Muslims and Christians

[MaddLlama]

If I were to say other religions were correct, then I would in effect be saying that Christianity is false. There is only one God, the God of the Bible, and that there is only one way to be reconciled with God, through Christ Jesus, so how can any other religion be true? There are no other gods. There is no Allah, there is no mother nature goddess, there is no council of gods, or whatever else people have come up with. If I were to acknowledge any of these as true, then I must also deny that there is one true God. How would that be a step forward?

The point is, can you put that aside long enough to get along with people who think you're wrong, and/or believe your God doesn't exist? Or, further yet, look at their religion and try to respect it, or even find something in it that puts you on common ground with that person?

 

[Sahar]

I don't have except respect and love for our Christian fellows and for their religion. Absolutely, there is much truth in Christianity. Viewing Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) as a false prophet, is their beliefs and i respect that and viewing their religion as the true one is their right as it's mine. I can't see how this can muddle our relation with each other and our understanding to each other. The common ground that we have is very huge, and our differences should be respected. It's that simple.
But in fact, the mentality of medieval Europe about Islam is still being inherited until now in the minds of some Christians and some westerns which was related to political and military conflicts between Muslims and Christians from Europe specifically the Crusades. But also what happen nowadays makes the situation worse. How Muslims are viewed in the current time is as it asserts the inherited superstitions about Islam. I also think that the problem of Muslims is with the west and i won't say with Christians but the historical conflict between Muslims and "Europe" is still has its impacts in muslims' minds.

I want to end this part of my post by a verse from the Holy Quran;
"and you will find the nearest of them in affection to the believers those who say, "We are Christians." That is because among them are priests and monks and because they are not arrogant."

last time i check, a messenger is the one who conveys message. but i could be wrong. we are all slave (if you may call it) of Allah the almighty does that mean we are messengers too?

"the message was to worship God alone and show us the right examples to follow practically" <-- but he (muhammad) never seek acknowledgment from us that he is a prophet. he for himself knows he is a prophet. he doesnt need to reinforce that we should bare witness that he's the messenger in order to be accepted in god's grace. god alone acknowledges him. and who better to acknowledge if not god.

what i'm getting at is, when abraham was the prophet, his followers bare witness that there's no god but god (Allah) without "i bare witness that Ambraham is the messenger of god"

when moses was the prophet, his followers bare witness that there's no god but god (Allah) without "i bare witness that moses is the messenger of god"

when jesus was the prophet, his followers bare witness that there's no god but god (Allah) without "i bare witness that jesus is the messenger of god" (i'm talking about jesus in muslim's point of view which is not applicable for some christian denomination)


so why should they be any difference when it comes to muhammad? the other prophets are just as god fearing as muhammad.

You don't make any sense!!!!!

but he (muhammad) never seek acknowledgment from us that he is a prophet. he for himself knows he is a prophet. he doesnt need to reinforce that we should bare witness that he's the messenger in order to be accepted in god's grace.

According to my knowledge, this is not the case! The first pillar of the religion of Islam is witnessing there is no God but Allah and witnessing Muhammad is the messenger of Allah i.e. The whole Islam is built on this. That's why also muslims say this shahadah at least 10 times per day during Salah (prayer)! But most important this is not a shahada said by tongues but by hearts first then every part of our bodies acknowledge it which drives us to act according to this shahada (witness).

when jesus was the prophet, his followers bare witness that there's no god but god (Allah) without "i bare witness that jesus is the messenger of god"

As i said, that doesn't make any sense.

 

[Sahar]

once again i believe this matter its not suitable to be brought up in this forum. so i will cease to address the matter and continue picking my nose LOL

It seems i was late! :sad4:

 

[Vassal]

The point is, can you put that aside long enough to get along with people who think you're wrong, and/or believe your God doesn't exist? Or, further yet, look at their religion and try to respect it, or even find something in it that puts you on common ground with that person?

Depends what you mean by respect. I don't go up to non-Christians that I see and tell them they're going to hell because they haven't accepted Jesus as their savior, but I will never acknowledge other religions as true, because they aren't. I don't see how encouraging someone to believe in a false religion helps them in any way. It may make them feel good, but the truth is more important than hurt feelings.

One of the guys I work with has gay life-partner but I don't treat him any differently than anyone else I work with. If the topic of religion ever came up I'd tell him that I think he's a nice guy and that I don't think any less of him as a person because he's a homosexual, but if he doesn't turn from his homosexual lifestyle and accept Jesus as his savior then he is going to hell. I don't feel the need to offer this up comment voluntarily because I'm sure he's heard it a thousand times before and it would only make him defensive and even more alienated from the truth. This is why the Bible gives so many warnings about homosexuality, not because it is a worse sin than any other, but because it is harder to turn from. If I were to tell him now there's no chance at all he'd listen because, one, I've only been working there for a month, two, I'm a kid as far as he's concerned, and three, it's too ingrained in his lifestyle. Maybe in the future, if something huge happens in his life that makes him question his lifestyle, then maybe he'd consider what I had to say, but for now it is best to wait.

If that's the kind of respect you're talking about, then yes, I do respect other people's beliefs. I don't try to force other people to become Christian, but I will never acknowledge other religions as truth.

 

[gnostic]

Seriously though, do the research. The biggest mass murders all happened in atheist governments. The USSR and the People's Republic of China both classified themselves as atheist states, and they account for the majority of the world's democide (which is includes any type of mass murdering, including government induced famine and disease, but not war-dead) in the 20th century, about 139 million people. This is made even more startling by the fact that the data for PRC only includes 1949-1987, in which 77 million people were killed, and 1917-1987 for the USSR, in which 62 million people were killed. Thats 139 times as many people that were killed in the Crusades. And remember, those numbers don't include people killed in wars, they're just an atheist governments killing civilians. So while the vast majority of religions kill people spiritually, they're pretty good at not killing people physically.

The communist governments in both USSR and China may have been atheistic in stance, but they didn't kill people in the name of atheism. It was done more for political ideology than a religious one.

Gee. People are so pathetically dumb that they can't distinguish politics from religion. Yes, these governments were non-theistic, but that doesn't mean it was done for the sake of atheism. USSR and China don't follow any atheistic doctrine, because there is no such thing as a doctrine for "atheism". If you are really serious about linking atheism with communism, then you should read up ideology on communism, and you would find no mention of atheism, or atheism as being the accepted form of practices in communist countries.

Considered this, vassal.

There are far more Christians than atheists and agnostics in the US. Right? So how many of them of each of these groups are in prisons? You would find that far more Christians that are serving in prisons throughout the US than those of atheists and agnostics.

Just because Christians believe in a religion, religion doesn't guarantee that the Christians would be moral people, no matter how much doctrines Christianity teach.

I consider myself as non-theist, but I don't go around killing or maiming people for the sake of agnosticism. I don't own a gun, and I have not resort to violence, in the name of agnosticism. How many devout Christians own a gun or guns.

 

[Popeyesays]

Gnosticism can be highly arrogant if one starts believing that the mystery's solution is only for the 'chosen'.

The fact is that God is MYSTERY, and we will never KNOW all. God is God and we are not. So our knowledge is limited by being the created not the Creator.

Can empty dogma and tradition obscure true religion? Sure it can, not only can it do so, but given enough time it will always do so. The Religion of God is always renewed, but each Religion that grows up around a single Messenger eventually becomes senescent borne down by the weight of its traditions without concern for truth.

Now, whether the proper place to decry the value of modern technological civilization is on one's computer while connected to the internet, I'll leave to others.

regards,
Scott

 

[lew0049]

The communist governments in both USSR and China may have been atheistic in stance, but they didn't kill people in the name of atheism. It was done more for political ideology than a religious one.

Gee. People are so pathetically dumb that they can't distinguish politics from religion. Yes, these governments were non-theistic, but that doesn't mean it was done for the sake of atheism. USSR and China don't follow any atheistic doctrine, because there is no such thing as a doctrine for "atheism". If you are really serious about linking atheism with communism, then you should read up ideology on communism, and you would find no mention of atheism, or atheism as being the accepted form of practices in communist countries.

Considered this, vassal.

There are far more Christians than atheists and agnostics in the US. Right? So how many of them of each of these groups are in prisons? You would find that far more Christians that are serving in prisons throughout the US than those of atheists and agnostics.

Just because Christians believe in a religion, religion doesn't guarantee that the Christians would be moral people, no matter how much doctrines Christianity teach.

I consider myself as non-theist, but I don't go around killing or maiming people for the sake of agnosticism. I don't own a gun, and I have not resort to violence, in the name of agnosticism. How many devout Christians own a gun or guns.

In many ways this is true, that is if you simply consider someone that goes to church as a Christian - which I do not. And this would dramatical change any type of data you gathered about Christians being a large some of people in prison.
However, I would deinitely disagree about more Christians than atheists/agnostics is the US.

As far as the morality is considered, Christians don't need a doctrine to tell us about what is morally right and wrong, this is something that we all have - although some are definitely mistaken/misguided on their perceptions of this...

 

[lew0049]

So what is it that is holding you to be a moral person though?

 

[gnostic]

If I were to say other religions were correct, then I would in effect be saying that Christianity is false. There is only one God, the God of the Bible, and that there is only one way to be reconciled with God, through Christ Jesus, so how can any other religion be true? There are no other gods. There is no Allah, there is no mother nature goddess, there is no council of gods, or whatever else people have come up with.

So what. I don't believe in your God too. Is your religion correct, when there are no single evidence of your god's existence, except some testimonies from ancient people? To me, your god is no more than myth than to me than Allah, Egyptian and Greek pantheon.

Your god is no more real to me than that of Zeus, ghoul and goblin, the easter bunny and the Fairy Godmother. Now, unless you can prove to me that God is any more real than what I have mentioned, then you are essentially believing in a false god and you are worshipping in a false religion.

Do you see how futile argument is? You can claim your religion to be black-and-blue in the face, but since you have no more evidence than any other religion or belief, then your belief of what you considered to be the right one, is one based on blind faith and false hope.

Your claim of belonging to right religion is based nothing but faith alone, just like all the other religions. Saying that you are right and others wrong will get you nowhere, vassal. It certainly doesn't promote peace.

 

[lew0049]

Depends what you mean by respect. I don't go up to non-Christians that I see and tell them they're going to hell because they haven't accepted Jesus as their savior, but I will never acknowledge other religions as true, because they aren't. I don't see how encouraging someone to believe in a false religion helps them in any way. It may make them feel good, but the truth is more important than hurt feelings.

One of the guys I work with has gay life-partner but I don't treat him any differently than anyone else I work with. If the topic of religion ever came up I'd tell him that I think he's a nice guy and that I don't think any less of him as a person because he's a homosexual, but if he doesn't turn from his homosexual lifestyle and accept Jesus as his savior then he is going to hell. I don't feel the need to offer this up comment voluntarily because I'm sure he's heard it a thousand times before and it would only make him defensive and even more alienated from the truth. This is why the Bible gives so many warnings about homosexuality, not because it is a worse sin than any other, but because it is harder to turn from. If I were to tell him now there's no chance at all he'd listen because, one, I've only been working there for a month, two, I'm a kid as far as he's concerned, and three, it's too ingrained in his lifestyle. Maybe in the future, if something huge happens in his life that makes him question his lifestyle, then maybe he'd consider what I had to say, but for now it is best to wait.

If that's the kind of respect you're talking about, then yes, I do respect other people's beliefs. I don't try to force other people to become Christian, but I will never acknowledge other religions as truth.

Be careful with your words here b/c God judges everyone according. Meaning, a 'homosexuals' lifestyle might be wrong (as I believe it is) but I am in no position to judge the actions of others as you/I are unworthy i Gods eyes.

 

[Vassal]

The communist governments in both USSR and China may have been atheistic in stance, but they didn't kill people in the name of atheism. It was done more for political ideology than a religious one.

Gee. People are so pathetically dumb that they can't distinguish politics from religion. Yes, these governments were non-theistic, but that doesn't mean it was done for the sake of atheism. USSR and China don't follow any atheistic doctrine, because there is no such thing as a doctrine for "atheism". If you are really serious about linking atheism with communism, then you should read up ideology on communism, and you would find no mention of atheism, or atheism as being the accepted form of practices in communist countries.

I consider myself as non-theist, but I don't go around killing or maiming people for the sake of agnosticism. I don't own a gun.

Considered this, vassal.

There are far more Christians than atheists and agnostics in the US. Right? So how many of them of each of these groups are in prisons? You would find that far more Christians that are serving in prisons throughout the US than those of atheists and agnostics.

Just because Christians believe in a religion, religion doesn't guarantee that the Christians would be moral people, no matter how much doctrines Christianity teach.

Where did I say that atheism was the cause for those murders? Nowhere. I only pointed out the fact that they were atheists states to show that they weren't theist states. The common factor in 98%+ of all democide deaths is power given solely to a small group of individuals in either a Totalitarian or Authoritarian type government. It's just shows the evil nature of humanity in general, which is why I find it amusing when people say it is unjust for God to send people to hell. There are many people who would do the same things as these Totalitarian leaders did if they had the chance.

 

[gnostic]

As far as the morality is considered, Christians don't need a doctrine to tell us about what is morally right and wrong, this is something that we all have - although some are definitely mistaken/misguided on their perceptions of this...

Exactly. I don't need religion to be a moral person. I am not perfect (and have never claim to be perfect), but I have principles and code of conducts that are just as strong as any Christian or Muslim.

It really depends on upbringing and background, not some god or gods.

Of course, even with proper upbringing and in the right environment, people can still move out of the norm, go against principles, and still become immoral. People are far too complex, and the world is not black-and-white.

However, I would deinitely disagree about more Christians than atheists/agnostics is the US.

Go find the statistics on religion in the US, and you would find that atheists and agnostics are minority in the US. I don't remember numbers, but there were recent statistics on this. The UK has far more atheists and agnostics than in the US (in percentage wise), but the groups are still smaller than Christian group.

 

[lew0049]

So what. I don't believe in your God too. Is your religion correct, when there are no single evidence of your god's existence, except some testimonies from ancient people? To me, your god is no more than myth than to me than Allah, Egyptian and Greek pantheon.

Your god is no more real to me than that of Zeus, ghoul and goblin, the easter bunny and the Fairy Godmother. Now, unless you can prove to me that God is any more real than what I have mentioned, then you are essentially believing in a false god and you are worshipping in a false religion.

Do you see how futile argument is? You can claim your religion to be black-and-blue in the face, but since you have no more evidence than any other religion or belief, then your belief of what you considered to be the right one, is one based on blind faith and false hope.

Your claim of belonging to right religion is based nothing but faith alone, just like all the other religions. Saying that you are right and others wrong will get you nowhere, vassal. It certainly doesn't promote peace.

I would say you are wrong on this one gnostic, I was once an atheist/then agnostic but through research I found that Christianity is a leap of faith, but not a bling leap of faith like others religions. Before you look at the evidence for manipulation in the Bible (as I initially did), you should look for the exact opposite b/c there is a great amount of it.
You can look at the book of Isaiah( which included nearly 100 prophecies about the Messiah) and see that it is not a "blind" leap of faith. Th Dead Sea Scrolls show that the book has almost nearly been reliably preserved over the last 2000+ years.

If you are on forums to search for 100% evidence of there being a God then you and I both know that you won't find it.

Just b/c there is not 100% evidence of a "God" does not mean that it is a false God, no more than you evidence for there being no God.

 

[lew0049]

Exactly. I don't need religion to be a moral person. I am not perfect (and have never claim to be perfect), but I have principles and code of conducts that are just as strong as any Christian or Muslim.

It really depends on upbringing and background, not some god or gods.

Of course, even with proper upbringing and in the right environment, people can still move out of the norm, go against principles, and still become immoral. People are far too complex, and the world is not black-and-white.

See, I completely understand your position as I used to be in your place, but I do not believe that your upbringing/envirnoment account for your morality - yes it can positively/negatively affect it but I don't see how it is possible for it to be the foundation. The question becomes, if people can (and they do) go against the 'right' morals then why are there no societies/civilizations over the last 2000 yrs that indicate such behavior? Yes, some aspects of societies change but there is still a higher moral standard that all (99%) people imploy. There are many examples that I found/thought of that show that it is something outside of a persons upbringing/environment which indicates a higher power. Ugh, hopefully Ill be more motivated tmw. to expand on this, but I am go to sleep! Have a good one

 

[Vassal]

Be careful with your words here b/c God judges everyone according. Meaning, a 'homosexuals' lifestyle might be wrong (as I believe it is) but I am in no position to judge the actions of others as you/I are unworthy i Gods eyes.

Obviously you confused on the definition of judging. Telling someone they are sinning is not judging. Jesus told people all the time when they were sinning. Judging someone means to declare that someone is less worthy of God's grace than you yourself are. I clearly said I don’t think of him as less of a person because he is a homosexual, so I’m not saying I deserve God’s grace more than he does, but the Bible clearly states that homosexuals and disbelievers will not be saved, which is why he won't be saved it he doesn't stop living a homosexual lifestyle.

Mark 16:16 (NASB) "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 (NASB) 9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

 

[worshiper]

It seems i was late! :sad4:

thnx for noticing me but i dont think you understand me. i was speaking not in a view point of a muslim as "you" know it. i was speaking on a view point of a muslim as "i" know it.

Islam as i know it is one that submits to god the almighty. that way i keep the integrity of my undertanding then same as Adam's, Moses', the rest of the prophets and Muhammad's understanding.

Islam as you know it is the one that submits to god and "must" acknowlegde Muhammad as the messenger. so in a way you are different from Adam who never bare witness that Muhammad as a messenger, Moses who does the same and every prophet that is sent to earth by God the almighty.

my shahada will sound like this ... "i bare witness that there is no God but God (Allah)" which will be simmilar to Adam's, Moses', Abraham's and all of the other prophets including prophet Muhammad's shahada. that shahada is timeless

whereas your shahada will be.. "i bare witness that there is no God but God (Allah) and i bare witness that Muhammad is the messenger of God". would you suggest prophet Muhammad's own shahada will be the same as yours?

this is my point of view of what Islam is. i am entitle to my point of view. just as much as you are to yours. read my 1st post in this forum coz i think you miss my point. i do honestly wholeheartedly believe that Muhammad is a messenger of God .. but baring witness of his prophethood is unnecessary coz i'm am not alive in his time and i cant be a witness to that. how ever, me, acknowledging him as a messenger, is between me and my prophet. i dont have to put him in "one breath" with my creator.


i hope i made myself clear and i hope people will not post any reply in this forum. lets stick to the topic. however if you think you need to speak out, pls create a new topic regarding this and inform me.

so please ... enjoy the rest of your day and keep your nose clean

 

[A. Ben-Shema]

Yes, I am better than you because my font is bigger and underlined.

The reason I use a larger font size is because of poor eyesight. I usually also enlarge the font of the people I am replying to in order to read their message.

Seriously though, do the research. The biggest mass murders all happened in atheist governments. The USSR and the People's Republic of China both classified themselves as atheist states, and they account for the majority of the world's democide (which is includes any type of mass murdering, including government induced famine and disease, but not war-dead) in the 20th century, about 139 million people. This is made even more startling by the fact that the data for PRC only includes 1949-1987, in which 77 million people were killed, and 1917-1987 for the USSR, in which 62 million people were killed. Thats 139 times as many people that were killed in the Crusades

. And remember, those numbers don't include people killed in wars, they're just an atheist governments killing civilians. So while the vast majority of religions kill people spiritually, they're pretty good at not killing people physically.

Democide Information: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democide

Actually, I did not say that others, including atheists, were innocent of such atrocities. Only that religions (which are supposed to be setting a good, loving, and peaceful example!) have been murdering innocent people (e.g. so-called heretics) and burning books throughout history. They even murdered many Prophets of God - including Jesus!

 

[worshiper]

The reason I use a larger font size is because of poor eyesight. I usually also enlarge the font of the people I am replying to in order to read their message.

try CTRL+MOUSESCROLL-DOWN ... it works everytime for me.

anyway i think this forum doesnt ask you to oblige to other belief. rather it asks you wether you have the ability to agree to disagree and still get along just fine.

if you think that you are right and that the others are wrong, good for you. but can you get along with those "wrong" people? and respect the fact that they have as much of a right as you to practice their belief?

thinking that people who doesnt have the same belief as you as underprivileged or "tools of satan" is one thing

but telling them to their face and expecting them to follow you is another thing.

i would rather use the live by example method. sadly a lot people are "branders"

 

[A. Ben-Shema]

try CTRL+MOUSESCROLL-DOWN ... it works everytime for me.

anyway i think this forum doesnt ask you to oblige to other belief. rather it asks you wether you have the ability to agree to disagree and still get along just fine.

if you think that you are right and that the others are wrong, good for you. but can you get along with those "wrong" people? and respect the fact that they have as much of a right as you to practice their belief?

thinking that people who doesnt have the same belief as you as underprivileged or "tools of satan" is one thing

but telling them to their face and expecting them to follow you is another thing.

i would rather use the live by example method. sadly a lot people are "branders"

Of course everyone is free to follow whatever they wish. I have not, nor will, make any demands on anyone. But I do not agree that we should keep quiet if we disagree with someone about something. What on earth do you think is the point of discussion forums? And how are we to say something, if it is not 'face to face'? I am not the kind of person who says things behind people's backs! I am sorry if you misunderstand me, but I say what I feel, and tell the truth as I see it, no matter how bluntly. I am not a dictator, that is the way of religion, and I find religion to be abhorrent.

Peace & Love

P.S. I only have a two button mouse (no scroll wheel) and a 14" monitor! Any other suggestions?

 

[worshiper]

well Ben (may i call you that?)

there is a difference between

"All religion are tools of satan"
and
"in my opinion All religion are tools of satan"

the previous is an accusation while the later is a statement of view. both can be told bluntly but expect no same reaction for them.

p/s: use CTRL+(PLUS button) or CTRL+(MINUS button) to increase or decrease the font size. works with both firefox and internet explorer.