Muslims: That's How I Found The True Islam

[Gharib]

i think problem begins when people take hadith over Qur'an. there are real sayings of Mohammad SAW in hadith books. but they are mixed with fabricated ones. it is one of his hadiths that say his sayings would be discussed someday and he says that we should look into Qur'an because none of his sayings could contradict with its verses. i think Muslims should learn Qur'an and in case hadiths add different laws to it, they should be careful about it. because law of God is written in Qur'an therefor it is protected by Allah and its angels. unfortunately hadith books are not protected. they are open to be changed

.

all the ahadith which have been clasified as sahih are authentic and the true words of the prophet (saws). our scholars have devoted their lives to studying them and making such clasifications. some fabricated hadith with good intentions have been exposed so i don't think fake hadiths with bad intentions haven't.

 

[aymen amir]

brother you are contradicting yourself i'm afraid.

lets just leave the explanation and authenticity of the hadith to our scholars you nor i have the authority to label a hadith true or false.

REALLY ?? my intention was good .. sorry if i missed up

 

[.lava]

all the ahadith which have been clasified as sahih are authentic and the true words of the prophet (saws). our scholars have devoted their lives to studying them and making such clasifications. some fabricated hadith with good intentions have been exposed so i don't think fake hadiths with bad intentions haven't.

i would respect their effort but they are ordinary people. they are not saints or messengers. they decided according to their knowledge and entire Islamic world now is limited by their minds.

stoning people to death as a hadith definetely had bad intentions

.

 

[Gharib]

Dear eselam,

Of course the prophet Muhammad was a good example for us, as one who followed GOD's teachings in the Koran and upheld them. Sunnah and Hadith came 200+ years after the prophet Muhammad's death. Even if the people writing them had good intentions, they most likely would have been extremely distorted.

Remember that GOD (the only Source of righteousness) tells us not to make distinction among GOD's messengers friend:

i'm afraid you are wrong Snowber. what the prophet (saws) did, said or aproved of is the sunnah and hadith. the companions of the prophet were among the first muslims to follow the hadith and sunnah. they may have been compiled into a book around 200 years after but they existed earlier than that.

see the following example that belongs to the hadith and sunnah category:

In one of the battles the Prophet once – peace and blessings be upon him – said disapprovingly to some of his Companions:
“Woe unto some of you who were obsessed today with killing to the extent of killing babies!”
“O, Prophet, they are the sons of the disbelievers,” said one man.
“The best among you were sons of disbelievers,” said the Prophet. “Do not kill babies nor children. Every one is born on fitra until he starts to speak and then his parents make him a Jew or a Christian.”

that applied to the companions of the prophet and it applies to us and to those who will come after us till they day of jugement.

 

[Gharib]

REALLY ?? my intention was good .. sorry if i missed up

yes your intention was good but this is where you contradicted yourself:
"THESE hadith specially are a fake"
....
"don't try to understand the hadiths by your self"

 

[Gharib]

i would respect their effort but they are ordinary people. they are not saints or messengers. they decided according to their knowledge and entire Islamic world now is limited by their minds.

but sister you must understand that this is what Allah (swt) willed therefore it happened. i do however agree that every scholar makes a mistake just like all humans. but it is not only one scholar we are talking about it is thousands if not millions all tackling the same thing

stoning people to death as a hadith definetely had bad intentions

you see .lava, the reason why there are non muslims is because they believe that certain things are bad or impossible. when the prophet was telling people that they will be braught to life after their death Abu Leheb the uncle of the prophet could not in any way accept this, it was impossible for a dead man to come back to life, he would say. Islam is not about what we think is ok instead it is about what Allah says is ok. now the diference between a muslim and a non-muslim is that we chose what Allah (swt) says is best. Allah says do not eat pigs we don't, but a non-muslim says thats stupid.

i am not a scholar to explain to you the hadith about stoning, but you too are not a scholar to say that the hadith is fake. if you want i can search for an explanation. things aren't as they seem. brother Zhakir was asking how could a grown man suckle a woman? but the answer i gave him explained it. the same with this. a lay muslim must not classify any kind of hadith as true or false. we have not studied the hadith.

 

[.lava]

but sister you must understand that this is what Allah (swt) willed therefore it happened. i do however agree that every scholar makes a mistake just like all humans. but it is not only one scholar we are talking about it is thousands if not millions all tackling the same thing

everything happens after permission of God. how is it related to this?

problem is simple. shcolars teach other people. in other words people teach people what they know. so knowledge pass from one generation to another and stays the same. it is no big surprise if they all agreed. it does not matter though. we still have Qur'an. i feel responsible for my religion, i feel obligated to use my intellect and think over verses. this is why i rather compare hadiths with Qur'an. truth is in Qur'an and i have no problem with any hadith that matches with verses of Qur'an.

you see .lava, the reason why there are non muslims is because they believe that certain things are bad or impossible. when the prophet was telling people that they will be braught to life after their death Abu Leheb the uncle of the prophet could not in any way accept this, it was impossible for a dead man to come back to life, he would say. Islam is not about what we think is ok instead it is about what Allah says is ok. now the diference between a muslim and a non-muslim is that we chose what Allah (swt) says is best. Allah says do not eat pigs we don't, but a non-muslim says thats stupid.

and Allah would not ask people to do things just to make them suffer. whatever is commanded by Allah is only goodness for people. i don't know why you say this but i agree

i am not a scholar to explain to you the hadith about stoning, but you too are not a scholar to say that the hadith is fake. if you want i can search for an explanation. things aren't as they seem. brother Zhakir was asking how could a grown man suckle a woman? but the answer i gave him explained it. the same with this. a lay muslim must not classify any kind of hadith as true or false. we have not studied the hadith.

no, i am not scholar, i am a student. i don't make comments on hadiths if i did not specificly ask about them

.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

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Thread moved to Same Faith Debates.
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[Gharib]

everything happens after permission of God. how is it related to this?

i was reffering to this:
"i would respect their effort but they are ordinary people. they are not saints or messengers. they decided according to their knowledge and entire Islamic world now is limited by their minds."

they decided to the knowledge and facts that exist. not that i dot not accept the quran as superior to the hadith but the same thing could be said for the quran though. the quran is a guide from Allah but an entire islamic world is now limited only to what it says, and without the hadith i'm affraid it doesn't say much. that is an honest oppinion. snowber is a quran alone muslim, so i would ask him how do we pray, in what way, can you describe the main points of 2 rakah, what we need to say and in what position we need to be without turning to the hadith? one can think over the verses that say to pray allthey want, no one can explain how we need to pray without turning to the hadith and sunnah.

problem is simple. shcolars teach other people. in other words people teach people what they know. so knowledge pass from one generation to another and stays the same. it is no big surprise if they all agreed. it does not matter though. we still have Qur'an. i feel responsible for my religion, i feel obligated to use my intellect and think over verses. this is why i rather compare hadiths with Qur'an. truth is in Qur'an and i have no problem with any hadith that matches with verses of Qur'an.

but the quran too has stayed the same for over 1400 years, if the quran has not changed then the ahadith have not changed. the hadith simply explain/expand the points mentioned in the quan.

i too agree that as long as the hadith does not contradict the quran then it is true. that is what the prophet (saws) has said.

and Allah would not ask people to do things just to make them suffer. whatever is commanded by Allah is only goodness for people. i don't know why you say this but i agree

i was speaking about how you said that the hadith about stoning those who commit adultery is for bad intentions, meaning fake. and i was trying to explain that what Allah (swt) says is right not what we say. you probably have a dificulty in accepting that hadith as true because your ego tells you that it is wrong to kill someone for such an act, but you must remember that in the quran Allah says do notgo near zina, he does no say do not commit zina he says do not go near it, meaning it is very bad. thats why i mentioned the unlawfulnes of the pig in islam, while a non-muslim who's ego says it is ok to eat pig dissagrees with Allah.

no, i am not scholar, i am a student. i don't make comments on hadiths if i did not specificly ask about them

the reason why i said that is because you said that the hadith about adultery is for bad intentions, can you please explain how you came to that viewpoint?

 

[Snowber]

i'm afraid you are wrong Snowber. what the prophet (saws) did, said or aproved of is the sunnah and hadith. the companions of the prophet were among the first muslims to follow the hadith and sunnah. they may have been compiled into a book around 200 years after but they existed earlier than that.

see the following example that belongs to the hadith and sunnah category:

In one of the battles the Prophet once – peace and blessings be upon him – said disapprovingly to some of his Companions:
“Woe unto some of you who were obsessed today with killing to the extent of killing babies!”
“O, Prophet, they are the sons of the disbelievers,” said one man.
“The best among you were sons of disbelievers,” said the Prophet. “Do not kill babies nor children. Every one is born on fitra until he starts to speak and then his parents make him a Jew or a Christian.”

that applied to the companions of the prophet and it applies to us and to those who will come after us till they day of jugement.

Dear eselam,

To rely on Hadith which is already condemned in the Qu'ran as a reason to follow more Hadith just does not support itself.

Have you ever thought it strange that the only Shahada you see in the Qu'ran is "There is no god beside GOD"?

"Obey GOD and obey the messenger":

To obey the prophet Muhammad is to obey a man whose sole function was the delivery of the Qu'ran, to claim that Muhammad would give us teachings OTHER than the Qu'ran is conjecture:

[69:44] Had he uttered any other teachings.
[69:45] We would have punished him.
[69:46] We would have stopped the revelations to him.
[69:47] None of you could have helped him.
[69:48] This is a reminder for the righteous.

Remember verse 19 of Sura Muhammad?

[47:19] You shall know that: "There is no other god beside GOD,"* and ask forgiveness of your sins and the sins of all believing men and women. GOD is fully aware of your decisions and your ultimate destiny.

Also, the mathematical miracle of the Qu'ran is based on the number 19. So it is truly amazing that in Sura "Muhammad", Verse "19" we find this reminder.

Here is a book article explaining in detail why the Hadith is not meant to be followed fully supported by Qu'ranic verses, I know it's long, but when I was a Sunni Muslim reading from the same website at first I couldn't accept the idea either. I use to think "They are rejecting the Prophet Muhammad and they hate him!" or "How could they claim these things!?"

My friends, it is all supported by the Qu'ran and the mathematical miracle of the Qu'ran only provides more evidence.

Dear brothers and sisters, here is an invitation to you. Remember that I once followed Hadith and Sunnah and I STILL live with a Sunni family. I am not claiming anyone is going to Hell here but I think it is important to examine the Qu'ran and read it how GOD intended it to be read.

 

[Snowber]

dear zhakir i would like you to answer the following allah says :

12. Obey Allah and obey His messenger; but if ye turn away, then the duty of Our messenger is only to convey (the
message) plainly

now what does Allah(swt) mean by obey Allah ?
And what does Allah(swt) mean by obey his messenger?

note that ALLAh (swt) did not say OBEY ALLAH AND his messenger but he separated it

Following the messenger is following the "message" he brought (AKA the Qu'ran). Note the end of the verse "then the duty of Our messenger is only to convey". There are three more verses like this:

[5:92] You shall obey GOD, and you shall obey the messenger, and beware. If you turn away, then know that the SOLE DUTY of our messenger is to deliver the message efficiently.

[5:99] The SOLE DUTY of the messenger is to deliver the message, and GOD knows everything you declare and everything you conceal.

[24:54] Say, "Obey GOD, and obey the messenger." If they refuse, then he is responsible for his obligations, and you are responsible for your obligations. If you obey him, you will be guided. The SOLE DUTY of the messenger is to deliver (the message).

In regards to other posts about needing Sunnah and Hadith (there was too much to quote which made it difficult to respond so I hope this is ok), remember the Salat/Zakat/Hajj/etc were already in practice since the time of Abraham.

Here is an excerpt of the book "Quran, Hadith, and Islam"

"If Quran is complete and fully detailed (as God says), where can we find the details of Salat prayers?"

This famous question reveals their total ignorance of Quran and a subconscious effort to prove that God is wrong in His repeated assertions that Quran is "complete" and "fully detailed."

For the Quran teaches in no uncertain terms that Abraham is the founder of Islam as it is practiced today. As such, what did Abraham contribute to our daily life as Muslims?

The Quran teaches that ALL RELIGIOUS PRACTICES IN ISLAM (Salat, Zakat, Fasting & Hajj) CAME TO US FROM ABRAHAM, GENERATION AFTER GENERATION.

Thus, Islam in its final form, as is practiced today, is based on two things: (1) QURAN: contributed through Muhammad, and (2) RELIGIOUS PRACTICES: through Abraham.

ALL RELIGIOUS PRACTICES IN ISLAM EXISTED BEFORE MUHAMMAD.

Muhammad's SOLE FUNCTION was to deliver Quran (see Pages 3033).

ABRAHAM: THE FOUNDER OF ISLAM

Abraham was the first recipient of the concept of ISLAM, and the first user of the word "MUSLIM" (see 2:131).

"You shall strive in the cause of God as you should. He has blessed you, and imposed no hardship in your religion; the RELIGION OF YOUR FATHER ABRAHAM. Abraham is the one who named you 'Muslims' in the beginning. Thus, the messenger serves as witness among you, just as you serve as witnesses among the people. Therefore, you shall observe the Salat prayers, give the Zakat charity, and hold fast to God; He is you Lord; the best Lord, and the best supporter." (22:78)

Thus, if Abraham is the founder of Islam, did he contribute anything to our Islamic life?

The answer is: "YES; he contributed THE RELIGIOUS PRACTICES (Salat, Zakat, Fasting, & Hajj)."

ISLAM IS THE RELIGION OF ABRAHAM

While Muhammad's mission, sole mission, was delivering Quran, ALL RELIGIOUS PRACTICES CAME THROUGH ABRAHAM.

"They said, 'Be you Jews or Christians in order to be guided.' Say, 'We follow the religion of Abraham, monotheism; he never was an idolworshiper.'" (2:135)

"Abraham was neither Jewish, nor Christian; he was a monotheist; a Muslim; he never was an idolworshiper. The people most worthy of following Abraham are those who followed him, and this prophet (Muhammad), and those who believed. God is the Lord of the believers." (3:6768)

MUHAMMAD WAS A FOLLOWER OF ABRAHAM

"Then we inspired you (O Muhammad) to follow the religion of Abraham, monotheism; never was he an idolworshiper." (16:123)

Logically, if Muhammad was a follower of Abraham, and we are followers of Muhammad, then we are followers of Abraham. What did we learn from Abraham???

The Quran teaches that we learned all the religious practices of Islam from Abraham. This includes Salat, Zakat, fasting, and Hajj.

Therefore, ISLAM IS BASED ON TWO THINGS:

(1) QURAN: THROUGH MUHAMMAD

(2) RELIGIOUS PRACTICES: VIA ABRAHAM

SALAT PRACTICED BY MUHAMMAD'S OPPONENTS

The whole Arabian society before and during the time of Muhammad followed the religion of Abraham. Thus, Abu Lahab, Abu Jahl, and the idolaters of Quraish used to observe the FIVE DAILY SALAT PRAYERS exactly as we do today, with the single exception of substituting the Quranic Faatihha for the Ibrahimy Faatihha.

"God was not to punish them while you (Muhammad) were still among them. God was not to punish them while they are seeking forgiveness. Yet, they fully deserved God's punishment for repelling from the sacred mosque, though they were not the guardians thereof; only the righteous are guardians thereof, but most of them do not know. THEIR SALAT PRAYERS at the shrine were no more than deceit and repulsion. Therefore, suffer the retribution for your disbelief." (8:3335)

SACRED MONTHS OBSERVED BEFORE MUHAMMAD

The four sacred months in Islam were observed before the time of Muhammad. This further proves that all religious practices of Islam were neither initiated, nor taught by the Prophet Muhammad; his sole mission was to deliver Quran.

"The count of months according to God is twelve, as shown in God's scriptures, since the day He created the heavens and the earth. Four of them are sacred. This is the right religion; therefore, do not wrong your souls during the four months. But you may fight the idolaters, if they attack you therein, and know that God is with the righteous. The practice of alternating the sacred months is a pagan practice. Thus, they changed the sacred months, making them violable one year and sacred the next year, as if to maintain the count instituted by God......" (9:3637)

TODAY'S IDOLATERS vs QURAISH'S IDOLATERS

Millions of "Muslims" today practice a form of idolatry that is similar to the idolatry of preMuhammad Quraish.

Millions of "Muslims" in Egypt, Iran, Pakistan, India, and may other countries go to the Mosque to pray. Their Salat prayers are definitely to God. After finishing their Salat, they visit the tomb of the saint and ask for health, wealth, and/or children.

The idol worshipers of Quraish observed the five Salat prayers exactly as we do today, but they also visited their idols Allat, Al'Uzzah, Manat, etc., to ask for health, wealth, and/or children.

Thus, the flagrant idolatry practiced by millions of Muslims today is exactly identical to the idolatry of Quraish before and during the time of Muhammad; only the idols are different.

Except for the Jewish and Christian minorities, the Arabian society prior to the mission of Muhammad followed the religion of Abraham. They practiced all the religious duties of Islam. Their Salat prayers were identical to ours, but they also practiced idolworship. The "Muslim" masses today practice idolworship by idolizing the Prophet against his will, by idolizing their saints and holy men or imams, and following other sources beside Quran (see pages 7 & 8).


"YOU SHALL KEEP THE OBSERVANCE OF SALAT"

This commandment was issued during the first few weeks of Quranic revelation.

DOES IT MAKE ANY SENSE THAT GOD WOULD ISSUE A COMMANDMENT TO OBSERVE SOMETHING NOT ALREADY KNOWN ???


"...and keep the observance of Salat and Zakat, and lend to God a loan of righteousness. Whatever you advance for your souls, you will find at God better and multiplied manyfold. And seek God's forgiveness; God is forgiving, merciful." (73:20)


The word "Salat" is very specific and means only one thing, i.e., the observance of specific practices involving bowing and prostration. This is true throughout Quran, throughout the ages, and in relation to any prophet, messenger, etc.

continued...

 

[Snowber]

ALL RELIGIOUS PRACTICES IN ISLAM (SALAT ZAKAT FASTING HAJJ) CAME TO US THROUGH ABRAHAM

In 2:128 we see Abraham and Ismail implore God to teach them "THE RELIGIOUS PRACTICES OF ISLAM."


"As Abraham raised the foundations of Kaaba, together with Ismail, they prayed, 'Our Lord, accept this work from us; you are the hearer, the omniscient. Our Lord, & make us Muslims to you; and from our descendants let there be a nation of Muslims to you; AND TEACH US HOW TO PRACTICE OUR RELIGIOUS DUTIES, and redeem us; you are the redeemer, the merciful.'" (2:127128)


ABRAHAM: FIRST (and last) RECIPIENT OF SPECIFIC RELIGIOUS PRACTICES.

The prophets and messengers prior to Abraham were not given any religious practices. The human society was so primitive, only BELIEF IN GOD ALONE was all that is required for salvation. See for example Sura 71, entitled "Noah." Thus, RELIGIOUS PRACTICES appear in Quran ONLY after Abraham; never before him.


"(O Children of Israel,) you shall observe the Salat prayers & Zakat charity; you shall bow down with those who bow." (2:43)

"We made the Kaaba a focal point for all the people, and a sanctuary; thus, you shall consider this station of Abraham a place of worship. And we appointed Abraham and Ismail to purify My shrine for those who would visit it, those who would retreat therein, and those who bow and prostrate." (2:125)

SALAT PRAYERS OBSERVED BEFORE MUHAMMAD

But the Jews and Christians "LOST" the Salat prayers.


"O Mary, you shall obey your Lord, and you shall prostrate and bow down with those who bow down." (3:43)


"(Jesus said,) God has made me blessed wherever I go, and He commanded me to observe the Salat prayers and Zakat charity for as long as I live." (19:31)


"Generations came thereafter who LOST the Salat prayers, and pursued their lusts." (19:59)


There are remnants of the Salat prayers among the Jews, namely, the Samaritans, and the Christians (the Russian Orthodox Church). It is noteworthy that the Samaritan Jews have denounced the manmade commandments of Talmud, and decided to adhere to the word of God alone, i.e., Torah (see "The Myth of God Incarnate", Page 117).


SALAT & ZAKAT CAME TO US VIA ABRAHAM

Those who refuse to believe God are challenging Quran by asking, "If Quran is complete and fully detailed (as stated in 6:19, 38, & 114), where can we find the details of Salat and Zakat?" For such people, who are obviously isolated from Quran (see 18:57), we present the following Quranic truth:

"And we granted him (Abraham) Isaac and Jacob as a gift, and we made them righteous. And we appointed them imams who guided in accordance with our commandments, AND WE TAUGHT THEM RIGHTEOUS WORKS AND THE OBSERVANCE OF SALAT AND ZAKAT." (21:7273)


Unfortunately, this plain Quranic truth is not accessible by those who keep trying to prove that Quran is not complete.

FIRST, they have to come to sincere conviction that Quran is complete, perfect, and fully detailed; they have to believe their Lord. Once they attain this conviction, the shields will be removed from around their hearts, the deafness will be removed from their ears, and they will become worthy of the Quranic truth.

FASTING CAME TO US VIA ABRAHAM

(then modified in Quran)


"You are permitted to have sexual intercourse with your wives during the night of fasting; they are your confidantes, and you are their confidants. God knew that YOU USED TO BETRAY YOUR SOULS (by having intercourse during the night) IN THE PAST. He has redeemed you, and He has pardoned you. HENCEFORTH, you may have intercourse with them, seeking what God has permitted for you." (part of 2:187)


This verse, therefore, clearly informs us that fasting was practiced before Muhammad according to the religion of Abraham (Islam).


When fasting as initially ordained through Abraham, sexual intercourse was prohibited throughout the fasting month of Ramadan, day and night.


HAJJ CAME TO US VIA ABRAHAM

Please note that the same verse also shows THE METHOD OF SALAT PRAYER (bowing & prostrating):

"We pointed out to Abraham the location of the shrine, and directed him to worship none beside Me, and to purify My shrine for those who would visit it, those who would retreat therein, and those who would bow and prostrate. And you shall declare (O Abraham) that the people shall observe Hajj. They will then come to you, walking or riding, from the farthest places." (22:2627)


Thus, Quran clearly teaches that ALL RELIGIOUS PRACTICES IN ISLAM (Salat, Zakat, Fasting, & Hajj) came to us via Abraham.


Quran teaches that God taught Abraham how to do Salat, Zakat, Fasting, & Hajj, then Abraham taught these practices to his children, and so on generation after generation.

THEY STILL INSIST

Even after showing all this Quranic evidence to those who do not believe God, you will note that they insist on their ways. Do not be surprised if they ask you after all this: "Where are the details of Salat prayers in Quran?"


Until they decide to believe their Creator in His repeated assertions that Quran is complete, they can never see the Quranic truth. This is documented below:

Peace brothers and sisters.

 

[Gharib]

Dear eselam,

To rely on Hadith which is already condemned in the Qu'ran as a reason to follow more Hadith just does not support itself.

can you please post the verse(s) of the quran that has condemned the hadith of the prophet?

also you failed to understand what i was saying to you by quoting that hadith. the companions of the prophet were already following his sunnah and hadith while he was alive. so the sunnah and hadith was the complete way of life for the companions (ra) of the prophet (saws). they lived that way of life, but due to their pre-islamic culture and way of life, people (muslims) had to quote the words of the prophet when they made mentione of something to the people that were not aware of if (of a particular thing) in order not to add something of the pre-islamic culture to the teachings of the prophet. nowadays in order to distinguish between the pre-islamic arab culture that still exists, people have to quote the hadith in order to be believed. remember muslims come from all backgrounds and cultures, if something within their culture contradics what the prophet taught then tat is impermisible.

Have you ever thought it strange that the only Shahada you see in the Qu'ran is "There is no god beside GOD"?

no i haven't. in one hadith Musa (as) asks Allah (swt) for a special way of dhikr just for him (just for Musa (as) to make) Allah (swt) says the best dhikr one can make is "La ilaha ilallah" ("There is no god beside Allah"), he asks again for a special way just for him, but he receives the same reply.

"Obey GOD and obey the messenger":

To obey the prophet Muhammad is to obey a man whose sole function was the delivery of the Qu'ran, to claim that Muhammad would give us teachings OTHER than the Qu'ran is conjecture:

i dissagree, you should too. half of his mission was to deliver the quran, the other half was to explain it. do you honestly think that if an engineer made a plane a lay person would know how to operate it? the quran in this case is the plane. if the plane has no manual book to explain the engineers plane and the function of thhe buttons then it would never fly.

[69:44] Had he uttered any other teachings.
[69:45] We would have punished him.
[69:46] We would have stopped the revelations to him.
[69:47] None of you could have helped him.
[69:48] This is a reminder for the righteous.

the above verses are exactly what i mean about the hadith. he only ever spoke what he received from Allah. the hadith and sunnah is what he received from Allah (swt), he did not invent the perfect way of life for a muslim, he wa told what it was, he was simply explaining it, that explanation is the hadith and sunnah.

Remember verse 19 of Sura Muhammad?

what about it?

Also, the mathematical miracle of the Qu'ran is based on the number 19. So it is truly amazing that in Sura "Muhammad", Verse "19" we find this reminder.

but surah Muhammed is not chapter 19 though, it would have been a miracle if both the chapter and the verse were 19 but they are not. i could probably find something similar starting from the end of a chapter instead of the begining.

Here is a book article explaining in detail why the Hadith is not meant to be followed fully supported by Qu'ranic verses, I know it's long, but when I was a Sunni Muslim reading from the same website at first I couldn't accept the idea either. I use to think "They are rejecting the Prophet Muhammad and they hate him!" or "How could they claim these things!?"

My friends, it is all supported by the Qu'ran and the mathematical miracle of the Qu'ran only provides more evidence.

Dear brothers and sisters, here is an invitation to you. Remember that I once followed Hadith and Sunnah and I STILL live with a Sunni family. I am not claiming anyone is going to Hell here but I think it is important to examine the Qu'ran and read it how GOD intended it to be read.

i don't see the article maybe you forgot to post it?

i like how you mentioned that last part about what god intended. in the quran we see a verse saying, ponder upon the quranic verses.

here is a verse i want you to explain to me:

"4:65 But nay, by thy Sustainer! They do not [really] believe unless they make thee [O Prophet] a judge of all on which they disagree among themselves, and then find in their hearts no bar to an acceptance of thy decision and give themselves up [to it] in utter self-surrender."

 

[Snowber]

can you please post the verse(s) of the quran that has condemned the hadith of the prophet?

also you failed to understand what i was saying to you by quoting that hadith. the companions of the prophet were already following his sunnah and hadith while he was alive. so the sunnah and hadith was the complete way of life for the companions (ra) of the prophet (saws). they lived that way of life, but due to their pre-islamic culture and way of life, people (muslims) had to quote the words of the prophet when they made mentione of something to the people that were not aware of if (of a particular thing) in order not to add something of the pre-islamic culture to the teachings of the prophet. nowadays in order to distinguish between the pre-islamic arab culture that still exists, people have to quote the hadith in order to be believed. remember muslims come from all backgrounds and cultures, if something within their culture contradics what the prophet taught then tat is impermisible.

Dear Eselam my friend,

Please look at this book/article when you find time, it should answer all if not most of your questions, MashAllah GOD did not need to give us more than the Qu'ran. All the practices needed were in existence long before the prophet Muhammad.

Quran, Hadith, and Islam

i dissagree, you should too. half of his mission was to deliver the quran, the other half was to explain it. do you honestly think that if an engineer made a plane a lay person would know how to operate it? the quran in this case is the plane. if the plane has no manual book to explain the engineers plane and the function of thhe buttons then it would never fly.

Those with doubt in their hearts feel it is necessary to have an "explanation" of the Qu'ran, but GOD is the one who will explain what is necessary when the time is right:

[75:16] Do not move your tongue to hasten it.
[75:17] It is we who will collect it into Quran.
[75:18] Once we recite it, you shall follow such a Quran.
[75:19] Then it is we who will explain it. (It is interesting to note that this is verse 19 as well though I am not going to make any more assumptions about this than necessary)

the above verses are exactly what i mean about the hadith. he only ever spoke what he received from Allah. the hadith and sunnah is what he received from Allah (swt), he did not invent the perfect way of life for a muslim, he wa told what it was, he was simply explaining it, that explanation is the hadith and sunnah.

Here is another article you may find interesting friend:

Does Hadith "Explain" The Qu'ran?

but surah Muhammed is not chapter 19 though, it would have been a miracle if both the chapter and the verse were 19 but they are not. i could probably find something similar starting from the end of a chapter instead of the begining.

Many would disagree that even if the chapter+verse were 19 that it would be a miracle though the miracle definitely exists in the Qu'ran.

Please see here to read about it God willing:

Mathematical Miracle of the Qu'ran

i don't see the article maybe you forgot to post it?

i like how you mentioned that last part about what god intended. in the quran we see a verse saying, ponder upon the quranic verses.

here is a verse i want you to explain to me:

"4:65 But nay, by thy Sustainer! They do not [really] believe unless they make thee [O Prophet] a judge of all on which they disagree among themselves, and then find in their hearts no bar to an acceptance of thy decision and give themselves up [to it] in utter self-surrender."

Sorry about that, it's the same as the book i posted above in this post.

As for the verse my friend.. Where does it say we need to include the prophet's name in the Shahada next to the Most Merciful's? Where does it say we need to mention any prophet/messenger/saint in our prayers as many Muslims practice today when the Salat should be dedicated to GOD alone?

GOD set up the prophet as a great example for those who believed because the prophet followed GOD's Word. Just like in the path, David judged among others. They were trusted "judges" in our world (though far from the Best Judge GOD) because GOD guided them and taught them. This does not mean that people should fabricate lies about the prophet Muhammad and institute them as religious law friend.

Please take a look at that site, if you can find any objectionable information please bring it here and God willing I will show you the counter argument according to the Qu'ran. As someone who was once a Sunni Muslim I know it's hard to accept all this information without more knowledge about the topic so I urge you to read the material which covers it very well. Once you've covered it, it will be easier to trust that you can follow the Qu'ran alone and that you do not need ANY source beside it to have followed GOD's Word. Once that worry about needing other sources is gone, you may very well feel a huge burden has dropped from your shoulders. Peace

 

[fatima_bintu_islam]

Akhi ayman, hadeeths mentioned are not fake. Plz be careful next time, barakallahu feek.
Now, I give you this refutation as a gift in order to appease your heart and mind *smile*

Hadith about breastfeeding explained

​

In the name of Allah, Most Compassionate, Most Merciful,
Let us first look at the translation of the Hadith mentioned in the Sahih of Imam Muslim and elsewhere:
Sayyida Aisha (Allah be pleased with her) reports that Sahla bint Suhayl came to the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) and said: O Messenger of Allah! I see on the face of Abu Hudhayfa (signs of dislike) on the entering of Salim, who is an ally, (into our house). The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said: Suckle him. She said: How can I suckle him as he is a grown-up man? The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) smiled and said: I already know that he is a young man.(Sahih Muslim, no: 1453)
Another version of this Hadith is as follows:
Sayyida Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her) reports that Salim, the freed-slave of Abu Hudhayfa, lived with him and his family in their house. She (i.e. the daughter of Suhayl and wife of Abu Hudhayfa) came to the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) and said: Salim has attained (puberty) as men attain, and he has began to understand what they understand, and he enters our house freely, I, however, think that Abu Hudhayfa feels uncomfortable with this. The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said to her: Suckle him and you would become unlawful for him, and (the dislike) which Abu Hudhayfa feels in his heart will disappear.She returned and said: I have suckled him and what (was there) in the heart of Abu Hudhayfa has disappeared. (Sahih Muslim)
Before coming to any sort of conclusion, we need to first understand the background and context of this incident. Imam Abu al-Abbas al-Qurtubi (Allah have mercy on him) states in his commentary of Sahih Muslim:
Salim (in this Hadith) is Salim ibn Maqal ¦Abu Hudhayfa had adopted him in accordance with the customs of the Arabs. He (Salim) had been brought up and raised by Abu Hudhayfa and his wife as their own son. When the verse of the Quran Call them (your adopted children) by (the names of) their (real) fathers. (Surah al-Ahzab, V: 5) was revealed, the ruling of adopting children was abrogated (in that one can no longer consider an adopted son to be ones own). However, Salim continued to reside and enter the house of Sahla (the wife of Abu Hudhayfa) as he was a minor. When he grew old and came close to puberty, both Abu Hudhayfa and Sahla disliked the idea of him entering freely upon Sahla, but they found it difficult to mention this to him, given the fact that he had lived with them (and was brought up by them), hence they asked the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) regarding this. The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said to Sahla: Suckle him and you would become unlawful for him, and (the dislike) which Abu Hudhayfa feels in his heart will disappear hence she suckled him and it so happened (i.e. the dislike of Abu Hudhayfa disappeared) (al-Mufhim lima Ashkal min talkhis Kitab Muslim, 4/186, Dar Ibn Kathir print)
The above clearly illustrates that Salim was adopted by Abu Hudhayfa and his wife Sahla. He had lived with them and was raised and brought up by them since childhood. However, Islam does not recognize legal adoption and an adopted child is not considered a real child, hence after reaching puberty, the rules of Hijab are applicable. It became very difficult for Salim to live with his adoptive mother due to this rule, thus the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) advised Sahla to make Salim drink her breast-milk, whereby the rules of Hijab would be lifted.
It is narrated in the Tabaqat of Ibn Sad and elsewhere that Sahla would pour her breast-milk into a utensil each day for five continuous days and Salim would drink from it. He did not directly drink from the breast of Sahla, as it is not permitted to expose ones nakedness (awra) in front of a non-Mahram adult, let alone have him suckled. Thus, the objection raised by some non-Muslims that this was an immoral act has no significance, for Sahla did not directly suckle Salim, as he had reached puberty. Imam Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani (Allah have mercy on him) has also mentioned this in his al-Isaba fi tamiz al-Sahaba. (See: Tabaqat Ibn Sad, 8/271 & al-Isaba, 4/337)
This leaves us with the question whether is it allowed for an adult to drink breast-milk, and what implications would that hold?
It is a well-known and recognised fact amongst the majority of the Muslim jurists (fuqaha) that suckling is not permitted after two (or 2 and a half) years, neither does it affect the rules of Hijab and marriage. The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) quite clearly mentioned this in one Hadith where he said: suckling is only valid if it takes place in the suckling period.(Sahih al-Bukhari, no. 2504 & Sahih Muslim, no. 1455) The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) also said: Suckling (radhaa) does not prohibit (i.e. marriage) except which penetrates the intestines (m: meaning which serves as a nourishment for the child) from the breasts, and it is prior to weaning. (Recorded by Imam al-Tirmidhi in his Sunan, no. 1152)
Due to the above narrations, all four Sunni schools of Islamic law are in agreement that suckling and breastfeeding will only be considered (i.e. in effecting the rules of marriage and Hijab) if it takes place in the period designated for it, and it is of no significance after that period.
Thus, scholars mention that the permission given by the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) for Sahla to give her milk to Salim was a special dispensation and an isolated case, and it cannot be generalized. Imam Abu al-Abbas al-Qurtubi (Allah have mercy on him) states that all of the Prophets wives with the exception of Aisha (Allah be pleased with them all) considered this to be a special dispensation, and this is the view taken by the majority of early (salaf) and late (khalaf) scholars. They considered the Hadith to be specific with Salim and Sahla, and are of the opinion that it is not permitted for an adult to drink breast-milk. If an adult did drink breast-milk, it will be of no consequence with regards to marriage and the rules of Hijab. (See: al-Mufhim, 4/186-187 & Ila al-Sunan, 11/119)
Moreover, Umm Salama, the wife of the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) used to say: All the wives of the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) rejected the idea that one can come to them (without observing the rules of Hijab) with this type of breastfeeding (i.e. the suckling of an adult), hence they said to Aisha (Allah be pleased with her): By Allah, we do not consider this but a dispensation given by the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) for Salim. No one is to be allowed to enter (our houses) with this type of fosterage and we do not subscribe to this view.(Sahih Muslim, no: 1454)
Thus, in conclusion, it is not permitted for an adult to intentionally drink breast-milk; neither will it have any bearing on the rules of Hijab and marriage. The companion Salim (Allah be pleased with him) was given a special dispensation by the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) to drink the milk of Sahla, the wife of Abu Hudhayfa, due to the special circumstances of their case. However, Salim did not directly drink the milk from the breast of Sahla, rather, she would pour the milk in a utensil and he would drink from it.
And Allah knows best


Enjoy , barakallahu feekum.

 

[mahmoud mrt]

This issue I thought of it a lot

We can combine the different opinion

We can say that the traditions of the group of “Saheeh” have about 95% of credibility, this means that only about 5% of these traditions are fake, so to know the fake ones scholars should compare these traditions with the holy Qur’an, and every Muslim can compare for himself and chooses a particular scholar’s opinion

Then the group of “Hasan” with we can say has 80% credibility, and again to know the fake ones scholars should compare these traditions with the holy Qur’an, and every Muslim can compare for himself and chooses a particular scholar’s opinion

Some scholars did this comparison, it's called the study of the Garh and Taadeel, meaning to do this comparison so as to accept or refuse a hadith, but the effort is very little, although its extreemly needed

We can only take Hadith from these two groups, and only after comparing them to the holy Qur’an, if they agree with the holy Qur’an then we take it, if not then it’s fake

Even if you don’t see any scholar opinion that you feel comfort with in your pure heart “fetra” then you can choose for yourself, the Fetra that God created you with can simply Guide you,

Scholars are simply people who can make mistakes, and they confess to this

We cannot ever take a Daeef tradition, it’s surly fake,, and taking then is a crime against Islam, ironically many so called scholars take these fake traditions and say it without even noting to the people they are fake, this is lying on God and his Prophet,

We Take the example what was mentioned here, the tradition that theoretically orders the wife to prostrate to her husband, I found out that it’s Daeef, and even if I didn’t get this information it’s surely fake cause it clearly contradicts with the holy Qur’an

The tradition that says that when the man reaches 40 years old and he did not repent then he will go to hell, and his repentance will not be accepted. This turned out to be Daeef also, a Fake lie that contradicts with holy Qur’an and the whole life of the prophet (pbuh) and his companions who many have joined Islam after 40 years old including the father of Abu Bakr himself

The tradition that says meaning that who drink alcohol than after he wakes he prays his prayer will not be accepts and he should not pray until about 40 days or so, this turned out to be Daeef also, cause there is no excuse to leave the prayer even of you drink alcohol, this is a contradiction to the holy Qur’an.

We get to another point, how we see the fake traditions in the Saheeh group, as I said we just compare it to the holy Quran, there is no verse in the holy Quran we can say that its meaning was altered or modified by a Hadith, this is a stupid concept (no offence at all). if this happens then the Hadith is fake for sure

Regarding the apostate issue there are respected scholars including old ones who have researched on this issue and have different opinions, but the issue is simple cause the holy Quran clearly states that there is no compulsion in religion, then any Hadith that says something else is fake, it’s from the 5% fake traditions in the Saheeh group if even it was from this group

The time of Abu Bakr who fought the apostates, he fought a political top treason armies who wanted to divide the Muslim state, these traitors were forcing their people to leave Islam

Abu bakr was fighting to save the Muslim state, not to compel people to Islam


We can apply the same concept to music and singing also, although even the only Hadith they justify prohibiting music is in the Almoalakat section of Bukhari, which means even the Bukhari himself is not sure that it’s right or fake, and even this tradition is talking about a dirty night club with prostitutes, the Holy Qur’an only speaks of using entertaining speech to make people get away from God’s way, not that all entertaining speech is prohibit. But extremist switch the meaning of the verses to justify their extreme thinking and distortion of Islam’s mercy and broadness ,

There are many evidences that music and singing is allowed, including the verse that join the Lhwo (entertaining) to trading, while trading is allowed, so it means that Lahwo (entertaining) is allowed, but not do leave prayers to do any of them(Trading or entertaining). The Hadith where the two girls were singing and playing with Duffs( Arabian drums) in front of the prophet (pbuh) and Abu Bakr ,the prophet (pbuh) Clearly said to Abu Bakr that this is a day of Eid and we should show to Jews that our religion is merciful and broad. Also the singing is the battles like Kahdak and Kahibar, where the prophet (pbuh) and the army of companions were singing to entertain themselves and ease the effort. The companion who was singing with sweet voice in front of the prophet (pbuh) and the camels bearing the women were moving due to this singing, the prophet gently told him be kind to women cause the camels were moving. See how the prophet (pbuh) is merciful and kind


Also I doubt the traditions that speaks of stoning the married person who commit adultery, for the same reason you mentioned, that holy Qur’an did not specify a difference between the married ones and the not married ones for the crimes of adultery, and it clearly mentioned that it’s only 100 lashes


So I understand what you feel Zhakir , I felt it also, but I don’t agree to leave the whole Sunnah

We simply compare to holy Qur’an

Regards,
mahmoud,

 

[.lava]

So I understand what you feel Zhakir , I felt it also, but I don’t agree to leave the whole Sunnah

We simply compare to holy Qur’an

Regards,
mahmoud,

i agree we should compare with Qur'an (so far i know that's what Mohammad SAW says in one of his sayings) and no Muslim should ignore sayings of Mohammad SAW. it is sayings of our Prophet, how could we pretend they don't exist? his actual words! i hope Muslims manage to find a common ground. i believe everything would be OK someday in future

.

 

[bowingtoGod]

I think it odd to deny the hadiths. Even if some, or even most, are fabricated, we have an idea of which were most probably said by him. And to call them barbaric as some Qur'anists do, that is just wrong!

 

[Zhakir]

I think it odd to deny the hadiths. Even if some, or even most, are fabricated, we have an idea of which were most probably said by him. And to call them barbaric as some Qur'anists do, that is just wrong!

probabilites just don't work when it comes about attributing anything to Allah (swt).
In several places it's mentioned in the Quran that doubt should not be followed, and that attributing unconfirmed claimed sayings or things to Allah is totally forbidden.

Shall I seek for judge other than Allah? - when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail." They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt. The word of thy Lord doth find its fulfilment in truth and in justice: None can change His words: for He is the one who heareth and knoweth all. Wert thou to follow the common run of those on earth, they will lead thee away from the way of Allah. They follow nothing but conjecture.......

Quran 6:114-116

 

[beenie]

i'm with .lava on this one. it's healthy and normal to question the validity of some of the ahadith that have become mainstream and acceptable. some are completely contradictory to the Qur'an and should be disregarded...to deny that truth is to be in true denial itself.

it would only make sense that some sayings of the Prophet coincide with the Qur'an; those are the ones to be respected.

overall i have a really hard time with the school of thought that we people can't understand our own religion, and that we need "scholars" to explain even the most simple teachings to us. do we really think that's how Allah intended it? or do you think we as followers have made Islam far more complicated than it needs to be? i vote the latter; yes, religion is a struggle, but i often find it darn near impossible.