Muslims: That's How I Found The True Islam

[TashaN]

overall i have a really hard time with the school of thought that we people can't understand our own religion, and that we need "scholars" to explain even the most simple teachings to us. do we really think that's how Allah intended it? or do you think we as followers have made Islam far more complicated than it needs to be? i vote the latter; yes, religion is a struggle, but i often find it darn near impossible.

I agree with you. There is a verse in the Quran which states that we should ask scholars if we don't know.

I only get back to scholars when i face a difficulty with a specific issue, and even then, i would compare what several scholars had to say about that issue then see the most logical one, or might combine more than one opinion at a time.

Nevertheless, i think it's very important to be careful not to deny the hadiths all together, because we been ordered in the Quran to follow Allah and his Apostle. That means if Prophet Mohammed asked us to do something or not to, it must be from God too whether it was in the Quran or not. Allah has entrusted him with the Quran, wouldn't it be logical to trust him on everything he asks us to do or not to?

 

[bowingtoGod]

probabilites just don't work when it comes about attributing anything to Allah (swt).
In several places it's mentioned in the Quran that doubt should not be followed, and that attributing unconfirmed claimed sayings or things to Allah is totally forbidden.

Shall I seek for judge other than Allah? - when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail." They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt. The word of thy Lord doth find its fulfilment in truth and in justice: None can change His words: for He is the one who heareth and knoweth all. Wert thou to follow the common run of those on earth, they will lead thee away from the way of Allah. They follow nothing but conjecture.......

Quran 6:114-116

But if something is uncertain we are best to avoid it that is true.
But if you say
so and so is idiotic,
then you find out that Prophet Muhammad (saws) DID say that, then what are you going to say to Allah (swt)?

 

[Zhakir]

But if something is uncertain we are best to avoid it that is true.
But if you say
so and so is idiotic,
then you find out that Prophet Muhammad (saws) DID say that, then what are you going to say to Allah (swt)?

That's a good question. Doubts are not the source that Allah (swt) wants us to be judged to, in other words we should ignore it . Saying "i don't if the Prophet said it"
is what we should say. If the Hadith calles for a bad theaching (e.g Murder) we should fight it and refuse it and be sure it's not of the prophet, but if it calls for a good teaching like (e.g Honesty) we say that from the sources Allah gave us we know that honesty is good, therefore our prophet called for it -not necessarly the same exact words but the meaning-and that we didn't need a hadith to know this.
We don't call such a hadith idiotic.
Other hadith which don't have knowledge to judge we hold our mouths, Yet though sunni/shiat/sufi muslims confess that any hadith is doubtful, they keep saying "the prophet said",it sould be replaced by "it's claimed that the prophet said".

 

[ruhnafsoul]

Hello eselam
But what Muhammad .(swt) wants us to follow?,the follower of the Quran? or that of the hadith ?
violating the Quran? or should she breast feed that man,

verily u are not a believer.. zhakir
U are far from the KNOWLEDGE of ALLAH.. Your heart is full with anger and hatred.. the act of amaratul bis'u and lawamah.

U carry a heavy baggage of reading knowledge.. carrying the imprint of a knowledge.. not a knowledge itself.. only an imprint. You shall leave it.. and give back your heart to be filled with ALLAH.. by the Mahabba of Rasullullah S.A.W.

Go away.. Your words had become a bitter false statement in the heart of a mukmin.. Never in the heart of a true mukmin reject the Quran and hadith.. and spread hatred among muslims in the religion of ALLAH..

You had no basic adab in Islam.. Go and earn the siddiq, mahabbah and taakzeem from Allah, to Allah and His Messengers, beloved prophet Muhammad, Rasullallah S.A.W from a true mursheed.. May ALLAH gives HIS Rahma on you

 

[Zhakir]

verily u are not a believer.. zhakir
U are far from the KNOWLEDGE of ALLAH.. Your heart is full with anger and hatred.. the act of amaratul bis'u and lawamah.

U carry a heavy baggage of reading knowledge.. carrying the imprint of a knowledge.. not a knowledge itself.. only an imprint. You shall leave it.. and give back your heart to be filled with ALLAH.. by the Mahabba of Rasullullah S.A.W.

Go away.. Your words had become a bitter false statement in the heart of a mukmin.. Never in the heart of a true mukmin reject the Quran and hadith.. and spread hatred among muslims in the religion of ALLAH..

You had no basic adab in Islam.. Go and earn the siddiq, mahabbah and taakzeem from Allah, to Allah and His Messengers, beloved prophet Muhammad, Rasullallah S.A.W from a true mursheed.. May ALLAH gives HIS Rahma on you

Peace be upon you.
When you are ready to discuss the topic and debate, i'll be happy to respond.

 

[A Thousand Suns]

" leave alone those who take their religion to be mere play and amusement, and are deceived by the life of this world. but proclaim (to them) this (truth): that every soul delivers itself to ruin by its own acts: it will find for itself no protector or intercessor except Allah: if it offered every ransom, (or reparation), none will be accepted: such is (the end of) those who deliver themselves to ruin by their own acts: they will have for drink (only) boiling water, and for punishment, one most grievous: for they persisted in rejecting Allah."[Quran Surah: 6, Verse: 70]

"And there are among them illiterates, who know not the Book, but (see therein their own) desires, and they do nothing but conjecture. (Quran, 2:78)"

 

[ConfusedKuri]

So according to a Sahih hadith it is okay to stone people to death for leaving Islam? Doesn't it say in the Qu'ran "Lakum deenukum wa liya deen"?! :sarcastic:areyoucra

 

[Gharib]

Surah Al Kafirun was revealed in response to the idol worshipers, they came to the prophet and said to him they have come up with a peace plan or something, they said that muslims should worship the idols for a set time and then the idolaters would worship Allah in return and Allah replied to them with the words of Surah Al Kafirun. it doesn't work with your example.

as for the hadith, yes it is stated that those who leave islam should be killed, don't know if by stoning or not but thats all i know. furthermore when it comes to the laws of islam, people think they are so backward that there cannot possibly be any justice. take that hadith for example, what everyone pictures in their head is a muslim saying he doesn't believe in Allah and he is immediately chained up and then killed. it doesn't work that way. everyone is given a chance, peoples iman never stays the same it is constantly increasing and decreasing and with time it increases again. and if this isn't allowed to happen to one who leaves islam, then that would be an unjust law. hasn't your imans strengh gone up and down? remember what you said about hinduism in the PM?

i have read what a scholar had written on this issue, thats why i've said what i've said.

 

[ConfusedKuri]

Yeah but if I lived in an Islamic country and decided to convert to Hinduism according to their "shariah" I would be executed? :areyoucra:run:

 

[Gharib]

Yeah but if I lived in an Islamic country and decided to convert to Hinduism according to their "shariah" I would be executed? :areyoucra:run:

thats what i'm trying to explain to you, you don't just get executed without having given time to repent or ask for help from the government or appropriate authorities (scholars & imams). people always change their minds. thats why i mentioned hindusim, because of what you said in your message to me.

i hope i'm not making this confusing for you. i'm only trying to explain it.

 

[A-ManESL]

I suppose the following hadith is under discussion:

It is related from ‘Ikrima that ‘Ali burnt some people and that reached Ibn ‘Abbas who said, “If it had been me, I would not have burned them because the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, ‘Do not punish with Allah’s punishment.’ I would have killed them as the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, ‘If someone changes his religion, kill him.’” Muwatta [Book 21, 15]

The context does not indicate the scenario in which Ali(RA) had burnt the houses and for what reason. It may be that the Prophet was speaking in reference to the saboteurs who made a theatrical outward show of conversion to Islam only to discover the Muslim's military weaknesses and report back to the enemy during the war between the Meccan and Yathrib/Medina. This hadith must be understood in contrast with the fact that Ubayd-Allah ibn Jahsh converted to Christianity and Muhammad(pbuh) left him unharmed. Some scholars say that the death reference was prescribed during early Islam to combat political conspiracies against Islam and Muslims, and is not intended for those who simply change their belief or express a change in belief.


Another point: When the hadith uses the word "religion" we normally understand it through the modern European meaning. This is how the Arabic word "din" is commonly translated. But the real sense of the word "din" is something else: it is the complete way of life, which includes the political allegiance of a person. To betray the political pledge of allegiance was a huge act of traitorous behavior in the Prophets society. To merely translate this hadith by using the word "religion" is fundamentally incorrect. The reason is that such a translation does not convey the fact that the person, who (as was the norm in those days) had given a pledge of political allegiance, was breaking his pledge.


Here are some more incidents in literature regarding apostasy:

A bedouin gave the Pledge of allegiance to Allah's Apostle for Islam. Then the bedouin got fever at Medina, came to Allah's Apostle and said, "O Allah's Apostle! Cancel my Pledge," But Allah's Apostle refused. Then he came to him (again) and said, "O Allah's Apostle! Cancel my Pledge." But the Prophet refused Then he came to him (again) and said, "O Allah's Apostle! Cancel my Pledge." But the Prophet refused. The bedouin finally went out (of Medina) whereupon Allah's Apostle said, "Medina is like a pair of bellows (furnace): It expels its impurities and brightens and clears its good. [Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol. 9, #318]

Notably, as Dr. M. E. Subhani explained in his book:
“This was an open case of apostasy. But the Prophet neither punished the Bedouin nor asked anyone to do it. He allowed him to leave Madina. Nobody harmed him.” [Apostasy in Islam (New Delhi, India: Global Media Publications, 2005), pp. 23-24.]

Some people accepted Islam during the period of Umar bin Abdul Aziz, who is called the fifth rightful caliph of Islam. All these people renounced Islam sometimes later. Maimoon bin Mahran the governor of the area wrote to the caliph about these people. In reply Umar bin Abdul Aziz ordered him to release those people and asked him to re-impose jizya on them. [Musannaf Abdur Razzaq, pp. 171-10, cited in M. E. Subhani,Apostasy in Islam (New Delhi, India: Global Media Publications, 2005), pp. 23-24. Abdur Razzaq ibn Humama (d. 211 AH). This is the earliest musannaf (a hadith collection arranged in topical chapters) work in existence.]

There are many Islamic scholars who hold the view that what we mean by apostasy in the modern sense is not punishable.

Regards

 

[ConfusedKuri]

Jazakallah khair for the explanation, it sounds far more logic, especially since it's put into a historical context.

 

[Gharib]

if we look at it in the historical context, there are many more cases of apostacy that occured during the prophets (saws) lifetime. many people left islam when the prophet (saws) spoke about his night journey. this ofcourse happened in mecca. now in mecca, the majority of the revelations had to do with iman. in medina Allah started to reveal his laws upon humanity to the prophet (saws). what we must remember is that the Qur'an was revealed gradually unlike the other revelations before it. in medina although Allah started to reveal his laws, i know of a hadith where the muslims were still not forbiden from drinking alcohol.

furthermore, why didn't anyone falsely claim to be a muslim in Mecca, to also find out about the plans of the prophet (saws). and as i said, some muslims did turn back to disbelief upon hearing about the night journey, why didn't the prophet (saws) order their execution for reasons of spying/treason etc etc? my answer is because Allah didn't reveal much of Shariah while his prophet (saws) was in Mecca.

what i would like brother A-manESL from you is can you provide dates for the time of occurence to those events in the hadith you have mentioned? the dates will explain what i am saying.