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Muslim Disloyalty to America

The Specter of Muslim Disloyalty in America :: Middle East Forum

Islamist enmity for infidels, regularly manifested in the jihad, is by now moderately well known. This dichotomy of loyalty to Muslims and enmity for infidels — which, incidentally, corresponds well with Islamic law's division of the world into the abode of war (deserving of enmity) and the abode of Islam (deserving of loyalty) — is founded on a Muslim doctrine called wala' wa bara' (best translated as "loyalty and enmity"). I first encountered this doctrine while translating various Arabic documents for The Al Qaeda Reader. In fact, the longest and arguably most revealing document I included in that volume is titled "Loyalty and Enmity" (pgs.63-115), compiled by Aymen Zawahiri, al-Qaeda's number two.


I say "compiled" because most of the words are direct quotes from the Koran, the Muslim prophet Muhammad, and Islam's jurists. Those interested are urged to read the whole treatise. For our purposes, however, a few key scriptures must suffice:

Koran 5:51 warns Muslims against "taking the Jews and Christians as friends and allies". According to authoritative Muslim exegete, al-Tabari, Koran 5:51 means that the Muslim who "allies with non-Muslims...is an infidel." Similar scriptures include Koran 3:28, 4:89, 4:144, 5:54, 6:40, 9:23, and 58:22; the latter simply states that true Muslims do not befriend non-Muslims — "even if they be their fathers, sons, brothers, or kin." Conversely, according to Muhammad, "A Muslim is the brother of a Muslim. He neither oppresses him nor humiliates him nor looks down upon him…. All things of a Muslim are inviolable for his brother in faith: his blood, his wealth, and his honor" — precisely those three things Islamic law singles out as not being vouchsafed to free infidels.

These scriptures are not mere words; American Muslims act on them. Nasser Abdo, an infantryman assigned to the 101st Airborne Division, who refuses to deploy to Afghanistan: "I don't believe I can involve myself in an army that wages war against Muslims. I don't believe I could sleep at night if I take part, in any way, in the killing of a Muslim." And why is that? "Abdo cited Islamic scholars and verses from the Quran as reasons for his decision to ask for separation from the Army." Indeed, his loyalty to foreign Afghani Muslims is such that, if he does not get discharged, "he will, apparently, be facing a prison sentence."

Rather than going quietly to prison, major Nidal Hasan went on the infamous Fort Hood killing spree, slaying thirteen Americans. Maintaining that "Muslims shouldn't kill Muslims," he was, like Abdo, adamant about not being deployed to a Muslim nation. He was also "very upfront about being a Muslim first and an American second," thereby showing where his true loyalty lay. Tabari's words come to mind: the Muslim who "allies with them [e.g., Americans] and enables them against the believers, that same one is a member of their faith and community," i.e., he too becomes an infidel.

And of course there was sergeant Hasan Akbar, who was convicted of murder for killing two American soldiers and wounding fourteen in a grenade attack in Kuwait: "He launched the attack because he was concerned U.S. troops would kill fellow Muslims in Iraq." Previous to the attack, he confessed to his diary: "I may not have killed any Muslims, but being in the army is the same thing. I may have to make a choice very soon on who to kill."

Nor is Muslim loyalty simply limited to the fear of killing fellow Muslims; rather, it is loyalty in the tribal sense. Thus, for helping convict five Muslims who were plotting to kill American soldiers in the Fort Dix terrorism trial, Mahmoud Omar has been ostracized by the Muslim community. Why? Because "in a twisted way…their [the terrorists'] actions are understandable in the Muslim community." Omar adds, "For Muslims, we are all brothers, and I betrayed a brother"— echoing Muhammad's injunction: "A Muslim is the brother of a Muslim."

Prominent American Muslim jurists have further proclaimed that "It is forbidden to work for the FBI or for U.S. security services because these harm Muslims." Another Muslim jurist said it is permissible for Muslims to serve in the U.S. military — provided they are not "involved in fighting, harming, or even bothering Muslims at all." Similarly, the authoritative Assembly of Muslim Jurists of America issued a fatwa stating that it is "not permissible" for American Muslims to send aid, even food, to American troops serving in Muslim countries.

At this point, one may justly ask: if Muslim disloyalty to non-Muslims is a ubiquitous phenomenon, why are most examples limited to the military? Simple: Islam is primarily concerned with actual deeds; and the military is one of those rare institutions that requires people to demonstrate their loyalty through action, such as, by going to the frontlines and, if need be, combating America's enemies — even if they be one's coreligionists. It is therefore only natural that Muslim loyalty/disloyalty is primarily revealed in military related scenarios, including instrumental support via food or other aid. Concerning this latter, Muhammad said, "One [Muslim] who equips a person on his way to raid [the enemy's camps] in Allah's path [jihad] is considered to have the same status as the raider [jihadist]." The willing Muslim financial enabler of the infidel American soldier thus acquires the same infidel status.

As for all other instances that require Muslims to indicate their loyalty, the doctrine of taqiyya, which revolves around deceiving non-Muslims, offers relief, and is in fact essential for Muslim minorities living in America who want to uphold the doctrine of loyalty and enmity. Indeed, the Koran's primary justification for deception is in the context of loyalty: "Let believers not take for friends and allies infidels [non-Muslims] instead of believers. Whoever does this shall have no relationship left with Allah — unless you but guard yourselves against them, taking precautions" (Koran 3:28). Tabari explains this verse: "Only when you are in their [non-Muslims'] power, fearing for yourselves, are you to demonstrate friendship for them with your tongues, while harboring hostility toward them. But do not join them in the particulars of their infidelities, and do not aid them through any action against a Muslim."

In other words, when necessary, Muslims are permitted to feign friendship and loyalty to non-Muslims, or, in the words of Abu Darda, a pious companion of Muhammad, "We smile in the face of some people although our hearts curse them." Nearly fourteen-hundred years after these faithless words were uttered, American Muslim Tarik Shah, who was arrested for terrorist-related charges, echoed them in boast: "I could be joking and smiling [with infidels] and then cutting their throats in the next second."At any rate, such is the symbiotic relationship that Islam's doctrines share: when the deceit, the charade is to no avail and the lives of fellow Muslims, whom are deserving of loyalty, become endangered, Muslims must then stand their ground, come what may. Thus an Akbar, Hasan, or Abdo may appear as perfectly loyal American citizens, until being required to prove their loyalty against Muslims. As Zawahiri puts it in his treatise, the Muslim may pretend, so long as he does "not undertake any initiative to support them [non-Muslims], commit sin, or enable [them] through any deed or killing or fighting against Muslims" (The Al Qaeda Reader, p.75).
We need to address the fact that many Muslims put Islam above American ideals and Islamic interests above the interests of others. Muslims will of course call this "mean-spirited" or "craven" but such contemptuous name-calling has passed far beyond the stage of being infantile but harmless. Why? As you ponder the answer to that question, consider that the last time I told Islamic supporters that as Americans they should put the interests of Americans, whether they're atheist, gay, black, Hispanic, etc. first, they told me flatly "**** you and your freedom". Why do I bring that up? Because by studying its repression of ideas in its extreme, unambiguous form one may more clearly understand why I have no set opinion as to whether or not Islam is completely unperturbed by stubborn, incoherent spongers egging on negative externalities in the form of evasion, collusion, and corruption.
 

Bismillah

Submit
We need to address the fact that infinitely more Christians put Christian above American ideals and Christian interests.

Christians will of course call this "mean-spirited" or "craven" but such contemptuous name-calling has passed far beyond the stage of being infantile but harmless. Why? As you ponder the answer to that question, consider that the last time I told Christian supporters that as Americans they should put the interests of Americans, whether they're atheist, gay, black, Hispanic, etc. first, they told me flatly "**** you and your freedom". Why do I bring that up? Because by studying its repression of ideas in its extreme, unambiguous form one may more clearly understand why I have no set opinion as to whether or not Islam is completely unperturbed by stubborn, incoherent spongers egging on negative externalities in the form of evasion, collusion, and corruption.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
Click on the report icon
report.gif
and you can talk to a mod that way and ask them to move it.
 

sandandfoam

Veteran Member
Republicans put their interests before American interests, Democrats put democratic interests before America. Both put corporate interests before America.

It's all going to be academic when China is the #1 bogeyman for the paranoid in the unites states of the terrified. Arming religious nutters will seem as good an idea as when the soviets were around.

It's American paranoia and xenophobia that increasingly terrifies me. I read this week that Reagans son is asserting that Reagan had Alzheimers while President.

Luckily I'm an optimist. Otherwise I'd be awake at night with the land of the free on my mind.
 

ninerbuff

godless wonder
We need to address the fact that infinitely more Christians put Christian above American ideals and Christian interests.

Christians will of course call this "mean-spirited" or "craven" but such contemptuous name-calling has passed far beyond the stage of being infantile but harmless. Why? As you ponder the answer to that question, consider that the last time I told Christian supporters that as Americans they should put the interests of Americans, whether they're atheist, gay, black, Hispanic, etc. first, they told me flatly "**** you and your freedom". Why do I bring that up? Because by studying its repression of ideas in its extreme, unambiguous form one may more clearly understand why I have no set opinion as to whether or not Islam is completely unperturbed by stubborn, incoherent spongers egging on negative externalities in the form of evasion, collusion, and corruption.
Touche'
 

gnomon

Well-Known Member
ppɐʇɹnɯ;2321741 said:
The Specter of Muslim Disloyalty in America :: Middle East Forum

We need to address the fact that many Muslims put Islam above American ideals and Islamic interests above the interests of others. Muslims will of course call this "mean-spirited" or "craven" but such contemptuous name-calling has passed far beyond the stage of being infantile but harmless. Why? As you ponder the answer to that question, consider that the last time I told Islamic supporters that as Americans they should put the interests of Americans, whether they're atheist, gay, black, Hispanic, etc. first, they told me flatly "**** you and your freedom". Why do I bring that up? Because by studying its repression of ideas in its extreme, unambiguous form one may more clearly understand why I have no set opinion as to whether or not Islam is completely unperturbed by stubborn, incoherent spongers egging on negative externalities in the form of evasion, collusion, and corruption.

So............you're telling me Muslims in America don't watch the Atlanta Braves on TBS?
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
ppɐʇɹnɯ;2321741 said:
The Specter of Muslim Disloyalty in America :: Middle East Forum

We need to address the fact that many Muslims put Islam above American ideals and Islamic interests above the interests of others. Muslims will of course call this "mean-spirited" or "craven" but such contemptuous name-calling has passed far beyond the stage of being infantile but harmless. Why? As you ponder the answer to that question, consider that the last time I told Islamic supporters that as Americans they should put the interests of Americans, whether they're atheist, gay, black, Hispanic, etc. first, they told me flatly "**** you and your freedom". Why do I bring that up? Because by studying its repression of ideas in its extreme, unambiguous form one may more clearly understand why I have no set opinion as to whether or not Islam is completely unperturbed by stubborn, incoherent spongers egging on negative externalities in the form of evasion, collusion, and corruption.

In the first place, American Muslims have demonstrated themselves to be loyal citizens both before and after 9/11. And that, despite being provoked by the FBI.

In the second place, I'm curious what your motives are in attempting to drive a wedge between Muslim Americans and the rest of us Americans?
 
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dust1n

Zindīq
ppɐʇɹnɯ;2321741 said:
The Specter of Muslim Disloyalty in America :: Middle East Forum

We need to address the fact that many Muslims put Islam above American ideals and Islamic interests above the interests of others. Muslims will of course call this "mean-spirited" or "craven" but such contemptuous name-calling has passed far beyond the stage of being infantile but harmless. Why? As you ponder the answer to that question, consider that the last time I told Islamic supporters that as Americans they should put the interests of Americans, whether they're atheist, gay, black, Hispanic, etc. first, they told me flatly "**** you and your freedom". Why do I bring that up? Because by studying its repression of ideas in its extreme, unambiguous form one may more clearly understand why I have no set opinion as to whether or not Islam is completely unperturbed by stubborn, incoherent spongers egging on negative externalities in the form of evasion, collusion, and corruption.

Seems a little exaggerated. Someone took the few examples and overexerts them.
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
Dagnabbit.

I clicked on the wrong thread.

The real disloyal Americans are the liars that started the war in Iraq and the theives who destroyed our economy.

They harmed exponentionally more Americans than those who suffered in 9/11.
 
We need to address the fact that infinitely more Christians put Christian above American ideals and Christian interests.

Christians will of course call this "mean-spirited" or "craven" but such contemptuous name-calling has passed far beyond the stage of being infantile but harmless. Why? As you ponder the answer to that question, consider that the last time I told Christian supporters that as Americans they should put the interests of Americans, whether they're atheist, gay, black, Hispanic, etc. first, they told me flatly "**** you and your freedom". Why do I bring that up? Because by studying its repression of ideas in its extreme, unambiguous form one may more clearly understand why I have no set opinion as to whether or not Islam is completely unperturbed by stubborn, incoherent spongers egging on negative externalities in the form of evasion, collusion, and corruption.

Sure you have disloyal Christians too. You might have disloyal Chinese, Germans, Russians, etc. But we are talking about Islamic disloyalty.

Start with Taqiyya for instance:

Islam Watch - Understanding Taqiyya• Islamic Principle of Lying for the Sake of Allah by Warner MacKenzie
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/011-taqiyya.htm
Fitzgerald: Islam for Infidels, Part One - Jihad Watch

Then kitman:
Taqiyya and Kitman: The role of Deception in Islamic Terrorism :: Reader comments at Daniel Pipes

As a former Muslim, I can confirm that everything in these links is fully accurate.
 

Bismillah

Submit
1. To back up your disproportiante claim without realizing that every single American puts their own interests first, including secular causes, you link me to jihad watch.

Nice.

2. There is no word of Taqiyya in Sunni Islam. I've looked it up in various books and sorry to say, it doesn't exist. There is a practice associated with it in Shia Islam, of which lacking knowlege I cannot comment on.

Furthermore the word that most closely resembles the practice of Taqiyya allows Muslims to conceal their faith if their lives are endangered.

Clearly you have stumbled onto something great.

3. As you are a self claiming former Muslims on the internet on a religious forum who has taken to singling out Islam I'll take that claim seriously.
 
2. There is no word of Taqiyya in Sunni Islam. I've looked it up in various books and sorry to say, it doesn't exist. There is a practice associated with it in Shia Islam, of which lacking knowlege I cannot comment on.

No, it is used in Sunni Islam. I was a Sunni Muslim and we were told that it's okay to hurt (lie to, cheat, or physically harm) non-believers, as long as it doesn't hurt Islamic interests. Also we were taught to deny the negative facts about Islam such as taqiyya. Ironic, since we were using taqiyya in the process of denying taqiyya.

Sunni Muslims and Taqiyyah: Exposing One Muslim’s Blatant Distortions of the Facts

Islam’s doctrines of deception (Raymond Ibrahim on taqiyya) « Creeping Sharia
 

McBell

Unbound
ppɐʇɹnɯ;2323122 said:
As a former Muslim, I can confirm that everything in these links is fully accurate.
And what have you say to those Muslims and ex-Muslims who say that those links are nothing more than radical extremist propaganda?
 

Bismillah

Submit
No, it is used in Sunni Islam. I was a Sunni Muslim and we were told that it's okay to hurt (lie to, cheat, or physically harm) non-believers, as long as it doesn't hurt Islamic interests. Also we were taught to deny the negative facts about Islam such as taqiyya. Ironic, since we were using taqiyya in the process of denying taqiyya.

Ok discounting the fact that it is completely ignored in the various volumes I have regarding Seerah, Sharia, the Prophet's Hadith, why don't you type it in google and look at wikipedia champ.
 

A-ManESL

Well-Known Member
ppɐʇɹnɯ;2323622 said:
No, it is used in Sunni Islam. I was a Sunni Muslim and we were told that it's okay to hurt (lie to, cheat, or physically harm) non-believers, as long as it doesn't hurt Islamic interests. Also we were taught to deny the negative facts about Islam such as taqiyya. Ironic, since we were using taqiyya in the process of denying taqiyya.

To say this is part of Islam on a general scale is nonsense. And I reject this view you hold of Islam as deceptive. If you are a former Muslim then you were a Muslim with an incorrect understanding of Islam.

Regards
 
And what have you say to those Muslims and ex-Muslims who say that those links are nothing more than radical extremist propaganda?
Naturally they would say it is "extremist". If they are a little less intelligent, then it is only because they have been conditioned & brainwashed to the point of viewing everything thru tunnel vision. It's like Plato's allegory of the Cave, i.e. some people have been conditioned to believe a certain way, and if someone tells them the way it really is, they go beserk.

Of course the smarter people who do know the real deal and try to cover it up. Their defense mechanisms start going into overdrive due to cognitive dissonance. So they lash out. They blame people for lying or being extremists when in fact they are the liars, fabricating extremist propaganda to suit their own interests.

Abibi said:
why don't you type it in google and look at wikipedia champ.
I already have, and I posted numerous links. Links which provide an objective view of Taqiyya and its role in all forms of Islam (don't you always say there's only "one" Islam anyways?). Nothing is preventing you from clicking on them except perhaps your narrowmindedness.

And I reject this view you hold of Islam as deceptive. If you are a former Muslim then you were a Muslim with an incorrect understanding of Islam.
There is nothing deceptive about exposing Islamic deception. And I am a former Muslim because I am someone who actually understands what Islam "is".
 
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Badran

Veteran Member
Premium Member
ppɐʇɹnɯ;2324011 said:
Naturally they would say it is "extremist". If they are a little less intelligent, then it is only because they have been conditioned & brainwashed to the point of viewing everything thru tunnel vision. It's like Plato's allegory of the Cave, i.e. some people have been conditioned to believe a certain way, and if someone tells them the way it really is, they go beserk.

Of course the smarter people who do know the real deal and try to cover it up. Their defense mechanisms start going into overdrive due to cognitive dissonance. So they lash out. They blame people for lying or being extremists when in fact they are the liars, fabricating extremist propaganda to suit their own interests.

You're a really special guy, you really are, so are your claims. Just please answer a couple of questions i have, because you didn't respond to me when i asked them in other threads. You might've answered them already in the numerous links you posted, but honestly i didn't read them, because i've been linked to them before by other posters who have been spouting the same idea. So if you can bare with me i'll really appreciate it.

What are your sources from within the Quran, or Hadiths that support your claims?

Are you saying that literally all or most Muslims share the attributes you're suggesting?

Do you realize what would've happened if 1.5 billion people acted and thought the way you're suggesting?

ppɐʇɹnɯ;2324011 said:
I already have, and I posted numerous links. Links which provide an objective view of Taqiyya and its role in all forms of Islam

You can't be serious. Sites called "Islamwatch", "creepingsharia" and another sarcastically calling it "thereligionofpeace" are objective sources? Or the other one which has the title "Exposing One Muslim’s Blatant Distortions of the Facts"?
 
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