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Muslim groups in UK are calling for a separate student loan system

Bismillah

Submit
Well, seeing as the thread is about Islam - my response it going to be about Islam. Staying on topic in a thread should not imply that one is against that group.
Like I said
You realize this is about a private business catering to a demographic.
So why is it that you insist on sticking your nose where it doesn't belong, it is up to the practices of private banks. If you disagree with the practice don't set up a loan that is Shariah compliant, if you prefer the new system then do.
Well, seeing as the thread is about Islam - my response it going to be about Islam. Staying on topic in a thread should not imply that one is against that group.
And? What you are asking for is that no business should cater to a specific demographic. That is unethical.
I have a grudge against religious slaughter in general.
Really? Bypassing the entire slaughter debate, in New Zealand animals are unconscious once slaughtered according to religious rite. So given that scenario are you against kosher hotdogs?
 

Nerthus

Wanderlust
So why is it that you insist on sticking your nose where it doesn't belong,

Because I am entitled to have an opinion on such issues.

I could say the same to many people on this forum regarding other issues, but I don't people people have a right to express their opinion.


Really? Bypassing the entire slaughter debate, in New Zealand animals are unconscious once slaughtered according to religious rite. So given that scenario are you against kosher hotdogs?

So, you're just trying to find out if I am against any other religion?!

I am vegetarian, I am against the slaughter of animals - be in for whatever faith.
 

Starsoul

Truth
So would you rather they asked for their ideals to be forced on everybody then, so that they're not separate?
Or do you think they should just shut the hell up and do things like you do (regardless of their own morals, ethics and standards etc...)?
Is this another way of saying that you're usually very tolerant, but for some reason you're not so with Muslims?
Sure, you respect everyone's right to believe what they want, but as soon as they want to live according to these beliefs you're annoyed.

Some questions I don't really see being answered very Honestly.

@ Nerthus

It's not about living towards those beliefs - they don't like the way the student loan is - then fine, don't get one.
I have to pay back so much on my loan, why should I have to, yet another persons religious beliefs gets them out of it?
I sense a bit of lack of compassion in your statement, it seems to say that muslim shouldn't get an education at all even if they can manage to somehow adjust their educational needs in line with their beliefs. Why such bias?

But I do get your second part of the statement, why should you have to pay interest, thats a good question, but then, why do you pay interest? If you think paying interest is a burdening load, why do you get an education?

One could say that, hey you shouldn't get an education either because of the fear of being indebted for long, why direct your bias towards muslims when it is actually the interest system that you should be questioning?

Why in the last many decades non-muslims have not ever objected to the interest rates/loan/debt system and a highly debt infused life style if it is so bothersome? And all of a sudden then, feel all agitated when somebody else demands an interest free education.

Why don't you demand an interest free loan as well? Who or what is stopping you? Instead of thinking of a solid solution to this issue, why direct your energy against the plausible solution? You should be happy that you are paying interest since you are a law abiding citizen, but it seems that you are not happy about it, why? Either you believe that giving interest is good for you, or you believe that its bad, looks like you are refraining to choose either.

In layman terms, Anyone who reads the financial economical systems in the world should know how interest is a tool of continuously extracting money from the pockets of the working class, and fattening the wealth of the bank owners/the wealthy and etc. The Education industry in Uk alone stands over a staggering 12 billion Pounds annually, moving to an increase even after the economic crunch. It is a money minting business, why should education be so expensive, and why must international students be paying a large chunk of that revenue.

The economic value of international students is gargantuan. According to the Institute of International Education, the annual value of the US economy is estimated to be $20 billion and close to £12 billion for the UK. At $18 billion, international education is Australia’s third highest export and in Canada it is estimated to be $7.5 billion. With high economic stakes, international education is becoming competitive economics.

http://expressbuzz.com/opinion/op-ed/foreign-universities-are-not-the-answer/303962.html
 

Bismillah

Submit
Because I am entitled to have an opinion on such issues.
So, you're just trying to find out if I am against any other religion?!
No what I am trying to figure out is why you are against the very fundamental concept of private businesses catering to a demographic? Even if it does not hurt you and is not discriminatory in any way, but instead provides an alternative that coincides with someone else's ethical code?
 

darkendless

Guardian of Asgaard

Someone gets screwed to cater for religious beliefs in order to "try" and account for market inflation etc. Said it before.


Not sure what you mean. If this is to support your point about this being a religious based need, then of course there is no point in addressing this since i never claimed that it wasn't.
Thats the problem.

Not really sure, i neither live in Britain or know any Muslims there. However it could be for many number of reasons.

Any form of religious reason is a pretty average reason at best. Why change what works and applying a religious need to everyone? With the associated financial issues it seems rediculous to even consider.


Well, you don't need to worry. I'm not saying countries are supposed to please minorities unconditionally or not assess each demand or call made.

It annoys me that minorities make demands. Why are they in a position to make them. Could UK citizens make a demand that they take things the way they are? If majorities catered for everyone we'd have a huge mess and thats the way it seems to be heading.


For a reason that astonishingly seems to keep escaping you: Because it contradicts their personal ethics/standards which are sometimes based on religion. And when their need does not cause problems, if they don't get it they would be indeed "having it bad". (Not talking about any particular country, just in concept)

It will cause student loan chaos. How the hell would you go about explaining this sort of thing to non-muslims? What if non-muslims do not accept the terms? What if the market drops and because they have made a contract at a fixed addition for interest that would be accrued? Seems ever so problematic to me even if everyone can use it.

It is and should be unless if it was a hell hole were anybody not following the norm, popular opinion and/or the religion (or non-religiousness) of the majority will have it bad, like i just explained.


To the emphasized: Not even slightly, just don't actually get your concern. Considering if this will be available to everybody.

Complexity to facilitate religious needs isn't exactly sound logic.

Honestly, i doubt it. But like i said, its not really my concern to address those things as much as addressing what i think is the actual grounds for your objection.

I don't really have any less respect for muslims than i do for any other religion and I have absolutely no care in the world for their special needs. They are not my problem and should no be anyone elses. Thats what annoys me most other than fincances.

Why is that? On what basis is it unfair? Who is being a victim in this case?

The poor people who have to reorganise and then sell student loans to accomodate a minority. In practice how the hell would this work? I've considered the finances all day and it seems that no matter what the people with their sharia beliefs are going to have issues so why even bother?

Like i said, not sure and it could be for many number of reasons.

I'd love to hear a reasonable reason for overcomplicating a student loan system to incorporate religious beliefs. The lunacy of the previous sentence cannot be emphasized enough.
 

Starsoul

Truth
I am vegetarian, I am against the slaughter of animals - be in for whatever faith.

Not a part of the debate, but Plants are living organisms too, google it, they are born, they go through all the developmental stages, they reproduce, they feel heat, cold, extreme weather, they eat& drink, they breath , they excrete, and they are affected by adverse climates. Research shows they even survive more radiantly when in amiable human company and absorb positive energy from humans and vice versa. They even make a sad sound when we break them and when they die.

Why do you eat them? Stop eating vegetables if you're so fond of preserving the planet, trust me it sounds just as cruel eating vegetables as it does eating animals :)
 
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Nerthus

Wanderlust
@ Nerthus


I sense a bit of lack of compassion in your statement, it seems to say that muslim shouldn't get an education at all even if they can manage to somehow adjust their educational needs in line with their beliefs. Why such bias?

I have never said that Muslims should not get an education.
I said that is they, or anyone for that matter, do not agree with the student loan then they don't have to get a student loan. That's not saying that they should not have an education.


But I do get your second part of the statement, why should you have to pay interest, thats a good question, but then, why do you pay interest? If you think paying interest is a burdening load, why do you get an education?

I wanted an education. I didn't particularly want to have to pay back money for years afterwards, but that's the way it is these days. I know people who saved for years to fund their studies just so they didn't have to get a loan.

One could say that, hey you shouldn't get an education either because of the fear of being indebted for long, why direct your bias towards muslims when it is actually the interest system that you should be questioning?

As I said before - the thread is about Muslims and student loans. If a threads is about Islam, then my reply will be about Islam. Why does that seem to imply that I am bias and prejudice against Islam?!

Why in the last many decades non-muslims have not ever objected to the interest rates/loan/debt system and a highly debt infused life style if it is so bothersome? And all of a sudden then, feel all agitated when somebody else demands an interest free education.

Access to a student loan should remain equal in my opinion.
 

Bismillah

Submit
It annoys me that minorities make demands.
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beenie

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Hi Lava,i agree they should be themselves but if that means being catered for in preference to everyone else then its a problem,i am dismayed at my countries Student loan system where its possible to run up some very serious debts,worse,even as a Graduate you are not guaranteed a good job in the current climate so if being a Muslim means you pay 0% interest but others pay more than that then its unfair IMO.

I just wanted to address this. Muslims would not be paying less than anyone else. The Islamic financing company will still make money from the loan via "fees" they collect on a loan. This is why some scholars take issue with these types of loans; they consider calling it "fees" rather than "interest" a mere word game. Most scholars concede that you have to deal with what's the "next best thing" and allow this type of loan.
 

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
I just wanted to address this. Muslims would not be paying less than anyone else. The Islamic financing company will still make money from the loan via "fees" they collect on a loan. This is why some scholars take issue with these types of loans; they consider calling it "fees" rather than "interest" a mere word game. Most scholars concede that you have to deal with what's the "next best thing" and allow this type of loan.

Any mention of religion in a decision making process makes me twitchy,it took the UK hundreds of years to rid ourselves of religion making decisions that have an effect in any way on the populace,whatever word game is used,i'm very secular.

Saying that i don't think UK residents should have to loan anything to get an education.
 

kai

ragamuffin
Any mention of religion in a decision making process makes me twitchy,it took the UK hundreds of years to rid ourselves of religion making decisions that have an effect in any way on the populace,whatever word game is used,i'm very secular.

Saying that i don't think UK residents should have to loan anything to get an education.

Me neither!
 

Badran

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Why should one set of beliefs be forced on everyone?

It shouldn't, but its one of the two options left after we eliminate "calling for separate etc...". The other is that they sit there and be quite, like i said and live like you do. So i was asking to see what exactly did you prefer out of these options.

Just as one group should not except whatever they want to just change for them in a society that has been working one way for a long time.

Not "whatever they want", no one said or suggested this. It depends on the call being made.

As for the point about society working one way for a long time, nobody is trying to "change society" neither. Not that its necessarily a bad thing, but its just not the case here. If a certain group have different needs in a certain department from the rest of society and their needs can be met with no problems, a good and healthy society would have absolutely no issues with that.

If you're talking in general, and meaning to say that accumulation of things like this will result in some form of changing in society, then sure so what? What do you expect?

If you don't want your society to be fitting to different sorts of people then don't allow different people in it, and ban any different form of thinking than that of the majority. That way you'll have your society remain as it is forever, if that will make you happy (which it won't, both according to what you say about yourself and how i perceive you to be).

If I moved to an Islamic country, would they listen to what I wanted to change? That's the problem I see.

Whats the problem? That in an Islamic country your calls will be ignored?

Sure, i agree, if thats the case then that is a problem. Why do you want to do the same in your country?

Or do you mean to say that this is actually a good thing in Islamic countries, and that you want to take their example in doing this?

No.
You clearly don't know my posts, or personal thoughts towards Islam.

On the contrary, i'm very familiar with your posts, which is why i'm surprised by your posts in this thread.

It's not about living towards those beliefs - they don't like the way the student loan is - then fine, don't get one.

So this is your answer, that if they don't like something, they should not expect or call for anything regarding their need in this issue. Okay.

My question is, why do you think so?

I mean, disregarding for a moment the obvious lack of care for other people in such statement (since of course not all people actually have the option of making such decisions and still getting an education, and others who can but will have lots of trouble because of this), why exactly do you feel minorities should not make any calls for their needs to be met?

But, of course anyone who is opposing their right to have what they want is against Islam. Please don't use that on me.

I didn't say you're against Islam, didn't even say you are against Muslims, because i know you're not. I'm wording what i have to say in the form of such questions precisely to try and point out how your posts are coming off like, despite knowing that you're not that kind of person. But thats exactly what your words were and are seeming like.

I am vegetarian

I'm going to use that as an example.

How would you feel as a Vegetarian, if you heard that some Vegetarians have made calls for vegetarian food to be made available in schools for example, for vegetarians (but it will also be available for everybody else). And only to be met with the kind of thing being spouted in this thread.

If there are any differences i'm not putting in mind, do point them out, but also please try to see my point with the example.
 

Badran

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Someone gets screwed to cater for religious beliefs in order to "try" and account for market inflation etc. Said it before.

Perhaps i'm being dense, but i still have no idea what you're saying. Who gets screwed?

Thats the problem.

It being a religious need is not a problem, its only a problem if it actually is causing issues, aside from making some people feel uncomfortable.

Any form of religious reason is a pretty average reason at best. Why change what works and applying a religious need to everyone? With the associated financial issues it seems rediculous to even consider.

Religious reasons, or religious based needs, are not average, good or bad. It depends on what are those needs. In other words, religious needs can vary from human sacrifices to just food made in a certain way. So each one should be judged on its own. You're looking at religion in a very narrow and negative way, which for the most part is unjustified.

It annoys me that minorities make demands.

Not really sure how i can respond to this.

So, i'll just make sure i understand you correctly first. Do you mean to say, that you actually think that minorities should not feel so comfortable as to be making demands just like anybody else?

Do you mean to say minorities should be worried about the fact that they are a minority, and only very politely ask for their rights and hope that the majority would be so kind as to treat them like they treat themselves?

Or do you think they should have some manners and not even ask at all from the start?

Not that this isn't actually the case in may places today in the world, however you're not only okay with that, but you would be and are bothered whenever the opposite happens. When in a country, a minority is treated like everybody else and are allowed to make demands and calls etc...

Why are they in a position to make them.

Because they are citizens of that country, may be?

Could UK citizens make a demand that they take things the way they are?

Could or couldn't is one thing, should or shouldn't is another. If you're asking me the first, sure may be they can, not really positive. Though i don't think in the UK a lot of things like that could happen.

If the second, they shouldn't, because its none of their business. They take loans in a certain way, they supposedly like it. Others don't, and option is being called for to be made which ALSO will be made available to those other citizens which were supposedly already happy (which of course isn't actually necessarily the case, at least not with all people).

Why on earth would they have a right to say "No, we don't accept this. Force them Muslims to do things just like we do, in our own preferred way"?

They don't have a right to that, unless of course, if this was going to hurt them in some way.

If majorities catered for everyone we'd have a huge mess and thats the way it seems to be heading.

Quite the contrary, if majorities treated minorities fairly and catered for their needs when and if possible, the world be a much better place.

It will cause student loan chaos. How the hell would you go about explaining this sort of thing to non-muslims? What if non-muslims do not accept the terms? What if the market drops and because they have made a contract at a fixed addition for interest that would be accrued? Seems ever so problematic to me even if everyone can use it.

Lets make this really simple. If such consequences or others were bound or likely to happen, i'm sure the banks are already aware of that, and thus will not be able to provide the service based on this ground, which would be understandable.

Other than that, there are not really any other grounds to oppose this except because of bigotry and intolerance like i already said.

Complexity to facilitate religious needs isn't exactly sound logic.

Not sure what you mean.

I don't really have any less respect for muslims than i do for any other religion and I have absolutely no care in the world for their special needs. They are not my problem and should no be anyone elses. Thats what annoys me most other than fincances.

I know you don't have any less respect for Muslims, but your problem is with religion in general.

Not caring for the special needs is one thing (although i disagree with that) and opposing is another. You're not just not caring, you have a problem with Muslims making a call in the first place for their special needs to be met.

The poor people who have to reorganise and then sell student loans to accomodate a minority. In practice how the hell would this work? I've considered the finances all day and it seems that no matter what the people with their sharia beliefs are going to have issues so why even bother?

Like i said, if its going to cause damage, or if its not worth it, i'm sure banks won't bother with this. If you're trying to say they will due to pressure or something like that (which i don't think would happen), then they shouldn't. Assuming that there would actually be such damages.

I'd love to hear a reasonable reason for overcomplicating a student loan system to incorporate religious beliefs. The lunacy of the previous sentence cannot be emphasized enough.

Nobody is incorporating a religious belief, its catering for the needs of a certain group, pure and simple.
 
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darkendless

Guardian of Asgaard
Perhaps i'm being dense, but i still have no idea what you're saying. Who gets screwed?

Well because you cannot calculate inflation and changes in interest rates properly, you can't work out (accurately) how much interest the loan would normally create. I am of course going by the notion that when the loan is approved an additional charge (to account for interest) is applied so that the loaning institution is not effectively losing money. Because you can't make a 5 year (for arguements sake) prediction, either the loan institution will add a greater charge (screwing the students) or a lesser charge (screwing themselves) to cover the interest of the loan. Do you get me?
However aren't I causing another problem in my assumption given that these people will be effectively paying interest because the loan would be larger to accomodate it? Isn't it the same problem but moving the interest from incremental to concentrated?

Wouldn't the only solution be that no one pays interest which would ruin the loaning institution given where they get their money from WOULD charge interest?


It being a religious need is not a problem, its only a problem if it actually is causing issues, aside from making some people feel uncomfortable.

Its making the system overly complex to cater for such a small amount of people even though it could be applied to a whole lot more people. I see little benefit for anyone except muslims.


Religious reasons, or religious based needs, are not average, good or bad. It depends on what are those needs. In other words, religious needs can vary from human sacrifices to just food made in a certain way. So each one should be judged on its own. You're looking at religion in a very narrow and negative way, which for the most part is unjustified.

I'm looking at this very simply. A religious need is severely over-complexifying a situation to the point where one party is disadvantaged (either students overpay or underpay which would screw the loan institution).

So, i'll just make sure i understand you correctly first. Do you mean to say, that you actually think that minorities should not feel so comfortable as to be making demands just like anybody else?

Do you mean to say minorities should be worried about the fact that they are a minority, and only very politely ask for their rights and hope that the majority would be so kind as to treat them like they treat themselves?

Or do you think they should have some manners and not even ask at all from the start?

Not that this isn't actually the case in may places today in the world, however you're not only okay with that, but you would be and are bothered whenever the opposite happens. When in a country, a minority is treated like everybody else and are allowed to make demands and calls etc...

This is based on a case by case basis. Halal food that is easy enough to sort out is no problem. This is a problem because it is unnecessarily complex. It seems to me that in this case a minority is making a demand that cannot be facilitated and is therefore unreasonable.
Minorities need to think about the impact of their demands before they make them.


Because they are citizens of that country, may be?


Could or couldn't is one thing, should or shouldn't is another. If you're asking me the first, sure may be they can, not really positive. Though i don't think in the UK a lot of things like that could happen.

If the second, they shouldn't, because its none of their business. They take loans in a certain way, they supposedly like it. Others don't, and option is being called for to be made which ALSO will be made available to those other citizens which were supposedly already happy (which of course isn't actually necessarily the case, at least not with all people).


Have you ever been to university and tried to suss out the nuts and nolts of a student loan? Its not easy even when its simple interest, this would make it worse. The students DO have the right to oppose this on grounds of financial bias. Bias comes out of the financial institution not being able to make a guarantee that both normal loans and the special loans will pay the same amount of money in a fixed time period. This isn't about the fact that its muslims but yes it is because it is about a religious need complicating a situation. I question how equality in payment structure could be guaranteed.


Why on earth would they have a right to say "No, we don't accept this. Force them Muslims to do things just like we do, in our own preferred way"?

They don't have a right to that, unless of course, if this was going to hurt them in some way.

Because its affects them too. What if the students who paid no incremental interest that varied with the market had to pay more interest. In todays economy how can you guarantee that this wouldn't happen?

Easy answer that one and I didn't even need to reference religion.


Quite the contrary, if majorities treated minorities fairly and catered for their needs when and if possible, the world be a much better place.

Explains why we have such a problem with minorities in Australia. I bet i you said this sentence to ay Australian that wasn't a politician they'd laugh at you.

A common bumper sticker on cars here in Australia is "this is Australia, love it or leave it." Wonder what the minorities think of that :rolleyes:

Lets make this really simple. If such consequences or others were bound or likely to happen, i'm sure the banks are already aware of that, and thus will not be able to provide the service based on this ground, which would be understandable.

Other than that, there are not really any other grounds to oppose this except because of bigotry and intolerance like i already said.

So people who oppose the imposition of religion into university with questionable financial equality is bigotry is it?


Not sure what you mean.
They are trying to make the loan system far more complex than it needs to be for the sake of religious beliefs. I find that terribly unreasonable.


I know you don't have any less respect for Muslims, but your problem is with religion in general.

Not caring for the special needs is one thing (although i disagree with that) and opposing is another. You're not just not caring, you have a problem with Muslims making a call in the first place for their special needs to be met.

This isn't about muslims specifically. I think religious beliefs should not be catered for at all. I don't think religion should play such an obvious role in society and i've said that a lot on these boards more directed at christianity than anything else.

Like i said, if its going to cause damage, or if its not worth it, i'm sure banks won't bother with this. If you're trying to say they will due to pressure or something like that (which i don't think would happen), then they shouldn't. Assuming that there would actually be such damages.

Well as I have explained I don't think the system could be sold to the heirachy. With a system like this there are no guarantees either the student or the loan institution would find the loan viable.


Nobody is incorporating a religious belief, its catering for the needs of a certain group, pure and simple.

Yes, but I (as explained) find it terribly unreasonable. You could even take religion out of the arguement and its stupid. My opinion is that adding religion to the matter makes an even less reasonable arguement to change the system.
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
My guess is that Britain will comply with the demands.

Yes, and compensate by charging even higher rates of interest for the other students.

I can see a wave of conversions coming on.
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
Because I have enough from special rules for Muslims.
First they demand that Muslim girl are excused from attending swimming lessons (1, 2) or are allowed to wear special suits (1).
Than some institutions start serving halal food (1, 2).
In Austria and Germany it is already customary for girls to wear headscarf in state schools.
All these things go against the cultural traditions of Europe and I must say that I am tired of seeing that Muslims do not adapt themselves to the European cultural traditions.
When someone wants to live like in his/her native country, he/she must must stay in that country - going to a foreign country means that you have to adapt yourself to the customs of that country.

I must say that I disagree. Excusing people from lessons is one thing, but the rest of these rules seem fine with me. If you wanted to live in Japan for a while or even move there, would you wear a kimono or jeans and t-shirt? Living in another country doesn't mean you have to conform totally to their culture; just to their laws.

Now, I will agree that it would be outrageous for people to move to a country and try to restrict their liberties; for instance if a place were to gain a majority population that favored restricting this or that civil liberty. That is truly horrific and should never happen. But I don't see a problem with Muslimahs wearing hijab or offering halal or kosher foods, etc. What's the big deal?

Edit: I mean, I do get conforming to their culture to a point; but clothes that you wear and food that you eat are fairly small and insignificant parts!
 
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Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
If they can't take out federal loans, why don't they set up their own system? Why does the government have to accommodate them?
 

Marble

Rolling Marble
I hate the whole "we want to be separate" attitude many people have. I am usually very tolerant, but the UK is not a Muslim country. If people do not like that it does not reflect Muslim laws and attitudes that you feel so strongly about, then go and study/ live somewhere it does.

I respect everyone's right to believe what they want, but things like this annoy me.
:yes:
Why should one set of beliefs be forced on everyone?
Just as one group should not except whatever they want to just change for them in a society that has been working one way for a long time.
If I moved to an Islamic country, would they listen to what I wanted to change? That's the problem I see.
:yes:
I must say that I disagree. Excusing people from lessons is one thing, but the rest of these rules seem fine with me. If you wanted to live in Japan for a while or even move there, would you wear a kimono or jeans and t-shirt?
I think Japanese rarely wear Kimonos nowadays, only on special occasions such as the visit of a Shinto shrine on feast days.
I guess when I would move to Japan and would start wearing Kimonos they would find me rather funny. :D
But I sure would have to learn how to perform a correct bow.
 

darkendless

Guardian of Asgaard
If they can't take out federal loans, why don't they set up their own system? Why does the government have to accommodate them?

But then if they're not paying incremental interest how can you call it fair?

Perhaps they need their own universities?
 
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