Muslims, Do you consider Zarathustra as a Prophet?

[paarsurrey]

Personally, the main scriptures are the Vedas (esp. the Upanishads), the Ashtavakra Gita and the writings of any individual who has come to fully know God, who is expressing vidya (vidya is a term for correct knowledge, right knowledge, it refers to knowledge about the deeper truths of reality). These texts, because they fit in my tradition and contain vidya. I do not say that texts of other traditions do not contain vidya, I think it is to be found elsewhere, as these truths are universal.

Is it possible for a human to know G-d fully ? Please
Regards

 

[Kirran]

Is it possible for a human to know G-d fully ? Please
Regards

Not as a human, but through the realisation of themselves as one with God, one attains to the highest knowledge. Whether that is fully knowing God is hard to say, but it's the best one can do. In my understanding.

 

[paarsurrey]

Not as a human, but through the realisation of themselves as one with God, one attains to the highest knowledge. Whether that is fully knowing God is hard to say, but it's the best one can do. In my understanding.

Is it physical being one with G-d of a human being? (coloured in magenta) Please
Regards

 

[Kirran]

Is it physical being one with G-d of a human being? (coloured in magenta) Please
Regards

Before we go down the rabbit hole of interrogation - God is all that exists, any form we see is illusion. So there is ultimately no physical being, everything is God, beyond duality.

Edit: @Rival we are pretty off-topic. I can ask paarsurrey for us to move this to PM if you prefer

 

[paarsurrey]

Zoroaster or Zarathustra talked of prophets in plural, he did not talk that he was the only prophet . The Zorostrians, if they believe in Zoroaster truly, should name the other prophets. A plural is usually of three or more in numbers. Please
Regards

 

[Corthos]

Zoroaster or Zarathustra talked of prophets in plural, he did not talk that he was the only prophet . The Zorostrians, if they believe in Zoroaster truly, should name the other prophets. A plural is usually of three or more in numbers. Please
Regards

Whoops! I was in a hurry and misread what you said. Can I ask where you read that Zoroaster talked of other "prophets"?

 

[paarsurrey]

Whoops! I was in a hurry and misread what you said. Can I ask where you read that Zoroaster talked of other "prophets"?

I mentioned it earlier in the forums in some posts, the search-engines gives one such Post #9. Please
Regards

 

[Corthos]

I mentioned it earlier in the forums in some posts, the search-engines gives one such Post #9. Please
Regards

Interesting...

I've read some of those posts, but something seems off to me... =/

Now, I'd love for anyone to correct me if I'm wrong, but it's my understanding that the texts most likely actually written by Zoroaster were the Gathas themselves, since he lived long before any texts were written. Archaeologists had come to this conclusion due to his songs being presented in an archaic style of poetry that predated any discovered written works (and were most likely preserved as an oral tradition before they were written, as other peoples have also done). If that's the case, and the songs (Gathas) themselves are the most likely and the most accurately preserved words of Zoroaster, where in the Gathas themselves does he speak of Prophets?

After all, it was my understanding that Gathic Zoroastrians adhered to the ideals presented in the Gathas themselves, not in any other writings.

That said, the Gathas presented in http://www.avesta.org/yasna/yasna.htm#y28 are hard to read since they are in King James style English. The only words of "prophet" I saw in the actual Gathas were in reference to Zoroaster himself, from what I could tell... I could be wrong, though, so please correct me if that's the case since me and King James English don't agree with eachother. XD

Here is the version of the Gathas that I read.

http://www.zoroastrian.org/GathaSongs/index.htm

Nowhere did I even see the word "Prophet" in that modern translation. It was compiled by this guy, if you want to read his credentials. =)

http://www.zoroastrian.org/GathaSongs/Gathas_and_Translation.htm

 

[paarsurrey]

Interesting...
I've read some of those posts, but something seems off to me... =/
Now, I'd love for anyone to correct me if I'm wrong, but it's my understanding that the texts most likely actually written by Zoroaster were the Gathas themselves, since he lived long before any texts were written. Archaeologists had come to this conclusion due to his songs being presented in an archaic style of poetry that predated any discovered written works (and were most likely preserved as an oral tradition before they were written, as other peoples have also done). If that's the case, and the songs (Gathas) themselves are the most likely and the most accurately preserved words of Zoroaster, where in the Gathas themselves does he speak of Prophets?
After all, it was my understanding that Gathic Zoroastrians adhered to the ideals presented in the Gathas themselves, not in any other writings.
That said, the Gathas presented in http://www.avesta.org/yasna/yasna.htm#y28 are hard to read since they are in King James style English. The only words of "prophet" I saw in the actual Gathas were in reference to Zoroaster himself, from what I could tell... I could be wrong, though, so please correct me if that's the case since me and King James English don't agree with each
other. XD Here is the version of the Gathas that I read.
http://www.zoroastrian.org/GathaSongs/index.htm
Nowhere did I even see the word "Prophet" in that modern translation. It was compiled by this guy, if you want to read his credentials. =)
http://www.zoroastrian.org/GathaSongs/Gathas_and_Translation.htm

Yasna 13 of the Gathas
" I invoke these lords, and I summon the Bountiful Immortals here, and the Prophets who shall serve us, the wisest as they are, the most scrupulous in their exactness (as) they utter words (of doctrine and of service), the most devoted (to their duties likewise), and the most glorious in their thoughts"

Yasna 20
"yea, as one ascribes righteousness to us who are the prophets (who shall help and bless the people)"
and Yasna 24
"and to those of men who are as yet unborn, and to those of the prophets who will serve us, and will labor to complete the progress and renovation of the world."

Yasna 26
"And (having invoked them) hither, we worship the life, conscience, intelligence, soul and Fravashi of the next of kin, of the saints male and female who have striven after the ritual truth, which are those of the dead and living saints, and which are those also of men as yet unborn, of the future prophets who will help on the renovation, and complete the human progress, with them all. "

Yasna 28
"Grant, O thou Asha, the reward, the blessing of Good Thought; O Piety, give our desire to Vishtaspa and to me; O thou Mazda and King, grant that your Prophet may command a hearing."

Yasna 70
" And these we would declare) in order that we may attain unto that speech which is uttered with (true) religious zeal, or that we may be as prophets of the provinces, that we may succor him who lifts his voice (for Mazda), that we may be as prophets who smite with victory, the befriended of Ahura Mazda, and persons the most useful to Him, holy men (indeed) who think good thoughts, and speak good words, and do good deeds."

http://www.avesta.org/yasna/yasna.htm#y28
Regards

 

[Corthos]

Hmmm... I'm a little confused. You highlight that I said that the texts "most likely actually written by Zoroaster himself were the Gathas," yet you only actually quote 1 stanza from the Gathas themselves, Yasna 28 (the first song).

"Grant, O thou Asha, the reward, the blessing of Good Thought; O Piety, give our desire to Vishtaspa and to me; O thou Mazda and King, grant that your Prophet may command a hearing."

Do you understand what that means?... Hell, I don't. This is the problem with trying to read an archaic style of writing that no one uses anymore... So, let's bypass that nightmare and just go straight to the modern translation.

Grant, O Righteousness, those rewards
which are the gifts of Good Mind.
And you, Serenity, grant
Vishtaspa his wish and mine too.
O Wise One, grant the power through which
we shall successfully proclaim
Your thought-provoking message.

(Gathas: Song 1 stanza 7)

As we can see now more clearly, this is a prayer for clarity of thought (good mind) and for serenity so that they (Zoroaster and Vishtaspa) can better spread Ahura Mazda's "thought provoking message."

See, this is when we need to confront the differences between an Abrahamic prophet, and a Zoroastrian (eastern style) prophet.

Abrahamic prophets are chosen by God to act on God's behalf... Much like Moses when God revealed himself to him as a burning bush, and gave him the task of freeing the Israelites.

Eastern style prophets are seekers of truth... they LOOK for knowledge, and then they TEACH what they learn: their insight. Think of a guru, or some one like Bhudah who achieves enlightenment. They are teachers, not agents of God.

At least, this is what I have gathered so far. It's hard for me to wrap my brain around because, like you, I come from an Abrahamic faith (Christianity). What I have learned so far in my research is that Zoroastrianism is FAR more different than Judaism/Christianity/Islam than I first thought. The similarities of monotheism, geological location, and ideologies are only surface deep. When you go further than that, it's a completely different kind of beast. =)

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Hmmm... I'm a little confused. You highlight that I said that the texts "most likely actually written by Zoroaster himself were the Gathas," yet you only actually quote 1 stanza from the Gathas themselves, Yasna 28 (the first song).

That's just how paarsurrey posts sometimes.

 

[paarsurrey]

I have coloured in red in Post #49 where "Prophets" has been used in plural, please comment on it.
There is no 100% certainty that Zoroaster wrote anything in writing of the scripture from him that has reached us. Right? Please
Regards

 

[Corthos]

I have coloured in red in Post #49 where "Prophets" has been used in plural, please comment on it.
There is no 100% certainty that Zoroaster wrote anything in writing of the scripture from him that has reached us. Right? Please
Regards

Ah, my apologies. It seems the misunderstanding was mine. =) Allow me to clarify my thoughts... I hope you don't mind a long post, as I have a lot of thoughts. XD

Firstly, I feel that it's important to understand something...

AVESTA: YASNA: Sacred Liturgy and Gathas/Hymns of Zarathushtra

This was taken from the title of the link you had sent me for the Yasna. As you can see, there's a "and Gathas"... As far as my understanding goes, not ALL of the Yasna ARE the original Gathas. The only Yasna chapters that ARE the original Gathas are chapters 28-34, chapters 43-46, chapters 47-50, chapter 51, and chapter 53 (in the index, they are in bold). The verses you supplied were from chapters 13, 20, 26, 28, and 70. Of those, only 28 is from the actual Gathas (After all, the original Gathas existed before the Avesta did, and were incorporated into it upon it's creation).

If you believe the Yasna to be Zoroaster's writings, or even feel that the whole Avesta is true, that's great! I personally feel that Zoroaster's message was corrupted over time, since I like to side with Historians on the other text's validity (plus the Gathas were just so much older), but everyone has their own opinions on the matter (though this opinion may change as I research it more). =)

So, onto my thoughts about what the Yasna (and the Gathas) said about prophets...

First of all, from all of the sources I have been reading, it seems that prophets were just viewed differently than what the Torah, the New Testament, or what the Quran portray prophets to be. From what I understand, they are seekers of knowledge who then teach that they have learned. They are enlightened teachers. It is a very eastern concept that is foreign to Abrahamic religions. That's why there are so many translations of the Gathas that don't even use the word "prophet"... In the English language, it just has too many meanings and can get confusing.


a person regarded as an inspired teacher or proclaimer of the will of God.
"the Old Testament prophet Jeremiah"
synonyms: seer, soothsayer, fortune teller, clairvoyant, diviner;More
oracle, augur, sibyl
"the queen was disturbed by the prophet's interpretation of her dreams"

• (among Muslims) Muhammad.
  singular proper noun: Prophet; noun: the Prophet
• (among Mormons) Joseph Smith or one of his successors.
  noun: the Prophet
• a person who advocates or speaks in a visionary way about a new belief, cause, or theory.
  "a prophet of radical individualism"
• a person who makes or claims to be able to make predictions.
  "the anti-technology prophets of doom"

In other words, those who strive to progress Zoroastrianism, spread it's message, and contemplate on it's deeper aspects and teach what they learn are ALL "prophets" of Zoroastrianism. They are "Inspired Teachers" =)

That's one reason I prefer the translation that I referred you to before... He took great care in translating the Gathas in the most accurate way he could, since there have been so many inaccurate or "artistically enhanced" translations in the past.

http://zoroastrian.org/GathaSongs/index.htm

If you prefer the other translation (the King James one), and even believe that it is the most accurate translation, I understand, and that's OK. =) Be careful about touting it as REAL historical evidence that Zoroaster was talking about God appointed actors of his will (a concept that was foreign to Zoroastrianism back then), as there is a lot of conflicting evidence to that statement.

Ultimately, though, the most important thing is research, research, research. Maybe my opinions will change if I find new evidence that contradicts what I have learned so far. =)

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Zoroaster or Zarathustra talked of prophets in plural, he did not talk that he was the only prophet . The Zorostrians, if they believe in Zoroaster truly, should name the other prophets. A plural is usually of three or more in numbers. Please
Regards

Did Zoroaster name or describe these prophets? If not then how are Zoroastrians supposed to name them?

Further, why do you care whether or not Zoroastrians can name the prophets?

 

[tjgillies]

Bahai which is an offshoot of Islam says Zoroaster is a manifestation (prophet)

 

[Corthos]

Bahai which is an offshoot of Islam says Zoroaster is a manifestation (prophet)

I notice that the Baha'i faith and Amadiyya Islam seem to have some similarities like that. Is that a coincidence, or do they share a common root (aside from Islam)?

 

[tjgillies]

I notice that the Baha'i faith and Amadiyya Islam seem to have some similarities like that. Is that a coincidence, or do they share a common root (aside from Islam)?

Islam is our only shared root. We are very similar in our aims though. We support their efforts to bring about a better future for humanity. I think we both manifest a large portion of the truth which is why we are similar.

 

[tjgillies]

I notice that the Baha'i faith and Amadiyya Islam seem to have some similarities like that. Is that a coincidence, or do they share a common root (aside from Islam)?

The similarities are actually kind of ironic considering Baha'i comes from shiia and amadiyya comes from Sunni. Unity in diversity as the Baha'i say.

 

[paarsurrey]

In other words, those who strive to progress Zoroastrianism, spread it's message, and contemplate on it's deeper aspects and teach what they learn are ALL "prophets" of Zoroastrianism. They are "Inspired Teachers" =)

Do you consider them all of the same level and category of "prophets" as was Zoroaster? Please
Regards

 

[Corthos]

Hmmm... I can't answer it in terms of what Zoroastrians believe, in all honesty. Keep in mind that my knowledge on the subject is extremely limited. I just started learning this myself, so I can't speak for what Zoroastrians believe.

That said, if you are asking what I, Corthos, believe personally, then I will give you my extremely ignorant opinion. =)

I think truths are timeless. Zoroaster sung of the importance of things such as acceptance for people - regardless of their differences.


Whoever is very good to the righteous
whether a relative, or a member of the community,
or, O Lord, a member of the fellowship,
or serves the living world with zeal,
lives indeed in the domain of righteousness
and good mind.

This verse is sensible to me. This is as true now as it was 3500 years ago. THIS is the test of a true teacher's words. Do I consider him a prophet for this, however?

Hmmm... It's a new idea to me. I'm used to the idea that prophets do amazing miracles and are blessed with supernatural powers. But, if these miracles are so powerful, then why is there no third party accounts for these miraculous things?

When Moses parts the Red Sea, you would think that Egypt or other neighbors near by would record this amazingly supernatural phenomenon. The only third party accounts of Jesus` miracles, that I'm aware of, were written by Josephus, and it's generally accepted by scholars that the segments about Jesus were altered later by Christians (and are thus, false). If Mohamed split the moon, why didn't any of the other star gazing peoples in the world write about something so astonishing that could be easily seen with the naked eye?

Moreover, these prophets have done/said things that just don't agree with me... God killing the first born children of the people of Egypt via Moses (also not recorded)?! Jesus telling the Canaanite woman that he wouldn't cure her daughter because "It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to their dogs." (in other words, racism), and Mohamed... Well... You get the point.

That's not to say that they didn't speak truths as well, and THAT would point to their worth as teachers (prophets). =) Then again, there have been many great men with startling truths... For example.

"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime." - Mark Twain

"You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty." -Ghandi

"For to be free is not merely to cast off one's chains, but to live in a way that respects and enhances the freedom of others." -Nelson Mandela

Ultimately, one shouldn't look for truth to be proven by some supernatural feat, I feel, but it will be self evident in it's timelessness. The person who contributes a stunningly profound truth isn't more profound than the truth itself, but you still may want to pay attention to other things they might say...

So could there be a "prophet" at the same level as Zoroaster? I feel that is an irrelevant question, as truth is truth no matter who says it.

These are my opinions, but they are subject to change. I like keeping an open mind as I figure these things out, heh.... Especially since I have only just started to read the Avesta. I really wish I had more time to devote to this stuff. XP