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Muslim Baha'i Dialogue
- Thread starter Cordoba
- Start date
Booko
Deviled Hen
Yes, have you noticed pretty much every religion manages to find a way to rationalize why the next Prophet couldn't possibly be a Prophet? Oh, it's not that they quibble about whether some particular claimant's claims are bollocks -- they simply shut the door on the entire idea. (In the West it's the Jews that are most moderate about this...they simply claim that prophets like Jesus and Muhammad may be prophets...just not for Jews.)
So, good friend, the fact that some adherents of Islam have also slammed the door shut on God and invented a reason to believe that God could not have anything additional to teach us for the rest of humanity's existence is hardly surprising.
Heck, in a bit over 8 centuries perhaps we too will have managed to rationalize a way to reject the next Prophet. At the moment that looks like a very daunting task, but 8 or 9 centuries is a very long time to put minds to work on the problem.
If I understand you right, we both believe that connection with the Divine is available to everyone as an individual. Where we seem to differ is in that phenomenon where some selected individuals across time get singled out for a more full and more direct sort of revelation. At least there's some internal consistency with either your view or mine.
I find it a completely unsatisfying argument that God would send us a Prophet with a message so complete that it would stand the test of time 100,000, much less a million years later. To make that argument at all sensible, it would have to be assumed that humanity would cease to exist in the not too distant future, because we can see in history how even after a few millennia things change enough that some parts of a religion appear quite "outdated". How much would be outdated 100,000 years from now? 100,000 years ago we hadn't even invented agriculture. :sarcastic
Well, as this is not really a comparison of Islam and the Baha'i Faith I'll ring off on that topic unless you want to start a new thread with it.
Naturally. It's why Baha'is are branded heretics and abused and killed in some countries. It's why I would be a fool to even travel to some Muslim-majority countries. But they'll get over it eventually. Religious history shows that it always happens that way. It just takes a few centuries is all.
But just like the Muslims are not concerned about the historical claims of Christians that Christ is the only way so Muhammad(pbuh) must be a liar, neither am I concerned about the claims of some Muslims that Muhammad(pbuh) is the only possible last prophet.
Plus ca change, le meme chose.
Booko
Deviled Hen
Actually, we don't say that the other religions are mistaken. Merely that humans make some interpretive mistakes. Why should that not happen with a religious text? It happens with poetry, prose and computer manuals.
And I'm sure we'll get around to making our own mistakes as well in time.Honestly, there are clear differences in common teachings between those religions that render them totally incompatible, in which case you have the following alternatives:
- The basis of all religions is true, but some humans have misunderstood some things over time.
- Only one message can possibly be true.
- It's all bollocks
Booko
Deviled Hen
It can be offered as a "proof" in which case your point holds, or it can be offered as an "explanation of our views" in which case belief is not relevant.
I may not believe in Scientology either, but if I wanted to understand it I would fully expect a Scientologist to quote me from Hubbard's work to explain their views, eh?
kai
ragamuffin
Actually, we don't say that the other religions are mistaken. Merely that humans make some interpretive mistakes. Why should that not happen with a religious text? It happens with poetry, prose and computer manuals.
Honestly, there are clear differences in common teachings between those religions that render them totally incompatible, in which case you have the following alternatives:
Which do you prefer? I leaned towards "bollocks" for many years, until I discovered the first possibility was actually possible.
- The basis of all religions is true, but some humans have misunderstood some things over time.
- Only one message can possibly be true.
- It's all bollocks
i love this post for your honesty Booko i frubal you , and i am still thinking bollocks for now
kai
ragamuffin
Booko
Deviled Hen
yes thats true at least then you can say its Bollocks with some integrity
Well, it's good to do some research before making pronouncements, eh?
I got halfway through Battlefield Earth and put it down forever. I can see why Hubbard changed careers (sort of). He wasn't doing as well as the other big Campbell-era SF writers for sure, no doubt because his SF was derivative at best.
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
Well, it's good to do some research before making pronouncements, eh?
I got halfway through Battlefield Earth and put it down forever. I can see why Hubbard changed careers (sort of). He wasn't doing as well as the other big Campbell-era SF writers for sure, no doubt because his SF was derivative at best.
He wrote one classic, and wasted a lot of time writing everything from SF to fantasy, to westerns, to truly wretched pulp mystery.
Regards,
Scott
ayani
member
might i write this here, too?
the similarities are many, and remarkable. and the Baha'is might well say that the Baha'i Faith is in some ways simply another manifestation of the One True Faith, surrender unto God and the enjoining of what is good. would that be accurate?
now, as for 4:155, Muhammed being the seal of the prophets, many Muslims understand this as meaning "he's the last", and have terrible attacked Baha'is for what they regard as blasphemy. yet the Christians also claimed this about Jesus, and many will not acknowledge the possibility of a faith coming after Christianity being valid. so do i regard Baha'u'llah as a messenger?
when i read his writings, i'm interested by his Quranic explanations, and i read the writings of a man very much enraptured with God, and longing to express what he has come to understand of God's unity. Baha'u'llah, for me as a Quranic Muslim, was a faithful and pious, remarkable man. i would not agree with the Baha'i understanding of messengers as "manifestations of God", yet as a Muslim, one can not say to anyone who offers peace and professes faith in the One God "you are not a believer!" 4:94 and 6:52.
a dear friend of mine in NM is Baha'i. i regard him as a brother, and we exchange excited information about our faiths, our religious communities, and about Sufi tafsir. truly, any who surrender their entire being unto God and is a doer of good will have their reward with God, and God guides to His paths of peace (plural) whom He will, and those who will to be guided.
the similarities are many, and remarkable. and the Baha'is might well say that the Baha'i Faith is in some ways simply another manifestation of the One True Faith, surrender unto God and the enjoining of what is good. would that be accurate?
now, as for 4:155, Muhammed being the seal of the prophets, many Muslims understand this as meaning "he's the last", and have terrible attacked Baha'is for what they regard as blasphemy. yet the Christians also claimed this about Jesus, and many will not acknowledge the possibility of a faith coming after Christianity being valid. so do i regard Baha'u'llah as a messenger?
when i read his writings, i'm interested by his Quranic explanations, and i read the writings of a man very much enraptured with God, and longing to express what he has come to understand of God's unity. Baha'u'llah, for me as a Quranic Muslim, was a faithful and pious, remarkable man. i would not agree with the Baha'i understanding of messengers as "manifestations of God", yet as a Muslim, one can not say to anyone who offers peace and professes faith in the One God "you are not a believer!" 4:94 and 6:52.
a dear friend of mine in NM is Baha'i. i regard him as a brother, and we exchange excited information about our faiths, our religious communities, and about Sufi tafsir. truly, any who surrender their entire being unto God and is a doer of good will have their reward with God, and God guides to His paths of peace (plural) whom He will, and those who will to be guided.
Booko
Deviled Hen
Oh, absolutely!
Glad to see you around again, ayani!
Yes, I would say so.
To the extent we are able to love God, we also love all our brothers and sisters, yes?
I have a lot of work to do until I can see God reflected in the face of everyone, but I guess that's what a lifetime is for.
ayani
member
true that, sister. thinking reasonably, God has given us life, and the Quran (and Baha'i writings too) urges us to be mindful and grateful of that. God has given life to all of us, and He is nearer to us than our life-vein. so surely, to love and seek God comes the responsibility to appreciate and love others, to see that with God their lives are sacred and valued, and that if He wills, He can cause us to meet them in good ways, and make us as brothers (and sisters).
God willing, Booko, we can all do more of that seeing one another as signs of God's mercy. yeah, it's tough, and God has created us different from one another, and it's not easy. but there is hope for unity, for peace, and for friendship, where there is the will for such things.
Allahu Abha, Wahid. God is Most Glorious, and One.
God willing, Booko, we can all do more of that seeing one another as signs of God's mercy. yeah, it's tough, and God has created us different from one another, and it's not easy. but there is hope for unity, for peace, and for friendship, where there is the will for such things.
Allahu Abha, Wahid. God is Most Glorious, and One.
this is what ch. 7 v. 33 says: Say: the things that my Lord hath indeed forbidden
are:shameful deeds, whether open or secret;
sins and trespasses against truth or reason; assigning
of partners to Allah, for which He hath given no
authority; and saying things about Allah of which ye
have no knowledge.
ch.13 v.38: We did send messengers before thee, and appointed
for them wives and children:and it was never
the part of a messenger to bring a sign except as Allah
permitted (or commanded). For each period is
a Book (revealed).
look at the context of the verse or verses and qute the whole ayah, it's talking about the past prophets
are:shameful deeds, whether open or secret;
sins and trespasses against truth or reason; assigning
of partners to Allah, for which He hath given no
authority; and saying things about Allah of which ye
have no knowledge.
ch.13 v.38: We did send messengers before thee, and appointed
for them wives and children:and it was never
the part of a messenger to bring a sign except as Allah
permitted (or commanded). For each period is
a Book (revealed).
look at the context of the verse or verses and qute the whole ayah, it's talking about the past prophets
arthra
Baha'i
Ayani wrote above:
"...the similarities are many, and remarkable. and the Baha'is might well say that the Baha'i Faith is in some ways simply another manifestation of the One True Faith, surrender unto God and the enjoining of what is good. would that be accurate?"
This reminds me of some well know passages from the Baha'i Writings:
There can be no doubt whatever that the peoples of the world, of whatever race or religion, derive their inspiration from one heavenly Source, and are the subjects of one God.
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 217)
There is one God; mankind is one; the foundations of religion are one. Let us worship Him, and give praise for all His great Prophets and Messengers who have manifested His brightness and glory.
(Abdu'l-Baha, Abdu'l-Baha in London, p. 20)
Praise be to God, in this day the light of the Word of God has shone forth upon all regions, and from all sects, communities, nations, tribes, peoples, religions and denominations, souls have gathered under the shadow of the Word of Oneness and have in the most intimate fellowship united and harmonized!
(Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 296)
"...the similarities are many, and remarkable. and the Baha'is might well say that the Baha'i Faith is in some ways simply another manifestation of the One True Faith, surrender unto God and the enjoining of what is good. would that be accurate?"
This reminds me of some well know passages from the Baha'i Writings:
There can be no doubt whatever that the peoples of the world, of whatever race or religion, derive their inspiration from one heavenly Source, and are the subjects of one God.
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 217)
There is one God; mankind is one; the foundations of religion are one. Let us worship Him, and give praise for all His great Prophets and Messengers who have manifested His brightness and glory.
(Abdu'l-Baha, Abdu'l-Baha in London, p. 20)
Praise be to God, in this day the light of the Word of God has shone forth upon all regions, and from all sects, communities, nations, tribes, peoples, religions and denominations, souls have gathered under the shadow of the Word of Oneness and have in the most intimate fellowship united and harmonized!
(Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 296)