, one revelation.&#8221;

Oddly, I would expect better than that.

 

[Popeyesays]

"
Originally Posted by Baha&#8217;u&#8217;llah
&#8220;For they are all but one person, one soul, one spirit, one revelation.&#8221;

That isn't a fragment. The verb is "are". "They" is the subject.

The Iqan was written first in Persian, as the questions which caused the book to be written were in Persian.

Regards,
Scott

 

[kai]

it seems to me that the idealism of the Baha'i Faith is commendable on the one hand saying they encompass all religions as continuous revelation, which indeed caught my interest, then on the other cut themselves off from Christianity ,Judaism and Islam by saying they are all mistaken and we are the correct religion our revelation is right and yours is wrong . disappointing!

 

[Popeyesays]

From:

A Bahá'í Approach to the

Claim of Finality in Islam Seena Fazel and Khazeh Fananapazir

A Baha'i Approach to the Claim of Finality in Islam


"The concept of Muhammad sealing a cycle in religious history finds rich resonances Shí`i and Shaykhí interpretations of this verse. The "Nahj al-Balághah", a compilation of the Imam `Alí's utterances, depicts the Prophet Muhammad as the terminator [khátim] of that which preceded Him, and the opener [fátih] of that which was closed by him (Imam `Alí, Nahj 109). There is also a Tablet of Visitation of Imam `Alí addressing Muhammad, which says, "Peace be upon Thee, O Muhammad, the Seal [khátam] of the Prophets, the Lord of the Divine Envoys, the Trustee of God in mediating divine revelation, the One that closeth [khátim] that which preceded Him, the One that openeth [fátih] that which will unfold in the future" (qtd. in Al-Qummi, Mafátíh 363). Corbin summarizes the classical Shí`i understanding of khátam al-nabiyyín (seal of the prophets) by an interpretation that leaves open the possibility of the future theophanies of Imams or walí. Corbin explains that the cycle of the Imamate was opened with the function to "initiate" and expound "the hidden meanings of revelation":

After the cycle of prophecy (dá'irat al-nubúwa) that ended with Muhammad, the "Seal of the Prophets," there comes the cycle of Initiation (dá'irat al-waláya), the present cycle, placed under the spiritual rule of the Twelfth Imám, the hidden Imám . . . (Spiritual 58)​

The powers of this twelfth Imam, the Qa'im, are further discussed in Sachedina's excellent study of Islamic Messianism. According to hadíth literature, an individual will arise "whose name will be also Muhammad, whose kunya, patronymic, will also be like the Apostle of God, and who will fill the earth will equity and justice, as it has been filled with injustice, oppression and tyranny" (Sachedina, Islamic 3),[36] who will be "the most excellent [afdal] of all the Imams" (ibid, 71), and will command the authority of God (ibid, 162). Al-Sadiq, the sixth Imam, describes the manner by which the twelfth Imam will receive allegiance:

There will be a light emanating from his hand, and he will say: "This is the hand of God; it is from His direction and through His command," and will read this verse of the Qur'an: "Surely those who swear allegiance to you do but swear allegiance to God . . . " (48:10). (ibid, 162)​

Significantly the Qa'im will reveal a new book: "Al-Qa'im will rise with a new authority, a new Book, and a new order" (ibid, 175). However, this has led to criticism of such Shí`ite sources because they challenge the Muslim belief of the khátam al-nabiyyín (seal of the prophets) by arrogating to the twelfth Imam the power to abrogate the Islamic religion. The defense of Shí`i traditionists is that Qa'im will implement these changes on his God-given authority. In a sense, Al-Tabarsi argues, "they do not abrogate Islam . . . On the contrary, they are the original, unadulterated rulings of Islam" (ibid, 176).

From the perspective of the twelver Shí`ism, Muhammad can thus be seen as sealing both prophethood and messengership in the sense of being the last of the prophets and messengers before the advent of the Day of Judgement (qiyamat), the rising of the Qa'im and the dawn of a new religious cycle in the spiritual history of humanity. Indeed this the manner by which Bahá'u'lláh praised Muhammad:

Salutations and peace be upon the Lord of mankind, the educator of the nations, He, through whom messengership [risálat] and prophethood [nubuwwat] have been consummated [intahat]. (Bahá'u'lláh, Ishráqát 293, provisional translation)

I beseech Thee ... by Him Whom Thou hast ordained to be the Seal of the Prophets and of Thy Messengers. (Bahá'u'lláh, Prayers 29)​

Therefore in one sense, the Qur'ánic title of khátam al-nabiyyín (seal of the prophets) implies that the prophet and the messenger were a function of theophany which came to an end with Muhammad. "With the Báb and Bahá'u'lláh, in the Bahá'í view, humankind has entered a new religious cycle characterized by a fuller theophany. In this cycle, concepts like `prophet' and `messenger' have been transcended" (Cole, Concept 18). In support, it is significant that the authors cannot find one instance in Bahá'u'lláh's writings in which he refers to himself as a nabí (prophet) or rasúll (messenger).[37] "

Regards,
Scott

 

[kai]

defining evidence by quoting Baha'i scripture to a Muslim is like quoting the new testament to a Jew. utterly pointless they don't believe you

 

[arthra]

Well here's my view on the subject for what it's worth...and thanks for bringing up this topic.

Baha'is basically see Holy Qur'an as authentic... and accept Prophet Muhammad as a Manifestation of God. We also respect Islam as a religion.

You will never find Baha'is attacking Muslims or say supporting forums on the internet that attack Islam or Prophet Muhammad.

The similarities are that we fast and have obligatory prayers and sites of pilgrimage somewhat like those in Islam. Our history is mostly rooted in Iran (Persia) and Iraq of the nineteenth century.

Where we Baha'is probably differ with most Muslims is that we feel that the Bab was the Qa'im/Mahdi and fulfilled the prophecy of the Return of the Twelfth Imam.

We also would accept the the Shiah view of early Islam, that is we believe Imam Ali was the true successor of Prophet Muhammad and the rightful succession was in the Imamate not the Caliphate say of the Umayyad dynasty and so on...

The issue of the Seal we would probably say is that we believe the age of prophecy has been sealed and the age of fulfillment of prophecy has arrived...

Generally though I would say Baha'is are mostly on good terms with Muslims .... We would only ask to be free to observe our Faith in say Iran and be allowed to have our pilgrimages to Holy Places. It's a difficult relationship I think though in a way because there are many Baha'is in some Muslim countries at risk and vulnerable and who are not allowed to practise their Faith.

- Art

 

[Popeyesays]

defining evidence by quoting Baha'i scripture to a Muslim is like quoting the new testament to a Jew. utterly pointless they don't believe you

The last TWO quotes were from B aha`u'llah the first FOUR were from Islamic authorities, including the Imam Ali.

Regards,
Scott