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Muslims in Italy now calling for polygynous marriage

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The Emperor of Mankind

Currently the galaxy's spookiest paraplegic
An Italian-born convert has called for men to be allowed to marry multiple wives in civil polygynous marriages for the first time.

Hamza Piccardo thinks that because gay people are allowed to marry the one they love, Muslims should be allowed to marry whomever they like.

Here's the story on RT

Does he make a convincing argument? Do you think Muslims should have the right to engage in polygynous marriages in Italy or anywhere in Europe?

Personally, I can kind of see his argument as making sense as long as I focus solely on his argument about equal rights for all. Once you stop and actually strip it down though, it falls apart. I'll explain more once people start responding.
 

Sultan Of Swing

Well-Known Member
Legal marriage has been reduced to a meaningless contract now, I don't see why not. Why is two people better than three, or four, or five. Historical precedent is no longer a valid argument either, and surely it just depends on how each person feels.
 

Godobeyer

the word "Islam" means "submission" to God
Premium Member
An Italian-born convert has called for men to be allowed to marry multiple wives in civil polygynous marriages for the first time.

Hamza Piccardo thinks that because gay people are allowed to marry the one they love, Muslims should be allowed to marry whomever they like.

Here's the story on RT

Does he make a convincing argument? Do you think Muslims should have the right to engage in polygynous marriages in Italy or anywhere in Europe?

Personally, I can kind of see his argument as making sense as long as I focus solely on his argument about equal rights for all. Once you stop and actually strip it down though, it falls apart. I'll explain more once people start responding.

It's legal to have many (illimited) girlfriends at same time in West, but it's illegal to have 2 wives !!

You may find some people had wife , they cheating all time with sluts or girlfriends .

What some Muslims call for it in daylight , the non-Muslims do it at night :D
 
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LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
The argument that he uses can charitably be described as "confused", although "prejudiced" is probably a more accurate qualifier. I guess it is baby steps with those who give too much weight to scriptures.

Still, there is no reason why he can't or should not request legal acknowledgement for poygamous marriages, and as long as some assurance that it is both voluntary and reversible is attained, I see no reason why it should not be given.

What I would object to is any demand for differentiated marriage rights according to religious allegiance.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
No. His argument is stupid. Plural marriages are not the same as monogamous marriages at all, regardless of the genders involved. It would create a legal nightmare for family law, and would probably have negative outcomes for women and children. The research shows that polygyny has bad outcomes for women, children and the societies that normalize it.
 

jeager106

Learning more about Jehovah.
Premium Member
It's legal to have many (illimited) girlfriends at same time in West, but it's illegal to have 2 wives !!
You may find some people had wife , they cheating all time with sluts or girlfriends .
What some Muslims call for it in daylight , the non-Muslims do it at night :D

You paint with a very broad brush.

MOST American males do not cheat on wives or girl friends.

If I dated a woman that I later learned was as **** I'd dump her quickly.

Well...............................depending upon what she looked like and how slutty she
was.
Maybe I'd dump her later.:D
 

Sultan Of Swing

Well-Known Member
oh?
What do you think it was before?

For you to browse over:
Meh, addressing the classic misunderstanding of Scripture gets a bit tiring.

And the breakdown of marriage started long before the introduction of gay marriage, I wasn't primarily referring to that. Gay marriage has resulted in what, a few thousand same-sex couples marrying each other? This isn't as significant as the introduction of no-fault divorce in the 1960s which broke the whole thing down in the first place.

EDIT: "introduction of no-fault divorce", not "removal of no-fault divorce"
 
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McBell

Unbound
Meh, addressing the classic misunderstanding of Scripture gets a bit tiring.
I agree.
Unfortunately both sides are guilty of it....

And the breakdown of marriage started long before the introduction of gay marriage, I wasn't primarily referring to that. Gay marriage has resulted in what, a few thousand same-sex couples marrying each other? This isn't as significant as the removal of no-fault divorce in the 1960s which broke the whole thing down in the first place.
Fair enough
 

Godobeyer

the word "Islam" means "submission" to God
Premium Member
You paint with a very broad brush.

MOST American males do not cheat on wives or girl friends.

If I dated a woman that I later learned was as **** I'd dump her quickly.

Well...............................depending upon what she looked like and how slutty she
was.
Maybe I'd dump her later.:D
Your story make feel that you were so optimistic by MOST :p
 

Knight of Albion

Well-Known Member
Polygamy has its roots in (in ancient times) women and children being left widowed and orphaned, as a result of warfare, and subsequently having no one to provide for them and protect them.
In those days and under those circumstances there may well have been a justification for it.

The world has moved on from those times.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
You paint with a very broad brush.

MOST American males do not cheat on wives or girl friends.

If I dated a woman that I later learned was as **** I'd dump her quickly.

Well...............................depending upon what she looked like and how slutty she
was.
Maybe I'd dump her later.:D
I think his argument is about what one may legally do were one so inclined.
 

David1967

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
It's legal to have many (illimited) girlfriends at same time in West, but it's illegal to have 2 wives !!

You may find some people had wife , they cheating all time with sluts or girlfriends .

What some Muslims call for it in daylight , the non-Muslims do it at night :D

If between consenting adults why not? I dont have a problem with it. Personally though, one wife is plenty for me. :cool:
 

Politesse

Amor Vincit Omnia
I really don't see why the "modern nations" decided polygamous marriages were barbaric in the first place. Seems pretty arbitrary.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
I really don't see why the "modern nations" decided polygamous marriages were barbaric in the first place. Seems pretty arbitrary.
It goes back to the Romans practicing monogamous marriage and their culture having such an impact on the West and the world at large. Also, if you haven't noticed, the places were polygamy is normalized tend to be hellholes were women and children are treated brutally.
 

Politesse

Amor Vincit Omnia
It goes back to the Romans practicing monogamous marriage and their culture having such an impact on the West and the world at large. Also, if you haven't noticed, the places were polygamy is normalized tend to be hellholes were women and children are treated brutally.
So are a lot of places where heterosexual, monogamous marriages are normalized; are we using a reasonable comparative measure? I'm not sure I would list the Roman empire as a time of spectacular achievements in gender relations.

I mean, are we suggesting that a decent, kind, loving father, upon acquisition of an additional wife, suddenly becomes a brutish thug? Or is this just code for "we hate Mormons and Muslims, and therefore connect our stereotypes of them to polygamy in general"?
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
So are a lot of places where heterosexual, monogamous marriages are normalized; are we using a reasonable comparative measure? I'm not sure I would list the Roman empire as a time of spectacular achievements in gender relations.

I mean, are we suggesting that a decent, kind, loving father, upon acquisition of an additional wife, suddenly becomes a brutish thug? Or is this just code for "we hate Mormons and Muslims, and therefore connect our stereotypes of them to polygamy in general"?
I've gone over this subject before, so I'll just refer you to my other posts on the subject:

http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/polygamy-your-thoughts.185384/page-2#post-4668581
http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/should-we-legalize-polygamy.178922/page-4#post-4732896

It has nothing to do with religion, in my eyes. I go by research and the effects on society it would likely have. I'm opposed to polyamory, too, for much the same reasons and that's not associated with conservative religious people. I certainly don't hate Mormons and/or Muslims. By the way, only tiny fringe Mormon sects practice polygamy now.

I also didn't mention the Roman Empire in terms of being "a time of spectacular achievements in gender relations". I mentioned Rome because:

"...socially imposed monogamy was first established in ancient Greece and Rome, centuries before Christianity even existed. Greco-Roman laws prohibited any man from having more than one official wife at a time. It's true that forms of de facto polygyny (e.g. concubinage, sex with slaves) continued to be tolerated in these societies. Nevertheless, anti-polygyny laws made Greco-Roman society relatively sexually egalitarian (Scheidel, 2009), because by preventing elite men from legally acquiring multiple wives, they improved the ability of lower-ranking men to acquire wives of their own.

So by the time Christianity began spreading through the Roman Empire in the first centuries AD, monogamy was already well-established. But even though Christianity did not introduce socially imposed monogamy to the West, it did fully embrace this institution, and as noted above, it was this embracement that ultimately led to monogamy's spread throughout the Western world."
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/darwin-eternity/201109/why-we-think-monogamy-is-normal
See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monogamy#Ancient_Greece_and_ancient_Rome

This is interesting, too:

"Western European societies established monogamy as their marital norm.[64] Monogamous marriage is normative and is legally enforced in most of the world's highly developed countries.[65] Laws prohibiting polygyny were adopted in 1880 in Japan, 1953 in China, 1955 in India and 1963 in Nepal.[65]

The women's rights movements in these nations want to make monogamy the only legal form of marriage. The United Nations joined these efforts in 1979 when the General Assembly adopted the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women, an international bill of rights for women that over 180 nations have agreed to implement. Article 16 of the Convention requires nations to give women and men equal rights in marriage. Polygamy is interpreted as inconsistent with Article 16 when it extends the right of multiple spouses to men but not to women. The United Nations has established the Committee on the Elimination of Discrimination against Women (CEDAW)[66] to monitor the progress of nations implementing the Convention. The United Nations is thus working through the Convention and CEDAW to promote women's equality by making monogamy the only legal form of marriage worldwide."

So unless you can find research into the subject that shows that polygamy that can lead to positive social outcomes for women and children, I see no reason to support it. The evidence seems quite clear that societies that have normalized monogamy over polygamy function much better in general, with better outcomes for all concerned.
 
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