Muslims:Proof of hijab

[ConfusedKuri]

Plus it means there is not ONE CORRECT way of wearing/styling it. So our beloved desi-pardah is completely acceptable. The one thing that confuses me though is, we have to wear it during namazz :S how does that fit into the scheme then?

 

[Jason]

since hijab seems to be a favorite topic with both Muslims and non-Muslims...i want to know:

where EXACTLY in the Qur'an does it explicitly state that women MUST cover their hair? i know everyone will quote the same ayahs i've read over and over again...but i don't want those to be used as proof. they're vague and added to with words in parentheses, ie (hair covering, scarves, over the head) etc, but not clearly stated in the Qur'an. Khimar has been discussed to pieces and it simply means "cover" but Allah doesn't say pull your khimar over your head and cover your hair, He says pull it over your bosom. why aren't there all these words in parentheses with regards to other laws? why didn't Allah say "cover your hair...all of it, with a khimar"?

don't quote Hadith, i want it from the Qur'an. reason? because i don't think that Allah forgot to be specific. if Allah wanted hijab to be practiced 100%, His ayah would be revealed without any ambiguity or need for human translation. my stance is that there is wiggle room in this area and we people/scholars have added on based on Hadith and Hadith alone.

thoughts? i'm really struggling with this hijab thing...i'm not trying to incite, and please don't patronize me. i'm a big girl and i don't need to be preached to.

It isn't. There is only one commonly accepted hadith account quoting Mohammad stating the hair and arms should be covered and that was after being asked by Aisha, the rest of the hadith accounts are mostly Umar. Umar was very conservative and pushed for the covering of hair and most skin and banning of music. Assuming the hadith account Mohammad suggested covering hair and arms to be true, it appears Mohammad's opinion on modest attire matched Umar's, but the fact that he is only recorded as stating after being asked by his wife suggests it was less of a command and more of an opinion shared upon request. As for music, on the other hand, Mohammad just told Umar to get out of his house if he didn't like it, they're celebrating.

 

[muslim-]

Ibn Abbas the companion who taught others the Qur'aan even explained the verse on "what normally appears" in detail. Hadeeths/companion quotes on this are countless. No jurist in Islamic history ever doubted this. Nor is there any text oft a single woman at the time of the companions with her hair uncovered.

Its not even debatable. If one doesnt wear hijab... fine.. we humans are always far from perfection... but trying to justify it is really like I dont know... cant find the right word.

 

[Jason]

Ibn Abbas the companion who taught others the Qur'aan even explained the verse on "what normally appears" in detail. Hadeeths/companion quotes on this are countless. No jurist in Islamic history ever doubted this. Nor is there any text oft a single woman at the time of the companions with her hair uncovered.

Its not even debatable. If one doesnt wear hijab... fine.. we humans are always far from perfection... but trying to justify it is really like I dont know... cant find the right word.

If it was so obvious, why did Aisha even have to ask? How after three years of being promised to the most noble of Arabia was she ignorant of such a rampant custom as you claim it was?

 

[muslim-]

If it was so obvious, why did Aisha even have to ask? How after three years of being promised to the most noble of Arabia was she ignorant of such a rampant custom as you claim it was?

Ask about what? What three years? Please be precise to I can give a precise answer.

 

[Jason]

Ask about what? What three years? Please be precise to I can give a precise answer.

My mistake, I remembered it incorrectly. It was Aisha's sister, Asma, and Mohammad did kind of impose his opinion.

Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 32, Number 4092: Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin: Asma, daughter of AbuBakr, entered upon the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) wearing thin clothes. The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) turned his attention from her. He said: O Asma', when a woman reaches the age of menstruation, it does not suit her that she displays her parts of body except this and this, and he pointed to her face and hands.
​

Aisha's sister was still ignorant of such a commonplace custom? It still seems like an extreme case, "cover yourself, you're turning me on", kind of thing. It also seems the modest attire is so extreme because those that did dress modestly in Arabia covered all but their hair and face, which was mostly a custom that came about due to the climate. It's pointless and a stumbling block on Islam to impose desert attire for every climate when societies are perfectly capable of determining what is modest for them.

 

[muslim-]

My mistake, I remembered it incorrectly. It was Aisha's sister, Asma, and Mohammad did kind of impose his opinion.

Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 32, Number 4092: Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin: Asma, daughter of AbuBakr, entered upon the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) wearing thin clothes. The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) turned his attention from her. He said: O Asma', when a woman reaches the age of menstruation, it does not suit her that she displays her parts of body except this and this, and he pointed to her face and hands.
​

Aisha's sister was still ignorant of such a commonplace custom? It still seems like an extreme case, "cover yourself, you're turning me on", kind of thing. It also seems the modest attire is so extreme because those that did dress modestly in Arabia covered all but their hair and face, which was mostly a custom that came about due to the climate. It's pointless and a stumbling block on Islam to impose desert attire for every climate when societies are perfectly capable of determining what is modest for them.

So if one tells his daughter to dress in a certain way its like saying you're turning me on? Since this is how you talk about prophet Muhammad peace be upon him, you will get a frank answer.

But before that, the second thing is hijab is not a "custom". Third, the hadeeth was in the early days of Islam.

Fourth, if it were only a custom as you say
A) it wouldn't have been ordered by the messenger of Allah and B ) It wouldnt be connected to age. C ) If thin clothes was because of heat, then it cant be said that covering was because of the climate. D) It mentions not "displaying" parts of the body.

On top of this, theres disputes about its authenticity (although theres other authentic ones with no dispute and with similar meanings). Because A) its chain is disconnected, and B) it has Saeed Ibn Bishr Al Azdi in its chain, whos hadeeth is not accepted by many scholars, and also has Qutadah, whos narrations arent completely trusted due to what is called in sciences of Hadeeth, Tadlees (Mixing between words of what was transmitted from the prophet and words of yourself)

So please, if you don't know much about the issue its better to either humbly ask, or not say anything, its better than using some expressions you did. This issue in particular isnt debatable and never has been over 1400 years. Books have been written about it discussing hundreds of narrations.

Even in Christianity theres verses about women covering their heads in Church.

But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven. For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered." 1Cor. 11:4-6. Theres also verses about it in the OT.

If you choose to think they shouldnt follow that and their standards of modesty is better than standards set by the Bible, then let it be. We just dont do that. We hear, and we obey.

 

[muslim-]

Plus it means there is not ONE CORRECT way of wearing/styling it. So our beloved desi-pardah is completely acceptable. The one thing that confuses me though is, we have to wear it during namazz :S how does that fit into the scheme then?

If you are Shia as I think you stated elsewhere, its natural you ask this because Shia scholars never give evidence for anything they say, and normally just fill people with emotions to keep Khums money coming. Here are hadeeths referred to in Sunni Islam.

The prophet peace be upon him said "Allaah will not accept the salat of a woman who has started to menstruate, except with a khimaar " (Reported by Ahmad, Abu Dawud, Ibn Maajah and al-Tirmidhi, with a saheeh isnaad)

In another narration from Umm Salamah radi Allaahu 3Anha who asked Allaah’s Messenger sallAllaahu 3Alayhi wa Sallam: “Can a woman perform a salat in a Dir3 (a long and wide garment that covers a woman’s body) and Khimaar (head cover) without ‘Izaar (a loin cloth/lower garment)?’

The Prophet sallAllaahu 3Alayhi wa Sallam said: “If the Dir' is long and wide so that it covers the body to the external part of her feet”

 

[Jason]

So if one tells his daughter to dress in a certain way its like saying you're turning me on? Since this is how you talk about prophet Muhammad peace be upon him, you will get a frank answer.

But before that, the second thing is hijab is not a "custom". Third, the hadeeth was in the early days of Islam.

Fourth, if it were only a custom as you say
A) it wouldn't have been ordered by the messenger of Allah and B ) It wouldnt be connected to age. C ) If thin clothes was because of heat, then it cant be said that covering was because of the climate. D) It mentions not "displaying" parts of the body.

On top of this, theres disputes about its authenticity (although theres other authentic ones with no dispute and with similar meanings). Because A) its chain is disconnected, and B) it has Saeed Ibn Bishr Al Azdi in its chain, whos hadeeth is not accepted by many scholars, and also has Qutadah, whos narrations arent completely trusted due to what is called in sciences of Hadeeth, Tadlees (Mixing between words of what was transmitted from the prophet and words of yourself)

So please, if you don't know much about the issue its better to either humbly ask, or not say anything, its better than using some expressions you did. This issue in particular isnt debatable and never has been over 1400 years. Books have been written about it discussing hundreds of narrations.

Even in Christianity theres verses about women covering their heads in Church.

But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven. For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered." 1Cor. 11:4-6. Theres also verses about it in the OT.

If you choose to think they shouldnt follow that and their standards of modesty is better than standards set by the Bible, then let it be. We just dont do that. We hear, and we obey.

Don't talk to me like a child, please. The hadith says Mohammad had to turn his attention away from her. The Prophet was human and he'd spit in your face for deifying him like you are.

 

[muslim-]

Don't talk to me like a child, please. The hadith says Mohammad had to turn his attention away from her. The Prophet was human and he'd spit in your face for deifying him like you are.

I will allow myself to enter a discussion of such a low level of both knowledge and manners.

Peace.

 

[Jason]

I will allow myself to enter a discussion of such a low level of both knowledge and manners.

Peace.

Your illiteracy is showing again with this response. The hadith states that she was dressed so provacatively that Mohammad had to turn away! He took measures to keep his thoughts pure and requested she change her clothes. Perhaps I was being rude in assuming he was probably not fast enough to turn away before being aroused, but it looks to me like he knew full well how provocatively she was dressed so pardon me...

This is stuff Mohammad's wife was willing to share with all believers, you really need to stop ignoring what the hadith states clear as day for the sake of so-called manners.

 

[Peace]

Don't talk to me like a child, please. The hadith says Mohammad had to turn his attention away from her. The Prophet was human and he'd spit in your face for deifying him like you are.

Your illiteracy is showing again with this response.

Jason, it's a shame to use such down to earth language. Plus, calling muslim- illiterate just will turn against you, for he is so knowledgeable masha'Allah and all his posts are very informative.

There is nothing in the Hadith that connotes that Asma was wearing provocative clothes.How could she wear provocatively while at that period even up to 18th Century women were covering almost all their bodies.

 

[Jason]

Jason, it's a shame to use such down to earth language. Plus, calling muslim- illiterate just will turn against you, for he is so knowledgeable masha'Allah and all his posts are very informative.

There is nothing in the Hadith that connotes that Asma was wearing provocative clothes.How could she wear provocatively while at that period even up to 18th Century women were covering almost all their bodies.

It's a shame to ignore the Truth. What you call down to Earth is merely honest and to the point. Read the Hadith again. It mentions she was wearing thin clothes, most-likely see-through and silky, like belly dancer style. The hadith clearly states she's dressed provocatively. The person that calls themselves "muslim" accused me of being rude because of his poor comprehension of the hadith. Plain honest language is the best way to speak the Truth, but you and "muslim" seem to have love only for a backwards moral code and so-called "manners" at the expense of the Truth. This "knowledge" you say he has is of mere traditions and human rules.

 

[Jason]

This "knowledge" you say he has is of mere traditions and human rules.

And stuff he makes up to slander Shi'a.