Muslim views on Jesus

[ChristineM]

Not as futile as futile as changing your mind. Bye bye.

Ok, so you have no argument and need to cherry pick my post to provide your idea of a comeback, cheers, bye

 

[David1967]

Jesus made claims about himself and taught certaun things by which muslims reject.

Muslims have there own version of who jesus is. They reject jesus version of himself.

To be fair, even Christian denominations have disagreements on the nature of Jesus.

 

[Terry Sampson]

To be fair, even Christian denominations have disagreements on the nature of Jesus.

Aye, .. My brother and I were talking about that the other day, in the context of our mutual conversation about nephew and nieces. [Note: our father was, for close to 60 years, a Missouri Synod Lutheran-ordained minister]. My brother and I reflected on "the essentials of our mutual notions of the nature of Jesus". My brother calls it: "the acid test", Jesus - crucified, entombed, resurrected, and ascended.

 

[firedragon]

Think so, d'ya?

• Genesis 3:8 They heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God among the trees of the garden. 9 Then the Lord God called to the man, and said to him, “Where are you?”
• Genesis 12:1 Now the Lord said to Abram,
  "Go forth from your country,
  And from your relatives
  And from your father’s house,
  To the land which I will show you;
  2 And I will make you a great nation,
  And I will bless you,
  And make your name great;
  And so you shall be a blessing;
  3 And I will bless those who bless you,
  And the one who curses you I will curse.
  And in you all the families of the earth will be blessed.”
• Genesis 17:1 Now when Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him,
  “I am God Almighty;
  Walk before Me, and be blameless.
  2 “I will establish My covenant between Me and you,
  And I will multiply you exceedingly.”
  3 Abram fell on his face, and God talked with him, saying,
  4 “As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you,
  And you will be the father of a multitude of nations.
  5 “No longer shall your name be called Abram,
  But your name shall be Abraham;
  For I have made you the father of a multitude of nations."
• Exodus 3:1. Now Moses was pasturing the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian; and he led the flock to the west side of the wilderness and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. 2 The angel of the Lord appeared to him in a blazing fire from the midst of a bush; and he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, yet the bush was not consumed. 3 So Moses said, I must turn aside now and see this marvelous sight, why the bush is not burned up.” 4 When the Lord saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!” And he said, “Here I am.” 5 Then He said, “Do not come near here; remove your sandals from your feet, for the place on which you are standing is holy ground.” 6 He said also, “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” Then Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God.
• Exodus 13:17. Now when Pharaoh had let the people go, God did not lead them by the way of the land of the Philistines, even though it was near; for God said, “The people might change their minds when they see war, and return to Egypt.” 18 Hence God led the people around by the way of the wilderness to the Red Sea; and the sons of Israel went up in martial array from the land of Egypt. ... 20 Then they set out from Succoth and camped in Etham on the edge of the wilderness. 21 The Lord was going before them in a pillar of cloud by day to lead them on the way, and in a pillar of fire by night to give them light, that they might travel by day and by night. 22 He did not take away the pillar of cloud by day, nor the pillar of fire by night, from before the people.
• Exodus 19:18 Now Mount Sinai was all in smoke because the Lord descended upon it in fire; and its smoke ascended like the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mountain quaked violently. 19 When the sound of the trumpet grew louder and louder, Moses spoke and God answered him with thunder. 20 The Lord came down on Mount Sinai, to the top of the mountain; and the Lord called Moses to the top of the mountain, and Moses went up. 21 Then the Lord spoke to Moses, ..."
• Isaiah 6:1 In the year that King Uzziah died I saw the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up; and the train of his robe filled the temple. ... 4 And the foundations of the thresholds shook at the voice of him who called, and the house was filled with smoke.

Check with the Muslims and see if they can cite a verse from the Qur'an in which Allah spoke directly to a human being and said "I". Let me know, if and when you do, what you find out, ... please.

What you want is the Quran to speak just like the Bible.

 

[Terry Sampson]

What you want is the Quran to speak just like the Bible.

No, ... I don't.

 

[firedragon]

No, ... I don't.

Then why would you ask the Quran to have similar genre?

 

[firedragon]

Yeshua tried to correct the Jews back to El Elyon (God Most High), which is Ala ilah in Arabic.

Its not Ala ilah. Maybe you made a typo error. However, its Al ilah.

The Jews no longer understood Yeshua Elohim's father is El (the Source of our reality)...

I really cant grasp why you would say "Yeshua Elohim" and also "Father is El" when Elohim is the plural of El.

Take into account 'when Yeshua prayed, "Eli, Eli" (My God), some thought he spoke of Elijah' (Matthew 27:46-47), which shows people had already forgotten 'that El is not like the Elohim' (Isaiah 46:9 → Deuteronomy 32:7-9).

Elohim is the Plural of El.

 

[Terry Sampson]

Then why would you ask the Quran to have similar genre?

1. I am familiar with who YHWH personally speaks to in the Hebrew Scriptures and says: "I ... "
2. In my admittedly limited reading of the Qur'an--until Pastek kindly presented me with a few citations--the angel Gabriel (I am told) tells Muhammad that Allah says: "We ..."
   
3. I invited someone now on my "Ignore" list to ask a Muslim "and see if they can cite a verse from the Qur'an in which Allah spoke directly to a human being and said "I". I happen to find the differences in the way YHWH speaks to people in the Hebrew Scriptures and the way Allah speaks in the Qur'an interesting. It's as though, IMO, YHWH and Allah are two different Beings.
   
4. So far, I have found that Allah spoke directly to Adam and Moses. I have only read some of the portions of the Qur'an which report that Allah spoke directly to Moses. I have not found those portions in which Allah spoke directly to Adam, probably because I haven't tried to find them ... yet.
5. Above, loverofhumanity [a Baha'i believer] wrote: To become a Muslim one MUST also accept ... the Gospels and Torah.[/QUOTE] I responded with: "Something tells me that you're in for a big surprise." What do you think, given the probability that loverofhumanity has the current Hebrew and Christian Scriptures in mind when claiming that "To become a Muslim one MUST also accept the Gospels and Torah?
6. BTW, you do realize that wizanda's collection of beliefs is the product of his/her personal creative efforts, don't you?
   

 

[wizanda]

Elohim is the Plural of El.

Elim is plural of El; Eloh is a Divine Being in Ancient Hebrew, and Elohim plural Divine Beings or the Divine Council.

When a H is added it means breathed by God, like Abram became Abraham, and Sara became Sarah when blessed by God.

In my opinion.

 

[firedragon]

Elim is plural of El; Eloh is a Divine Being in Ancient Hebrew, and Elohim plural Divine Beings or the Divine Council.

When a H is added it means breathed by God, like Abram became Abraham, and Sara became Sarah when blessed by God.

In my opinion.

Err. Well. Your prerogative.

 

[firedragon]

• I am familiar with who YHWH personally speaks to in the Hebrew Scriptures and says: "I ... "

• In my admittedly limited reading of the Qur'an--until Pastek kindly presented me with a few citations--the angel Gabriel (I am told) tells Muhammad that Allah says: "We ..."

• I invited someone now on my "Ignore" list to ask a Muslim "and see if they can cite a verse from the Qur'an in which Allah spoke directly to a human being and said "I". I happen to find the differences in the way YHWH speaks to people in the Hebrew Scriptures and the way Allah speaks in the Qur'an interesting. It's as though, IMO, YHWH and Allah are two different Beings.

• So far, I have found that Allah spoke directly to Adam and Moses. I have only read some of the portions of the Qur'an which report that Allah spoke directly to Moses. I have not found those portions in which Allah spoke directly to Adam, probably because I haven't tried to find them ... yet.

Thanks for an objective post. Appreciate that.

First thing you must understand brother is that the Quran is written in Arabic. It doesn't work the way English does. Ill give you an example. Thawba means repentance. Now if you wish to say "I will take/accept repentance" you dont use a letter like "I". You say "Aathoobu".

"Except those who repent and amend/reform and clarify; for those I will accept their repentance, for I am the One who accepts repentance, the Merciful." - 2:160

You are not a Muslim. So you will not read the Quran from a devotional point of view. And thats great. So read it from your personal point of view. Just to understand the genre at least.

Anyway, any philologist reading the Quran will affirm that its written by one person. Ask a palaeographer or a scholar in Classical Arabic. The whole book is written by one person. Forget about Gods word etc for the moment. So when you read it you have to understand the point of view of the writer, and the reader. If it was Muhammed (as an example only) who wrote this book, and given that he cooked it up (from your point of view of course), he used first person and second person addresses to talk to you the reader.

• Above, loverofhumanity [a Baha'i believer] wrote: To become a Muslim one MUST also accept ... the Gospels and Torah.

• I responded with: "Something tells me that you're in for a big surprise." What do you think, given the probability that loverofhumanity has the current Hebrew and Christian Scriptures in mind when claiming that "To become a Muslim one MUST also accept the Gospels and Torah?

• BTW, you do realize that wizanda's collection of beliefs is the product of his/her personal creative efforts, don't you?

[/QUOTE]

Well. I do believe he has the current Hebrew and Christians scriptures in mind. But I could be wrong because some Bahai's also believe that the Torah and Gospel is not the Bible but some of the essence is alive in the Bible. So thats a different point of view. Muslims also have the same issue. People differ. And I dont read peoples minds if you understand what I am saying.

 

[Terry Sampson]

You are not a Muslim. So you will not read the Quran from a devotional point of view. And thats great. So read it from your personal point of view. Just to understand the genre at least.

A Muslim reads the Qur'an from a devotional point of view and a Christian does not.
The Christian reads the Hebrew and Christian Scriptures from a devotional point of view and the Muslim does not.
If, as some [IMO, naively] say, the Muslim and the Christian both worship the same God, has the Muslim or the Christian, or have both, failed to exercise proper devotion when reading both books?

 

[firedragon]

A Muslim reads the Qur'an from a devotional point of view and a Christian does not.
The Christian reads the Hebrew and Christian Scriptures from a devotional point of view and the Muslim does not.
If, as some [IMO, naively] say, the Muslim and the Christian both worship the same God, has the Muslim or the Christian, or have both, failed to exercise proper devotion when reading both books?

Great. Thanks.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

So they Do not worship the same God.

What say you to these Jew who disagrees with you?

"Rabbi Ovadiah Yosef witnessed prominent rabbis who prayed in the Mosque at the Cave of Machpelah. He then determines decisively that in Mosques it is permitted to pray and learn there. [3]

Responsa Yabiah Omer 7, Yoreh De'ah 12, paragraph 4.

RaMbaM himself prostrated ( http://www.chayas.com/qidah.htm ), and his son Rabbeinu Avarohom said that the islamic prostration comes from our prophets. He also said we should be ashamed that the goyim are taking our minhagim while we are taking the bad minhagim of the goyim(Hamaspik LaOvdei HaShem).

If Muslims don't worship the God of Abraham why is it permitted that they (Jews) can worship in a mosque and not in a church?

 

[Wasp]

A Muslim reads the Qur'an from a devotional point of view and a Christian does not.
The Christian reads the Hebrew and Christian Scriptures from a devotional point of view and the Muslim does not.
If, as some [IMO, naively] say, the Muslim and the Christian both worship the same God, has the Muslim or the Christian, or have both, failed to exercise proper devotion when reading both books?

When said that Christians worship the same God it actually refers to the original christianity. But christianity has gone through major changes, especially in the first few hundred years of it, which makes is very problematic to decide whether today's Christians and how many of them worship the same God as Muslims. Or another way to put it is that the Christians worship their God wrong.

 

[Pastek]

What do you mean?

He asked for some verses and you asked him to read FIVE times the Quran .... why ?

 

[Wasp]

He asked for some verses and you asked him to read FIVE times the Quran .... why ?

I'm trying to collect information about Allah and his interactions with humans as they are recorded in the Qur'an. Thanks for your contribution.

 

[Pastek]

So ?
One time with a paper and a pen is more than enought.
You don't have to read each verse 5 times to get it.

It's like you try to make it complicated to people who just want to have some information and make it like they are into an analysis of the Quran.

If I want to know how God interacts with people in the Bible will you tell me that I have to read the Bible 5 times too ?

 

[Wasp]

So ?
One time with a paper and a pen is more than enought.
You don't have to read each verse 5 times to get it.

It's like you try to make it complicated to people who just want to have some information and make it like they are into an analysis of the Quran.

If I want to know how God interacts with people in the Bible will you tell me that I have to read the Bible 5 times too ?

I would, actually. I wasn't responsing to the question about verses. Didn't even notice it. Just general "information about Allah and His interactions with humans as they are recorded in the Qur'an" imo does require extensive studying.

Yes, it gets complicated. You like to make it simple. I don't because it isn't simple to me.

 

[Pastek]

I would, actually. I wasn't responsing to the question about verses. Didn't even notice it. Just general "information about Allah and His interactions with humans as they are recorded in the Qur'an" imo does require extensive studying.

Yes, it gets complicated. You like to make it simple. I don't because it isn't simple to me.

He didn't say he wanted to convert or have a profound analysis, we are not in the "Scriptural Debates" section.
He just asked for few passages to compare quickly with the Bible.
But you made it so complicated that he even didn't want to search for more.

What you are doing is the opposite of Islam :

The Prophet (pbuh) said:

“Religion is easy, and no one overburdens himself in his religion but he will be unable to continue in that way. So do not be extremists, but try to be near perfection and receive the good tidings that you will be rewarded. Gain strength by worshipping in the mornings and afternoons and during the last hours of the night.”

“The best of your religion is that which is easiest, the best of your religion is that which is easiest.”

Commentary on the hadeeth “No one overburdens himself in his religion but he will be unable to continue in that way” - Islam Question & Answer

"Facilitate religious matters to people and do not make things difficult."
(Bukhari)

And from Quran :

3.159 It is part of the mercy of Allah that you* deal gently with them. If you were severe or hardhearted, they would have broken away from you.
*Muhammad

I don't understand those muslims in forums who ask people to learn arabic, to read many times the Quran when they ask simple questions.
Islam is not a complicated religion.