(Muslim debate) Worshiping God without intercession of Mohammad (s) will not be accepted.

[Link]

Consider the following scenarios:

(1) People who Worship other gods then God and seek their help by praying to them. This is obviously condemned in Quran.

(2)People who Worship only one God and not do seek intercession of anyone else, not even his chosen exalted ones in their approach to God. This is also condemned in Quran, but hypocrisy and people being immersed in love of Dunya has caused this to become largely unclear in minds of Muslims. This was the Worship of Iblis that lead him to disbelief and the son of Nuh who disobeyed Nuh and was drowned. It's unaccepted. I will talk more in detail as to why.

(3) People who Worship only God and seek intercession of people they have no proof for and who they don't know has been approved as a means of intercession. This is also condemned in Quran and also largely forgotten by those who attribute purity to who they wish to without proof from God. This overly done by Sufis where they raise to ranks whoever they wish with no proof from God to their status. The Quran says purity reputation and putting some in higher regards to it, is for God to do and no the people. It's for God to choose and not for the people.

(4)People who Worship only God and seek intercession of the chosen approved ones from God, with respect to him, and don't attribute higher status of purity to entities without proof from God. They seek who God has given the authority to intercede and guide and recognize their prayer with God is a source of peace and tranquility for those who they pray for. They also are chosen lights of our time with every soul and their omin-presence and listening is acknowledged for these holy souls only at this time.

To not get ugly, this thread I welcome anyone to debate, but my reason for raising this is I want to invite anyone to debate me about this in one on one section.

This will be from Quranic perspective as well as hadiths verifying those interpretations.

 

[Psalm23]

Consider the following scenarios:

(1) People who Worship other gods then God and seek their help by praying to them. This is obviously condemned in Quran.

(2)People who Worship only one God and not do seek intercession of anyone else, not even his chosen exalted ones in their approach to God. This is also condemned in Quran, but hypocrisy and people being immersed in love of Dunya has caused this to become largely unclear in minds of Muslims. This was the Worship of Iblis that lead him to disbelief and the son of Nuh who disobeyed Nuh and was drowned. It's unaccepted. I will talk more in detail as to why.

(3) People who Worship only God and seek intercession of people they have no proof for and who they don't know has been approved as a means of intercession. This is also condemned in Quran and also largely forgotten by those who attribute purity to who they wish to without proof from God. This overly done by Sufis where they raise to ranks whoever they wish with no proof from God to their status. The Quran says purity reputation and putting some in higher regards to it, is for God to do and no the people. It's for God to choose and not for the people.

(4)People who Worship only God and seek intercession of the chosen approved ones from God, with respect to him, and don't attribute higher status of purity to entities without proof from God. They seek who God has given the authority to intercede and guide and recognize their prayer with God is a source of peace and tranquility for those who they pray for. They also are chosen lights of our time with every soul and their omin-presence and listening is acknowledged for these holy souls only at this time.

To not get ugly, this thread I welcome anyone to debate, but my reason for raising this is I want to invite anyone to debate me about this in one on one section.

This will be from Quranic perspective as well as hadiths verifying those interpretations.

What would be considered proof for point number 4?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Consider the following scenarios:

(1) People who Worship other gods then God and seek their help by praying to them. This is obviously condemned in Quran.

(2)People who Worship only one God and not do seek intercession of anyone else, not even his chosen exalted ones in their approach to God. This is also condemned in Quran, but hypocrisy and people being immersed in love of Dunya has caused this to become largely unclear in minds of Muslims. This was the Worship of Iblis that lead him to disbelief and the son of Nuh who disobeyed Nuh and was drowned. It's unaccepted. I will talk more in detail as to why.

(3) People who Worship only God and seek intercession of people they have no proof for and who they don't know has been approved as a means of intercession. This is also condemned in Quran and also largely forgotten by those who attribute purity to who they wish to without proof from God. This overly done by Sufis where they raise to ranks whoever they wish with no proof from God to their status. The Quran says purity reputation and putting some in higher regards to it, is for God to do and no the people. It's for God to choose and not for the people.

(4)People who Worship only God and seek intercession of the chosen approved ones from God, with respect to him, and don't attribute higher status of purity to entities without proof from God. They seek who God has given the authority to intercede and guide and recognize their prayer with God is a source of peace and tranquility for those who they pray for. They also are chosen lights of our time with every soul and their omin-presence and listening is acknowledged for these holy souls only at this time.

To not get ugly, this thread I welcome anyone to debate, but my reason for raising this is I want to invite anyone to debate me about this in one on one section.

This will be from Quranic perspective as well as hadiths verifying those interpretations.

First question.
What do you mean by worshipping God?
Do you mean Regular Prayers and Fasting?

If so, why does God care who worships God? Why is it important for God to be worshipped to reward people for going to heaven? He feels happy and pleased when He is worshipped?

I think first answering these questions helps to answer if intercession of Muhammad matters.

 

[danieldemol]

@Link was this meant to be in same faith debates?

 

[Aupmanyav]

Yeah, Jesus is the door. One can go to father but only through Jesus.
Bahaollah: All these were nice people, but they are out-dated. Now, you need to follow 'ME' and 'ME ONLY'.

 

[Link]

@Link was this meant to be in same faith debates?

Ah yes, I put in the wrong section.

 

[Link]

Salam

This is from a Quranic perspective, God warning us of hypocrites mentions:

وَإِذَا قِيلَ لَهُمْ تَعَالَوْا يَسْتَغْفِرْ لَكُمْ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ لَوَّوْا رُءُوسَهُمْ وَرَأَيْتَهُمْ يَصُدُّونَ وَهُمْ مُسْتَكْبِرُونَ | When they are told, ‘Come, that Allah’s Messenger may plead for forgiveness for you,’ they twist their heads, and you see them turn away disdainfully. | Al-Munaafiqoon : 5

It's convenient now to make an excuse and say he is dead, so we can't seek his intercession and come to him that he asks forgiveness for us! I will deal with the dead issue later in the post.

وَمَا أَرْسَلْنَا مِنْ رَسُولٍ إِلَّا لِيُطَاعَ بِإِذْنِ اللَّهِ ۚ وَلَوْ أَنَّهُمْ إِذْ ظَلَمُوا أَنْفُسَهُمْ جَاءُوكَ فَاسْتَغْفَرُوا اللَّهَ وَاسْتَغْفَرَ لَهُمُ الرَّسُولُ لَوَجَدُوا اللَّهَ تَوَّابًا رَحِيمًا | We did not send any apostle but to be obeyed by Allah’s leave. Had they, when they wronged themselves, come to you and pleaded to Allah for forgiveness, and the Messenger had pleaded for them [to Allah]for forgiveness, they would have surely found Allah all-clement, all-merciful. | An-Nisaa : 64

وَمِنَ الْأَعْرَابِ مَنْ يُؤْمِنُ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ وَيَتَّخِذُ مَا يُنْفِقُ قُرُبَاتٍ عِنْدَ اللَّهِ وَصَلَوَاتِ الرَّسُولِ ۚ أَلَا إِنَّهَا قُرْبَةٌ لَهُمْ ۚ سَيُدْخِلُهُمُ اللَّهُ فِي رَحْمَتِهِ ۗ إِنَّ اللَّهَ غَفُورٌ رَحِيمٌ | Yet among the Bedouins are [also] those who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and regard what they spend as [a means of attaining] nearness to Allah and the blessings of the Messenger. Now, it shall indeed bring them nearness, and Allah will admit them into His mercy. Indeed Allah is all-forgiving, all-merciful. | At-Tawba : 99

خُذْ مِنْ أَمْوَالِهِمْ صَدَقَةً تُطَهِّرُهُمْ وَتُزَكِّيهِمْ بِهَا وَصَلِّ عَلَيْهِمْ ۖ إِنَّ صَلَاتَكَ سَكَنٌ لَهُمْ ۗ وَاللَّهُ سَمِيعٌ عَلِيمٌ | Take charity from their possessions to cleanse them and purify them thereby, and bless them. Indeed your blessing is a comfort to them, and Allah is all-hearing, all-knowing. | At-Tawba : 103


Now comes the issue, how does Rasool (s) hear us, the Quran talks about him as a witness to our deeds:

يَعْتَذِرُونَ إِلَيْكُمْ إِذَا رَجَعْتُمْ إِلَيْهِمْ ۚ قُلْ لَا تَعْتَذِرُوا لَنْ نُؤْمِنَ لَكُمْ قَدْ نَبَّأَنَا اللَّهُ مِنْ أَخْبَارِكُمْ ۚ وَسَيَرَى اللَّهُ عَمَلَكُمْ وَرَسُولُهُ ثُمَّ تُرَدُّونَ إِلَىٰ عَالِمِ الْغَيْبِ وَالشَّهَادَةِ فَيُنَبِّئُكُمْ بِمَا كُنْتُمْ تَعْمَلُونَ | They will offer you excuses when you return to them. Say, ‘Do not make excuses; we will never believe you. Allah has informed us of your state of affairs. Allah and His Messenger will observe your conduct, then you will be returned to the Knower of the sensible and the Unseen, and He will inform you concerning what you used to do.’ | At-Tawba : 94

Now the issue comes, did this role stop after his death?

The Quran through a series of verses:

فَإِنْ كُنْتَ فِي شَكٍّ مِمَّا أَنْزَلْنَا إِلَيْكَ فَاسْأَلِ الَّذِينَ يَقْرَءُونَ الْكِتَابَ مِنْ قَبْلِكَ ۚ لَقَدْ جَاءَكَ الْحَقُّ مِنْ رَبِّكَ فَلَا تَكُونَنَّ مِنَ الْمُمْتَرِينَ | So if you are in doubt about what We have sent down to you, ask those who recite the Book [revealed] before you. The truth has certainly come to you from your Lord; so do not be among the skeptics. | Yunus : 94

Those who recite the book we will see are not ahlul-Kitab but the Messengers, the Quran also says:

وَاسْأَلْ مَنْ أَرْسَلْنَا مِنْ قَبْلِكَ مِنْ رُسُلِنَا أَجَعَلْنَا مِنْ دُونِ الرَّحْمَٰنِ آلِهَةً يُعْبَدُونَ | Ask those of Our Messengers We have sent before you: Did We set up any gods to be worshipped besides the All-beneficent? | Az-Zukhruf : 45

This is important, because it says he can ask of the Messengers God sent, and it's particularly Musa and his successors, and the proof of that is, if Mohammad (s) was ignorant, he would be required to seek the family of the reminder in terms of miracles and clarification:

وَمَا أَرْسَلْنَا قَبْلَكَ إِلَّا رِجَالًا نُوحِي إِلَيْهِمْ ۖ فَاسْأَلُوا أَهْلَ الذِّكْرِ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ لَا تَعْلَمُونَ | We did not send [any apostles] before you except as men to whom We revealed therefore Ask the family of the Reminder if you do not know. | Al-Anbiyaa : 7


The ask Messengers before you shows if Mohammad (s) was in doubt of Tawhid, he can simply get in contact and know the Messengers before him, this is rhetorical, saying Messengers of the past would all confirm tawhid, and not just that, but people if they get contact spiritually with Messengers, they would lead them to the current Guides of the times and confirm Mohammad (s).

The family of the reminder is Mohammad's (s) family, but if it wasn't him who was the last reminder of the time, and him and his people were ignorant, Quran is saying then in this case, they would be required to seek the family of the reminder which would be Moses and Aaron and their holy family. If it was wrong to talk to the Messengers of the past, the rhetorical command would not make sense.

More is to be said, the Quran talking of the sky reality:


وَإِنْ كَانَ كَبُرَ عَلَيْكَ إِعْرَاضُهُمْ فَإِنِ اسْتَطَعْتَ أَنْ تَبْتَغِيَ نَفَقًا فِي الْأَرْضِ أَوْ سُلَّمًا فِي السَّمَاءِ فَتَأْتِيَهُمْ بِآيَةٍ ۚ وَلَوْ شَاءَ اللَّهُ لَجَمَعَهُمْ عَلَى الْهُدَىٰ ۚ فَلَا تَكُونَنَّ مِنَ الْجَاهِلِينَ | And should their aversion be hard on you, find, if you can, a tunnel into the ground, or a ladder into sky, that you may bring them a sign. Had Allah wished, He would have brought them together on guidance. So do not be one of the ignorant. | Al-An'aam : 35


This shows if Mohammad (s) can connect people to this reality, he would, but it's not his fault people turn away.

Surah Hijr expands on why he doesn't connect them:

وَلَوْ فَتَحْنَا عَلَيْهِمْ بَابًا مِنَ السَّمَاءِ فَظَلُّوا فِيهِ يَعْرُجُونَ | Were We to open for them a gate of the sky, so that they could go on ascending through it, | Al-Hijr : 14

لَقَالُوا إِنَّمَا سُكِّرَتْ أَبْصَارُنَا بَلْ نَحْنُ قَوْمٌ مَسْحُورُونَ | they would surely say, ‘Indeed a spell has been cast on our eyes; indeed, we are a bewitched lot.’ | Al-Hijr : 15

وَلَقَدْ جَعَلْنَا فِي السَّمَاءِ بُرُوجًا وَزَيَّنَّاهَا لِلنَّاظِرِينَ | Certainly We have made mansions in the sky and adorned them for the onlookers, | Al-Hijr : 16

وَحَفِظْنَاهَا مِنْ كُلِّ شَيْطَانٍ رَجِيمٍ | and We have guarded it from every outcast Satan, | Al-Hijr : 17

إِلَّا مَنِ اسْتَرَقَ السَّمْعَ فَأَتْبَعَهُ شِهَابٌ مُبِينٌ | except someone who may eavesdrop, whereat there pursues him a manifest flame. | Al-Hijr : 18


There are many verses that show the position of the great stars in the sky in this world. This means they are spiritually connected and meant to be seen.

The parable of light also describes the light to be found in houses God permitted to be risen and his name remembered in, and these are the households chosen of the past till now.

Likewise, the Ahlulbayt of Ayub (a) was with him in moments of trial and the likes of them also with him (past Ahlulbayts).

 

[Link]

I will share more verses about intercession in general.

 

[RAYYAN]

Consider the following scenarios:
(2)People who Worship only one God and not do seek intercession of anyone else, not even his chosen exalted ones in their approach to God. This is also condemned in Quran, but hypocrisy and people being immersed in love of Dunya has caused this to become largely unclear in minds of Muslims. This was the Worship of Iblis that lead him to disbelief and the son of Nuh who disobeyed Nuh and was drowned. It's unaccepted. I will talk more in detail as to why.

I want to understand more here
Those who worship God without the intercession of prophets, how were they introduced to God in the first place?

 

[VoidCat]

@Link was this meant to be in same faith debates?

Ah yes, I put in the wrong section.

Imma tag a mod then see if they'll be willing to get it moved or not.
@JustGeorge I see you are online

 

[Link]

I want to understand more here
Those who worship God without the intercession of prophets, how were they introduced to God in the first place?

Good point.

Those who we attach ourselves to, become our source of energy and blessings. If we attach ourselves to Shayateen (devils) in form of humans and Jinn, we will incline to the cursed tree and become filled with their energy which is fast crack type energy that is temporary and quick in pleasure and power, but disappears in the next world. The devils are creatures who think they need to guide humans and think they themselves are guided while they rebel against the guardian human king on earth. The inward world is such that everything is found in everything, and we are more closer to those we know and are familiar and those who we attach ourselves to, but the best way to guard is to enter asylum of God.

Ahlulbayt (a) carry the truth and guide by it.

In Islam, it's about disconnecting from what disconnects us from God and connecting to what connects us to God. The fastest and firmest connection to God, is Mohammad (s) and his family (a).

Salawat is such that Mohammad (s) receives blessings from God but he sends some our way. If we bless him, he will receive from God and radiate some blessings as much as possible to our hearts. And this constant connection of everything blessing Mohammad (s) and he radiate light and blessings back is the reality of the path.

Loving Mohammad (s) and his family (a) takes a firmness, a resolution, and a guarding patiently, that is to make them our vision by which we see, takes resolution and patience.

Loving them, we can kick out devils influence slowly from our hearts. When we are attacked by Shayateen, remembering Mohammad (s) and Ali (A) and Fatima (a) and there pure chosen offspring (a), is a sure way to guard and attack back.

Ahlulbayt (a) will help our inward sword as well, and help us radiate reality to others. Together, believers mirror the light from whatever capacity they can.

Their nature of authority of Ulil-Amr is not their body, but their light. The Imam is the light of the time and connects us to their light as well.

"And thus we revealed a spirit from our command, you did not know the book nor the faith but rather we made it a light by which we guide who we wish from our servants and surely you guide to a straight path" (2nd last verse of Surah 42)


Asking and talking to Ahlulbayt (a), you become aware of their light, and when you telepathically link to them, they guide you and show you wonderous things.

 

[Link]

Imma tag a mod then see if they'll be willing to get it moved or not.
@JustGeorge I see you are online

Thank you!

 

[JustGeorge]

**Moved to Same Faith Debates by Author Request**​

 

[Link]

**Moved to Same Faith Debates by Author Request**​

Thank you.

 

[RAYYAN]

Good point.

Those who we attach ourselves to, become our source of energy and blessings. If we attach ourselves to Shayateen (devils) in form of humans and Jinn, we will incline to the cursed tree and become filled with their energy which is fast crack type energy that is temporary and quick in pleasure and power, but disappears in the next world. The devils are creatures who think they need to guide humans and think they themselves are guided while they rebel against the guardian human king on earth. The inward world is such that everything is found in everything, and we are more closer to those we know and are familiar and those who we attach ourselves to, but the best way to guard is to enter asylum of God.

Ahlulbayt (a) carry the truth and guide by it.

In Islam, it's about disconnecting from what disconnects us from God and connecting to what connects us to God. The fastest and firmest connection to God, is Mohammad (s) and his family (a).

Salawat is such that Mohammad (s) receives blessings from God but he sends some our way. If we bless him, he will receive from God and radiate some blessings as much as possible to our hearts. And this constant connection of everything blessing Mohammad (s) and he radiate light and blessings back is the reality of the path.

Loving Mohammad (s) and his family (a) takes a firmness, a resolution, and a guarding patiently, that is to make them our vision by which we see, takes resolution and patience.

Loving them, we can kick out devils influence slowly from our hearts. When we are attacked by Shayateen, remembering Mohammad (s) and Ali (A) and Fatima (a) and there pure chosen offspring (a), is a sure way to guard and attack back.

Ahlulbayt (a) will help our inward sword as well, and help us radiate reality to others. Together, believers mirror the light from whatever capacity they can.

Their nature of authority of Ulil-Amr is not their body, but their light. The Imam is the light of the time and connects us to their light as well.

"And thus we revealed a spirit from our command, you did not know the book nor the faith but rather we made it a light by which we guide who we wish from our servants and surely you guide to a straight path" (2nd last verse of Surah 42)


Asking and talking to Ahlulbayt (a), you become aware of their light, and when you telepathically link to them, they guide you and show you wonderous things.

Thank you for the response, but, still, you didn't answer my question
Without the prophets, how those people who believe in God were introduced to God in the first place?

 

[Link]

Thank you for the response, but, still, you didn't answer my question
Without the prophets, how those people who believe in God were introduced to God in the first place?

Salam

They aren't introduced to God, they are introduced to "formal belief" which means nothing, they are disconnected. Like Quran shows hypocrites, are disconnected from God and his Messengers. They might deceive themselves they believe in God's signs.

Intercession of God's chosen on the path, needs recognition and us allowing their light into our souls. Those who disbelieve in the unseen signs but hold to the outward Islam, are not believers, they are hypocrites.

The outward ritual has an inward discipline and reality. For Salah to truly connect you, you have to believe in the connecting firm handhold of God.

 

[RAYYAN]

Salam

They aren't introduced to God, they are introduced to "formal belief" which means nothing, they are disconnected. Like Quran shows hypocrites, are disconnected from God and his Messengers. They might deceive themselves they believe in God's signs.

Intercession of God's chosen on the path, needs recognition and us allowing their light into our souls. Those who disbelieve in the unseen signs but hold to the outward Islam, are not believers, they are hypocrites.

The outward ritual has an inward discipline and reality. For Salah to truly connect you, you have to believe in the connecting firm handhold of God.

Link,
I am sorry. You are writing a lot of words, but not really saying anything.
Without the prophets, how do you know what God wants you to do? How do you know how to pray?,.....etc.

Let me give you an example;
Let's take abortion, is it right or wrong?
Someone might see it right and another might see it wrong
What makes you right and the other person wrong?

Hope you give a clear answer and not just words that I don't understand

One more question: Do you believe in the Quran?

 

[Link]

Salam

It's through light in words revealed from God + explanation and Sunnah of Messengers + light from God with us and inside our souls.

Tawhid can be understood as counting God as one or you can understand it truly as that God is one such that he misses nothing in absence. The words "God is One", doesn't mean the person perceives tawhid. The arguments in Quran + explanation of his Messengers + seeing in the heart and mind through God's face and light, makes you perceive tawhid.

 

[RAYYAN]

Link
You are not giving straight answers. I can't understand this essay type of answers
Thank you, but I will leave it there.
If you decide to answer my question.....
Do you believe in the Quran?

 

[Link]

Link
You are not giving straight answers. I can't understand this essay type of answers
Thank you, but I will leave it there.
If you decide to answer my question.....
Do you believe in the Quran?

I believe in Quran.