Muslims and Christians

[A. Ben-Shema]

The above is a quote from rojse in the Islam contribution thread. It got me thinking that it's right on the money. The muslims and the christians are always at each others throats, but why?

To both christians and muslims, do you think we could ever have peaceful and productive interaction with one another?

For christians, would you ever read the Quran?

Admit it if you come across anything you find to be true within Islam?

For muslims, would you ever read the bible for any other purpose than to find it's flaws? Would you ever read it to see its commonalities with Quran, and admit if you found some truth within its pages?

Why or why not? Can we get along peacefully, without finding one to be the enemy of the other? How much does a christian even know about Islam and vice verse for muslims?

Religions, and I mean ALL religions, are merely tools of satan, used to keep man from actually discovering the Truth.

Firstly, I guess, I should define what satan is. Satan (Hebrew = adversary, enemy) is that which keeps us from God. There is nothing which keeps us from God, other than our own 'first-born' carnal / worldly / unenlightened mind (i.e. our ego / intellect / persona).

Now religion is merely a 'belief system'. It is based on a variety of beliefs (dogma / theology / imaginings) procured from the minds of men. Do not misunderstand what I am saying - I understand that the Masters themselves (e.g. Jesus, Moses, Mohammed, Krishna, Buddha, etc.) were certainly Enlightened Gnostics (i.e. Knowers of Truth / God), but what I am saying is that religions do not give Gnosis of God, as the Master did - but merely blind beliefs (i.e. beliefs which are from the un-Enlightened minds of theologians). The Truth and Knowledge, which the Masters themselves have always taught and revealed, has been hidden by the Spiritual ignorance of religion.

This is why religions will never see eye to eye, for they are simply 'ego trips' for the masses - contending one against the other. The tools of satan (carnal mind).

Peace & Love

 

[Popeyesays]

Religions, and I mean ALL religions, are merely tools of satan, used to keep man from actually discovering the Truth. . . . .


Now religion is merely a 'belief system'. It is based on a variety of beliefs (dogma / theology / imaginings) procured from the minds of men. Do not misunderstand what I am saying - I understand that the Masters themselves (e.g. Jesus, Moses, Mohammed, Krishna, Buddha, etc.) were certainly Enlightened Gnostics (i.e. Knowers of Truth / God), but what I am saying is that religions do not give Gnosis of God, as the Master did - but merely blind beliefs . . . .

Peace & Love

"CX. The Great Being saith: O ye children of men! The fundamental purpose animating the Faith of God and His Religion is to safeguard the interests and promote the unity of the human race, and to foster the spirit of love and fellowship amongst men. Suffer it not to become a source of dissension and discord, of hate and enmity. This is the straight Path, the fixed and immovable foundation. Whatsoever is raised on this foundation, the changes and chances of the world can never impair its strength, nor will the revolution of countless centuries undermine its structure."
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 215)

 

[A. Ben-Shema]

"CX. The Great Being saith: O ye children of men! The fundamental purpose animating the Faith of God and His Religion is to safeguard the interests and promote the unity of the human race, and to foster the spirit of love and fellowship amongst men. Suffer it not to become a source of dissension and discord, of hate and enmity. This is the straight Path, the fixed and immovable foundation. Whatsoever is raised on this foundation, the changes and chances of the world can never impair its strength, nor will the revolution of countless centuries undermine its structure."
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 215)

Personally, I would say that the fundamental purpose... is to unite each one of us with God Himself (the Divine Spirit within). Only when we are united in Truth with God can we unite, in Truth and Love, with each other.

Peace & Love

 

[NoahideHiker]

the major difference is actually, the christians believe that jesus is the son of god or god in flesh and died for mankind's sin. while the muslims believe that jesus never died in the cross and that he is just a mortal sent by the one almighty god to convey his messege.

yet both religion claim that they are monotheistic.

They can both keep 'em. Both Jesus and Mohammad offer me nothing.

 

[neves]

i think this conversation is not suitable in this forum. (will someone create a new for this kinda topic?)

anyway...

i dont mean to mess with anyone's mind or anything. but i would like you to imagine how muhammad would spread his teachings. would he personally say "i call upon to bare witness that there is no god but Allah and that I muhammad is the messenger of Allah"?

or would he say "you must bare witness that there is no god but Allah" and later his followers who look up to him enforce that you must accept muhammad's prophethood.

remember we are talking about a god fearing person that will never put his name in the same level or in one breath as Allah his god. of course he is one of the great prophets that ever walk this planet. no doubt about that.



i got to disagree with you on this brother. say for example a muslim who clearly live life like a non muslim. who never prays in his entire life, who never practise what prophet muhammad teaches but he still claims to be a muslim and Allah the almighty is his one and only God. how would you judge that person? would you say that he is not a muslim? if he dies, will bury him as a muslim? will you not perform funeral prayer for him?

Messenger = Slave of Allah … it does not mean equal to Allah in any capacity… in fact Muhammad did claim he was the messenger of Allah and was human like the rest of us… and the message was to worship God alone and show us the right examples to follow practically… so I don’t see what you’re getting at…

 

[Popeyesays]

Personally, I would say that the fundamental purpose... is to unite each one of us with God Himself (the Divine Spirit within). Only when we are united in Truth with God can we unite, in Truth and Love, with each other.

Peace & Love

"My object is none other than the betterment of the world and the tranquillity of its peoples. The well-being of mankind, its peace and security, are unattainable unless and until its unity is firmly established. This unity can never be achieved so long as the counsels which the Pen of the Most High hath revealed are suffered to pass unheeded.
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 286)

And no, I don't think we need to be a race of mystics all seeking individual union with God. The society of man will crumble away to nothing in that event and we would be back in the forest grubbing for existence.

Regards,
Scott

 

[A. Ben-Shema]

"My object is none other than the betterment of the world and the tranquillity of its peoples. The well-being of mankind, its peace and security, are unattainable unless and until its unity is firmly established. This unity can never be achieved so long as the counsels which the Pen of the Most High hath revealed are suffered to pass unheeded.
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 286)

And no, I don't think we need to be a race of mystics all seeking individual union with God. The society of man will crumble away to nothing in that event and we would be back in the forest grubbing for existence.

Regards,
Scott

So it seems that Baha'u'llah and I are both saying the same thing - that knowing and following God and His Divine principals (Laws) is the fundamental requirement and purpose.

It seems, by what you say about Mystics, that you are someone who values the luxuries and advancement of material living more than Spiritual living and advancement.

Peace & Love

 

[Popeyesays]

It seems, by what you say about Mystics, that you are someone who values the luxuries and advancement of material living more than Spiritual living and advancement.

Peace & Love

Your plumbing of the depths of my statement haven't gotten a tenth of an inch below the surface,

Divine Civilization and the culture based on that divilization can attain the heights of material knowledge as well, and not abuse that material knowledge.

Scott

 

[A. Ben-Shema]

Your plumbing of the depths of my statement haven't gotten a tenth of an inch below the surface,

Sorry, I do not have such a measuring instrument.

Divine Civilization and the culture based on that divilization [? ] can attain the heights of material knowledge as well, and not abuse that material knowledge.

This sounds like a contradiction. I thought that you said previously, that if we became Mystics (i.e. Divine) we would go backward and live in the forests. Perhaps I misunderstood you.

Peace & Love

 

[lew0049]

I agree with that and then at the same time I don't because even when we disagree, we are still having it peacefully, and I would say it is productive even if it doesn't change my mind. The conversion of each other does play a bid factor yes, but I believe if we can start with our similarities rather then start with our differences, we can be more calm when we get to our differences and why we have them.

We are both correct to say we are true. I understand that our differing concepts concerning Jesus make all the hoopla we get into. It is one difference and dare I say the only one. All other discrepancies between us are rooted in that. If we could somehow resolve that, either Jesus is God or he is not, we could become the one religion we were meant to be. We speak with the same mouths, albeit sometimes it comes from an opposite place.

We both believe that fornication, adultery, stealing, murder is wrong. We agree that worshipping any but the one creator is wrong. We agree that there is life after death, a judgement day, a resurrection, an end time, an anitchrist, that christ will return to correct all the things that were skewed after his ascension. We agree that Christ did ascend to heaven, and that he is not dead.

We actually agree on alot of stuff if we sit to look. I find that we sen alot of time criticizing one another more than anything. I find a popular attack on islam by christians, is that we are not worshipping the same god, there is no good in islam, and any good to be found is merely stealing it from christians. All this is said instead of trying to see it from another POV. Why would the God that loved the bani israel so much, not love the arabs enough to guide them or send them a messeger?

I don't really want anyone to actually go to answering those question because they will spin us to another direction.

I think non-american muslims are guilty of much of the same stuff. I say non-american because many american muslims were christians at one time, so we have a sort of a soft spot if you will, and are more versed in what a christian actually believes because we have read the bible, and been to church and so on. A non-american muslim may not be as well versed in christian doctrine from experience. Unless they took it upon themselves to study it, they have probably never had a reason to pick up a bible, and all they know about christianity is that christians worship jesus. Regardless of the deeper explanation behind that, it is polytheism to us all. A non-american muslim may have a harder time getting past that to see anything else in christianity that is true.

Excellent topic
I will say one thing about the differences between our religions, and that is that when I have read different parts of the Quran, I do not see the same love as is presented in the Bible. Yes, Jesus shows his authority in the Bible as he God is perfectly just, however, I read somewhere that 11% of the Quran talks about Jihad - thus killing people of other religions. Also, I found it interesting that Muhummad speaks of Jesus in a divine way; however, to believe in much of the Quran requires the neglect of much of the Gospels.

In the end, I would rather follow of the words of the living (even as Muhammad said, Jesus) rather than that of the dead.

 

[Katzpur]

Religions, and I mean ALL religions, are merely tools of satan, used to keep man from actually discovering the Truth.

To each his own, but I find this statement extremely offensive and self-righteous. If my religion brings me closer to God and makes me a better person, why should I believe some nonsense about it being the tool of Satan?

 

[lilithu]

Religions, and I mean ALL religions, are merely tools of satan, used to keep man from actually discovering the Truth.
....
Peace & Love

lol!

To each his own, but I find this statement extremely offensive and self-righteous.

Meh, I find it more silly than anything else.

Don't listen to those evil religions that are telling you what you think! Listen to me telling you what to think instead! :tsk:


Yeah, right, kid. Have a flower. :flower2:

 

[A. Ben-Shema]

To each his own, but I find this statement extremely offensive and self-righteous. If my religion brings me closer to God and makes me a better person, why should I believe some nonsense about it being the tool of Satan?

You should not really believe anything! It is our duty to KNOW. Too many people have believed too much error, and caused too much hatred, merely because of their blind beliefs. I am sure you don't need me to give you any examples of the religious hatred continually perpetrated throughout this world by ALL religions - since the very beginning of history. No religion is immune to these atrocities in the name of 'belief' in God.

May I ask you what is your definition of a 'better' person? Are you better than a Buddhist, or a Hindu, or a Jew?

Peace & Love

 

[Katzpur]

May I ask you what is your definition of a 'better' person? Are you better than a Buddhist, or a Hindu, or a Jew?

I am a better person than I would be without my religious beliefs. I am not comparing myself to other people, but to the person I would be without my faith.

 

[worshiper]

Messenger = Slave of Allah … it does not mean equal to Allah in any capacity… in fact Muhammad did claim he was the messenger of Allah and was human like the rest of us… and the message was to worship God alone and show us the right examples to follow practically… so I don’t see what you’re getting at…

last time i check, a messenger is the one who conveys message. but i could be wrong. we are all slave (if you may call it) of Allah the almighty does that mean we are messengers too?

"the message was to worship God alone and show us the right examples to follow practically" <-- but he (muhammad) never seek acknowledgment from us that he is a prophet. he for himself knows he is a prophet. he doesnt need to reinforce that we should bare witness that he's the messenger in order to be accepted in god's grace. god alone acknowledges him. and who better to acknowledge if not god.

what i'm getting at is, when abraham was the prophet, his followers bare witness that there's no god but god (Allah) without "i bare witness that Ambraham is the messenger of god"

when moses was the prophet, his followers bare witness that there's no god but god (Allah) without "i bare witness that moses is the messenger of god"

when jesus was the prophet, his followers bare witness that there's no god but god (Allah) without "i bare witness that jesus is the messenger of god" (i'm talking about jesus in muslim's point of view which is not applicable for some christian denomination)


so why should they be any difference when it comes to muhammad? the other prophets are just as god fearing as muhammad.

in most mosques the name Allah is put side by side with the name Muhammad. surely for some people it may mean nothing but for me, i think it should not be like that. muhammad, as great of a human as he is should never be put on par with Allah. and there are a lot of muslims who look up to him in a degree that is almost iconic. which is rather scary if you ask me.

some claims that he is the most loved by Allah and to the extend that some people claim before adam was created that he (muhammad) was created first. believe it or not but i have heard such claim. may god have mercy on us all

p/s: bro neves pls read what bro maro and i have posted and see what we were trying to establish.to give you clear picture of what i'm trying to get at.

 

[UnityNow101]

Muslims don't nearly put as much emphasis in the Messenger Muhammed as Christians do in the Messenger Jesus. I just think that it was a way for the Arabian peoples to remember who brought the Message of the One God to them in light of all of the false teachers and false Messengers that were bringing views contrary to his. In no way do they put Him on the level of God. Just as a Messenger that brought the Message of God to the people of Arabia.

 

[worshiper]

bro maro, neves and UnityNow101,

once again i believe this matter its not suitable to be brought up in this forum. so i will cease to address the matter and continue picking my nose LOL

my sincere apology to my sister the forum starter

 

[Vassal]

You should not really believe anything! It is our duty to KNOW. Too many people have believed too much error, and caused too much hatred, merely because of their blind beliefs. I am sure you don't need me to give you any examples of the religious hatred continually perpetrated throughout this world by ALL religions - since the very beginning of history. No religion is immune to these atrocities in the name of 'belief' in God.

May I ask you what is your definition of a 'better' person? Are you better than a Buddhist, or a Hindu, or a Jew?

Peace & Love

Yes, I am better than you because my font is bigger and underlined.

Seriously though, do the research. The biggest mass murders all happened in atheist governments. The USSR and the People's Republic of China both classified themselves as atheist states, and they account for the majority of the world's democide (which is includes any type of mass murdering, including government induced famine and disease, but not war-dead) in the 20th century, about 139 million people. This is made even more startling by the fact that the data for PRC only includes 1949-1987, in which 77 million people were killed, and 1917-1987 for the USSR, in which 62 million people were killed. Thats 139 times as many people that were killed in the Crusades. And remember, those numbers don't include people killed in wars, they're just an atheist governments killing civilians. So while the vast majority of religions kill people spiritually, they're pretty good at not killing people physically.

Democide Information: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democide

 

[gnostic]

I think that when both Christians and Muslims can go beyond saying that "My religion is right and everyone else's religions are wrong" mentality, then it would be step forward.

Both religion have a habit of finding faults with the other religions' scriptures, teachings, and followers.

I think it is deep-rooted problem of monotheism itself. Although both Christianity and Islam are more inclusive, accepting people from all nationality and culture showing a great deal of flexibility, but at the same time they have inflexibility because they still have the archaic savagery that exist in the original Judaism.

Judaism is an exclusive religion, and people were tied to their religion by birth and ancestry, as well as by their Torah. If you have a drop of Israelite/Jewish/Hebrew blood, then you are automatically a Jew. Their God is show repeatedly punishing them or abandoning them if they diverge from their faith, ie. losing God's favour. It exhibit intolerance against non-Judaic religion.

Christianity and Islam are likewise, the same, in this mentality. However, this is not just with Abrahamic religions. It could be seen most clearly in the Egyptian monotheism, where it has little tolerance with polytheism.

Atenism, the religion of Akhenaten, or Amenhotep IV. Atenism tried to remove all other Egyptian pantheon with just one god - Aten, the sun disk. At that time, Amun was greatest of the Egyptian gods. Egyptians normally could and have accepted new gods into pantheon, thus showing far more tolerance. Aten was worshipped several generations before Akhenaton's time. Tension arose between Akhenaton and the priests of Amun. Atenism have proven to be unpopular in Egypt. Even the populace didn't find this new religion attractive, because it offered nothing for the ordinary Egyptians. Such was it unpopularity, Akhenaton was forced to abandon the capital (Thebes) and retreated to secluded part of Egypt.

It just showed that all monotheistic religion have this intolerant "us vs them" mentality.

 

[Vassal]

I think that when both Christians and Muslims can go beyond saying that "My religion is right and everyone else's religions are wrong" mentality, then it would be step forward.

If I were to say other religions were correct, then I would in effect be saying that Christianity is false. There is only one God, the God of the Bible, and that there is only one way to be reconciled with God, through Christ Jesus, so how can any other religion be true? There are no other gods. There is no Allah, there is no mother nature goddess, there is no council of gods, or whatever else people have come up with. If I were to acknowledge any of these as true, then I must also deny that there is one true God. How would that be a step forward?