Muslims and Christians

[A. Ben-Shema]

well Ben (may i call you that?)

there is a difference between

"All religion are tools of satan"
and
"in my opinion All religion are tools of satan"

the previous is an accusation while the later is a statement of view. both can be told bluntly but expect no same reaction for them.

p/s: use CTRL+(PLUS button) or CTRL+(MINUS button) to increase or decrease the font size. works with both firefox and internet explorer.

Thanks for the info on CTRL+, you've taught me something very useful.

Ok, I understand what you are saying about using the phrase: 'in my opinion'. However, would you recommend using such a phrase to someone who is, for instance, driving on the wrong side of the road, i.e. In my opinion you are driving on the wrong side of the road?

If you had received a vision of the Shekhinah (the Beatific Vision, or Vision of the Light of God), and God had revealed certain things to you, would you say, in my opinion God wants us to do this or that? Or would you say, as Moses, the Prophets, and their disciples said, that THIS IS WHAT IS TRUE?

P.S. Yes, please call me Ben (or Bob). If you wish to listen to a radio interview with me, which will explain a lot of things, just CLICK HERE.

Peace & Love

 

[maro]

my shahada will sound like this ... "i bare witness that there is no God but God (Allah)" which will be simmilar to Adam's, Moses', Abraham's and all of the other prophets including prophet Muhammad's shahada. that shahada is timeless

just for the record worshiper, Prophet's Muhammad's shahada is ( i witness that there is no god but (AllAH) and that "MUHammed " is his messenger ")

he was saying it "in the his prayers " the same way every muslim say it

it's not us who raise "MUhammed " (PBUH) to a high place ,to the degree that we say his name after the name of "ALLAH" ,

Allah is the one who raised his last and beloved prophet to this degree ,
we didn't invent this "SHAHADA " , we were orderd by allah to say it that way

please listen to what the quran says "worshipper " ;

[3:31] Say: "If ye do love Allah, follow me: Allah will love you and forgive you your sins; for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful

[3:32] Say: "Obey Allah and His Messenger": but if they turn back, Allah loveth not those who reject Faith.

 

[worshiper]

just for the record worshiper, Prophet's Muhammad's shahada is ( i witness that there is no god but (AllAH) and that "MUHammed " is his messenger ")

nobody can be a witness for himself and this conversation is off topic

 

[worshiper]

If you had received a vision of the Shekhinah (the Beatific Vision, or Vision of the Light of God), and God had revealed certain things to you, would you say, in my opinion God wants us to do this or that? Or would you say, as Moses, the Prophets, and their disciples said, that THIS IS WHAT IS TRUE?

well if you look at it that way i guess its ok...

but i believe this forum focuses on the idea that we already established that we all fundamentally dont agree. but the question is, are there any chances that we can ever live in harmony despite our differences?

 

[Popeyesays]

A vision is a personal thing. The experience of Revelation that a Messenger of God experiences is another thing entirely.

I would never think of myself as holding a message for others, that would be grotesquely arrogant. I am just a man, I am not a Manifestation of God.

Have I ever received a dream of mystic and religious import for me? Yes, but it was for me, and its significance is personal. I will not hold it up as a message for others, it's not my place to do so.

Jesus, for One, was a manifestation of God, and He placed a True Message out there for mankind.

Since then Chriostianity, under the guidance of its clergy, has allowed that message to be placed behind veils of tradition passing for revelation. The clergy did this for many reasons, a few of the reasons were selfless. The majority of those reasons were selfish. Since they had influence, power, respect and a livlihood from their status most of those invented traditions were to maintain that influence, power, respect and livlihood.

This is what happens when a religion ceases being "Truth" and become senescent. It's not the fault of the Founder Prophet that it happens. The seasons of establishment, maturation, harvest and winter stand for religions as well.

The ulama of Islam has done much the same disservice for the religion of Muhammad.

Now why does God allow this to happen? Because He has planned for those Religions to become senescent and knows that His covenant will be renewed in due time by the arrival of a new Messenger.

There really are not 'many paths' to God--there is only ONE. And the way along that path is marked with milestones and lights--those milestones are the Great Revelations One after the Other, stretching infinitely into the distance.

It is the way of men that some are terrified because the lights along the way grow dim and will not venture forth from where they are for fear there will not be another light along the way.

that's an empty fear.

Regards,
Scott

 

[A. Ben-Shema]

well if you look at it that way i guess its ok...

but i believe this forum focuses on the idea that we already established that we all fundamentally dont agree. but the question is, are there any chances that we can ever live in harmony despite our differences?

Are you aware that there is a 'psychological' battle going on within each of us - between mind and Spirit?
We have to live in harmony 'within' ourselves before there can be harmony between each individual. As I have said elsewhere, it is the unenlightened 'first-born' mind which causes all the problems in this world. Until this mind is conquered by the Spirit of God, there will never be true Peace and Harmony.

Peace & Love

 

[Popeyesays]

Ben,

There only needs to be peace between TWO individuals, then as that linkage grows your unity of civilization grows.

it will never BE perfect, oit can only work toward perfection.

If each person gives up on being community until he or she is perfect from teh inside--nothing will ever happen.

We were created perfect, but we've worked hard to become imperfect. It's a process not an inventory item.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Booko]

Ok, I understand what you are saying about using the phrase: 'in my opinion'. However, would you recommend using such a phrase to someone who is, for instance, driving on the wrong side of the road, i.e. In my opinion you are driving on the wrong side of the road?

The difference being, it is quite easy to prove objectively whether someone is actually driving on the wrong side of the road.

There are no objective proofs for God's existence, so "in my opinion" fits much better, and actually makes it more likely to get along with those who have other beliefs.

 

[Booko]

P.S. I only have a two button mouse (no scroll wheel) and a 14" monitor! Any other suggestions?

A few suggestions aside from worshipper's:

IF you have Firefox you can get an extension that will put a handy icon on your toolbar so you can change font size with a simple click. If you want I can give you a link to the proper URL.

Also in pretty much any browser I know of, there's an option to increase or decrease font size -- it'll be under the Edit menu.

 

[worshiper]

Ben,

There only needs to be peace between TWO individuals, then as that linkage grows your unity of civilization grows.

it will never BE perfect, oit can only work toward perfection.

If each person gives up on being community until he or she is perfect from teh inside--nothing will ever happen.
Regards,
Scott

i agree with popeye...
fighting the demon inside is a continuous process (battle if u may). it varies from a person to another person.

but life must go on.

 

[A. Ben-Shema]

Ben,

There only needs to be peace between TWO individuals, then as that linkage grows your unity of civilization grows.

it will never BE perfect, oit can only work toward perfection.

If each person gives up on being community until he or she is perfect from teh inside--nothing will ever happen.

We were created perfect, but we've worked hard to become imperfect. It's a process not an inventory item.

Regards,
Scott

In truth, there only needs to be unity between the individual and God. That is the PRIME purpose of life, whatever anyone believes. When we are united to God, all else is not our concern, for we have fulfilled our task, and God will guide us after that.

 

[Popeyesays]

In truth, there only needs to be unity between the individual and God. That is the PRIME purpose of life, whatever anyone believes. When we are united to God, all else is not our concern, for we have fulfilled our task, and God will guide us after that.

There cannot be unity with God if there is not a recognition that mankind is One Race and creation. "No man is an island," as John Donne tells us.

Regards,
Scott

 

[A. Ben-Shema]

There cannot be unity with God if there is not a recognition that mankind is One Race and creation. "No man is an island," as John Donne tells us.

Regards,
Scott

What you say is completely baseless and untrue. Of course one can be united with God, even if the rest of mankind chooses to turn their back to God. What have others to do with our own individual Spiritual journey? I really do not know how you can believe such things.

 

[Popeyesays]

What you say is completely baseless and untrue. Of course one can be united with God, even if the rest of mankind chooses to turn their back to God. What have others to do with our own individual Spiritual journey? I really do not know how you can believe such things.

"For God so loved the world . . ."

"XXXV. Ponder a while. What is it that prompted, in every Dispensation, the peoples of the earth to shun the Manifestation of the All-Merciful? What could have impelled them to turn away from Him and to challenge His authority? Were men to meditate on these words which have flowed from the Pen of the Divine Ordainer, they would, one and all, hasten to embrace the truth of this God-given, and ever-enduring Revelation, and would testify to that which He Himself hath solemnly affirmed. It is the veil of idle imaginations which, in the days of the Manifestations of the Unity of God and the Day Springs of His everlasting glory, hath intervened, and will continue to intervene, between them and the rest of mankind. For in those days, He Who is the Eternal Truth manifesteth Himself in conformity with that which He Himself hath purposed, and not according to the desires and expectations of men. Even as He hath revealed: "So oft, then, as an Apostle cometh to you with that which your souls desire not, do ye swell with pride, and treat some as impostors, and slay others."
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 82)

"2. And verily this Brotherhood of yours is a single Brotherhood, and I am your Lord and Cherisher: therefore fear Me (and no other).
53. But people have cut off their affair (of unity), between them, into sects: each party rejoices in that which is with itself.
54. But leave them in their confused ignorance for a time.
55. Do they think that because We have granted them abundance of wealth and sons,
56. We would hasten them on in every good? Nay, they do not understand.
57. Verily those who live in awe for fear of their Lord;
58. Those who believe in the Signs of their Lord;
59. Those who join not (in worship) partners with their Lord;
60. And those who dispense their charity with their hearts full of fear, because they will return to their Lord -- "

Qur'an, Surah 23, Yusuf Ali

"1. Unity of heart, and unity of mind, freedom from hatred, do I procure for you. Do ye take delight in one another, as a cow in her (new-) born calf!
2. The son shall be devoted to his father, be of the same mind with his mother; the wife shall speak honied, sweet, words to her husband!
3. The brother shall not hate the brother, and the sister not the sister! Harmonious, devoted to the same purpose, speak ye words in kindly spirit!"
(Vedas, Atharva Veda)

"133,1 A Song of Ascents; of David. {N}
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!
133,2 It is like the precious oil upon the head, {N}
coming down upon the beard; even Aaron's beard, {N}
that cometh down upon the collar of his garments;
133,3 Like the dew of Hermon, that cometh down upon the mountains of Zion; {N}
for there the LORD commanded the blessing, {N}
even life for ever. {P}"
(Kesuvim (Writings), Tehillim (Psalms))

"68. O CHILDREN OF MEN!
Know ye not why We created you all from the same dust? That no one should exalt himself over the other. Ponder at all times in your hearts how ye were created. Since We have created you all from one same substance it is incumbent on you to be even as one soul, to walk with the same feet, eat with the same mouth and dwell in the same land, that from your inmost being, by your deeds and actions, the signs of oneness and the essence of detachment may be made manifest. Such is My counsel to you, O concourse of light! Heed ye this counsel that ye may obtain the fruit of holiness from the tree of wondrous glory."
(Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words)


Regards,
Scott

 

[A. Ben-Shema]

Scott

Matt 6:33 "But seek first His Kingdom and His Righteousness, and all these things will be added to you."

Peace & Love

 

[Popeyesays]

Scott

Matt 6:33 "But seek first His Kingdom and His Righteousness, and all these things will be added to you."

Peace & Love

To undertake the search for God is the responsibility of every human being.

"CXXV. O My brother! When a true seeker determineth to take the step of search in the path leading unto the knowledge of the Ancient of Days, he must, before all else, cleanse his heart, which is the seat of the revelation of the inner mysteries of God, from the obscuring dust of all acquired knowledge, and the allusions of the embodiments of satanic fancy. He must purge his breast, which is the sanctuary of the abiding love of the Beloved, of every defilement, and sanctify his soul from all that pertaineth to water and clay, from all shadowy and ephemeral attachments. He must so cleanse his heart that no remnant of either love or hate may linger therein, lest that love blindly incline him to error, or that hate repel him away from the truth. Even as thou dost witness in this Day how most of the people, because of such love and hate, are bereft of the immortal Face, have strayed far from the Embodiments of the Divine mysteries, and, shepherdless, are roaming through the wilderness of oblivion and error.
That seeker must, at all times, put his trust in God, must renounce the peoples of the earth, must detach himself from the world of dust, and cleave unto Him Who is the Lord of Lords. He must never 265 seek to exalt himself above any one, must wash away from the tablet of his heart every trace of pride and vain-glory, must cling unto patience and resignation, observe silence and refrain from idle talk. For the tongue is a smoldering fire, and excess of speech a deadly poison. Material fire consumeth the body, whereas the fire of the tongue devoureth both heart and soul. The force of the former lasteth but for a time, whilst the effects of the latter endureth a century.
That seeker should, also, regard backbiting as grievous error, and keep himself aloof from its dominion, inasmuch as backbiting quencheth the light of the heart, and extinguisheth the life of the soul. He should be content with little, and be freed from all inordinate desire. He should treasure the companionship of them that have renounced the world, and regard avoidance of boastful and worldly people a precious benefit. At the dawn of every day he should commune with God, and, with all his soul, persevere in the quest of his Beloved. He should consume every wayward thought with the flame of His loving mention, and, with the swiftness of lightning, pass by all else save Him. He should succor the dispossessed, and never withhold his favor from the destitute. He should show kindness to animals, how much more unto his fellow-man, to him who is endowed with the power of utterance. He should not hesitate to offer up his life for his Beloved, nor allow the censure 266 of the people to turn him away from the Truth. He should not wish for others that which he doth not wish for himself, nor promise that which he doth not fulfil. With all his heart he should avoid fellowship with evil-doers, and pray for the remission of their sins. He should forgive the sinful, and never despise his low estate, for none knoweth what his own end shall be. How often hath a sinner attained, at the hour of death, to the essence of faith, and, quaffing the immortal draught, hath taken his flight unto the Concourse on high! And how often hath a devout believer, at the hour of his soul's ascension, been so changed as to fall into the nethermost fire!
Our purpose in revealing these convincing and weighty utterances is to impress upon the seeker that he should regard all else beside God as transient, and count all things save Him, Who is the Object of all adoration, as utter nothingness."
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 264)

Regards,
Scott

 

[Booko]

I thought this thread was originally about how Muslims and Christians can get along?

 

[Popeyesays]

I thought this thread was originally about how Muslims and Christians can get along?

Hey, it's survived hijack by the nay-sayers, the yea-sayers and the let's talk about something else-sayers.

We're doing pretty good.

Regards,
Scott

 

[worshiper]

I thought this thread was originally about how Muslims and Christians can get along?

i'm with you there bro Booko

 

[Yəhošafat]

I noticed that this was title Muslims and Christians, and yet we have many Baha'i who come to reconcile both faiths together....

Muslims on the left, Christians on the right, and Baha'i in the middle.