Must God necessarily be omnimax?

[Jeremiah]

Does the Creator, the Alpha and Omega, necessarlity need to be omnimax? Perhaps God is not all-powerful, but instead is just really, really, super powerful.

I think the ominmax concept is flawed, it is not at all congruent with the world we see around us. But a god that, may be super smart and super powerful, but not all-powerful/knowing, makes more sense.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

Does the Creator, the Alpha and Omega, necessarlity need to be omnimax? Perhaps God is not all-powerful, but instead is just really, really, super powerful.

I think the ominmax concept is flawed, it is not at all congruent with the world we see around us. But a god that, may be super smart and super powerful, but not all-powerful/knowing, makes more sense.

He doesn't need to be, but his supposed "word" says he is.

 

[Breathe]

Does the Creator, the Alpha and Omega, necessarlity need to be omnimax?

I don't think so.

I find many "omnimax" concepts of God to be quite.. difficult to follow, personally.

I think the ominmax concept is flawed, it is not at all congruent with the world we see around us. But a god that, may be super smart and super powerful, but not all-powerful/knowing, makes more sense.

I agree with you. They make more sense than all-knowing, all-powerful, and so on Deities. Omnimax qualities only raise questions, contradictions, problems and so on.

Well known ones, for example, are: All-Knowing: Does God know the future? Does he know our lives before we do them? Then there is no free will.
Can God make a rock so heavy He cannot lift it? Then he is not all-powerful. Can God change the value of pi to something different?

And that's leaving out the problem of evil and omnibenevolence.

 

[Penumbra]

Does the Creator, the Alpha and Omega, necessarlity need to be omnimax? Perhaps God is not all-powerful, but instead is just really, really, super powerful.

I think the ominmax concept is flawed, it is not at all congruent with the world we see around us. But a god that, may be super smart and super powerful, but not all-powerful/knowing, makes more sense.

No, a god need not be omnimax.

The ability to do "anything" or know "everything" is a vague and unhelpful concept created by humans. It leads to silly paradoxes like the rock lifting example.

 

[Jeremiah]

He doesn't need to be, but his supposed "word" says he is.

Well, people do tend to have the tendency to exaggerate things.

 

[PolyHedral]

But then what else could be exaggerated? Once you've discounted some part of the "Word," you can't take the rest on faith.

 

[Misty]

Does the Creator, the Alpha and Omega, necessarlity need to be omnimax? Perhaps God is not all-powerful, but instead is just really, really, super powerful.

I think the ominmax concept is flawed, it is not at all congruent with the world we see around us. But a god that, may be super smart and super powerful, but not all-powerful/knowing, makes more sense.

Maybe it is just one of many gods and not really the big cheese at all!

 

[Meow Mix]

Does the Creator, the Alpha and Omega, necessarlity need to be omnimax? Perhaps God is not all-powerful, but instead is just really, really, super powerful.

I think the ominmax concept is flawed, it is not at all congruent with the world we see around us. But a god that, may be super smart and super powerful, but not all-powerful/knowing, makes more sense.

Is God a necessarily existent being or is God contingent?

If God is ontologically necessary, why should God's power have limit -- whence did that limit come from and what determines it?

Say that we can represent God's power on a scale of 1 to 10 with 1 being weak, comparable to a life form on earth without technology, and 10 being omnipotent.

If God's power is anywhere below 10 there must be something that's limiting the power* -- what mechanism would cause that and why should it have that value, whatever value it is?

It actually raises more metaphysical problems to assert God isn't omnipotent.

Edit: * - I reread this after posting and thought it sounded as if I'm arguing that God "starts out" omnipotent and then gets limited somehow... that's not what I'm saying; I'm not presupposing that God must be omnipotent. By limiting God's power I simply mean that if God has a scalar power (some amount of power, but with an upper limit) whence came that upper limit?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

It would certainly explain why he did such a ******* job with humanity.

 

[PolyHedral]

I would say that representing the scale as 1 being lifeforms with no technology and 10 being omnipotence is inaccurate; It would be a closer analogy if 1 were no technology, and positive infinity was omnipotence.

And the limit of God's power may well be the laws of physics.

 

[Meow Mix]

I would say that representing the scale as 1 being lifeforms with no technology and 10 being omnipotence is inaccurate; It would be a closer analogy if 1 were no technology, and positive infinity was omnipotence.

And the limit of God's power may well be the laws of physics.

Not really because there is an upper limit even to omnipotent power: actualizing all logically possible states of affairs.

However that limit makes sense; some arbitrary limit in between requires explanation.

 

[Penumbra]

But then what else could be exaggerated? Once you've discounted some part of the "Word," you can't take the rest on faith.

Which parts of which "Words" indicate that God is omnimax? Are you referring to the Bible, Qur'an, or some other book, and which parts?

Is God a necessarily existent being or is God contingent?

If God is ontologically necessary, why should God's power have limit -- whence did that limit come from and what determines it?

Say that we can represent God's power on a scale of 1 to 10 with 1 being weak, comparable to a life form on earth without technology, and 10 being omnipotent.

If God's power is anywhere below 10 there must be something that's limiting the power* -- what mechanism would cause that and why should it have that value, whatever value it is?

It actually raises more metaphysical problems to assert God isn't omnipotent.

Edit: * - I reread this after posting and thought it sounded as if I'm arguing that God "starts out" omnipotent and then gets limited somehow... that's not what I'm saying; I'm not presupposing that God must be omnipotent. By limiting God's power I simply mean that if God has a scalar power (some amount of power, but with an upper limit) whence came that upper limit?

I'd find it reasonable if there existed a god, even a necessary one, to be limited by the laws of logic. It may also be limited by its own nature. As in, if there existed a necessary Logos, it may only be able to create certain kinds of universes based on the underlying metaphysical realities of itself.

 

[Meow Mix]

I'd find it reasonable if there existed a god, even a necessary one, to be limited by the laws of logic. It may also be limited by its own nature. As in, if there existed a necessary Logos, it may only be able to create certain kinds of universes based on the underlying metaphysical realities of itself.

I agree, but that's the definition of omnipotence: the capacity to actualize any logically possible states of affairs.

 

[AxisMundi]

Does the Creator, the Alpha and Omega, necessarlity need to be omnimax? Perhaps God is not all-powerful, but instead is just really, really, super powerful.

I think the ominmax concept is flawed, it is not at all congruent with the world we see around us. But a god that, may be super smart and super powerful, but not all-powerful/knowing, makes more sense.

We Gaels believe that all deities, including Jehovah, are born of the human will.

And that all deities, including Jehova, are bound by certain Natural Laws.

This, of course, eliminates the "omnimax" ideal of Jehovah.

 

[PolyHedral]

Not really because there is an upper limit even to omnipotent power: actualizing all logically possible states of affairs.

The reason I brought that scale up is because the leap from Kardashev Type III and total omnipotence is discontinuous, as the leap from finite to infinite numbers is.

 

[battar]

God can't be Omnipotent because the concept is a contradiction. Consider the old chestnut, can God create a rock so heavy he can't lift it? First consider the fact that given a shovel and a bag of cement, I can create a rock so heavy I can't lift it. So it isn't an impossible task. Now lets see God do what I just did.
Omnipotence, like omniscience, is an abstract idea. The label was attached to God as a superlative.

 

[Penumbra]

I agree, but that's the definition of omnipotence: the capacity to actualize any logically possible states of affairs.

Omnipotence is generally not defined quite like that. It's having unlimited power, or the ability to do anything, and the term is vague and unhelpful. Some add on conditions, like it must be logically possible.

In my post, I presented two possible scenarios for how God could be limited. The first was that it could be limited by logic. The second is that it could be limited by the metaphysical nature of its own self. Whatever the most fundamental laws of physics are in this universe... perhaps this god could only have done it that way, because those are the only powers it had available for itself when creating all that it has created. Or perhaps there are other options it had as well, but the set of options was limited to certain powers that this deity possessed in and of itself, rather than some unlimited set of options and powers.

 

[Atomist]

Is God a necessarily existent being or is God contingent?

If God is ontologically necessary, why should God's power have limit -- whence did that limit come from and what determines it?

Say that we can represent God's power on a scale of 1 to 10 with 1 being weak, comparable to a life form on earth without technology, and 10 being omnipotent.

If God's power is anywhere below 10 there must be something that's limiting the power* -- what mechanism would cause that and why should it have that value, whatever value it is?

It actually raises more metaphysical problems to assert God isn't omnipotent.

Edit: * - I reread this after posting and thought it sounded as if I'm arguing that God "starts out" omnipotent and then gets limited somehow... that's not what I'm saying; I'm not presupposing that God must be omnipotent. By limiting God's power I simply mean that if God has a scalar power (some amount of power, but with an upper limit) whence came that upper limit?

Exactly... if god is limited by logic then he can't possible be the origin of logic... same with morality and whatever things you want to ascribe to be god given.

 

[Eliot Wild]

I suppose the answer to the question of God's 'omnimax'-like qualities hinges on the definitions one employs to describe these qualities.

I didn't spend a lot of time referring back to different definitions of 'omnipotence', but I did take a look at a few different online dictionary entries to see the 'standard' or most-widely used definition of the word. I didn't really like any of 'em.

Of course, there will always be some theists that claim God can do absolutely anything. He can dunk better than Michael Jordan, paint better than Picasso, shoot a rifle more accurately than Alvin York and tell a joke that's funnier than Richard Pryor.

However, while God can perform the impossible, God cannot do the illogical and the absurd. God can defy the laws of gravity, I would suppose. Einstein says matter can't travel faster than the speed of light, correct? You brainy science-types help me out here. I'm thinking God could break, ignore or simply circumvent this and other pesky rules of physics, if He wanted to do so. And if I'm wrong about Einstein and the light speed rule thing, I would ask you science-types to please correct or ignore me. Even if I'm a little off on the technical aspects of my own argument, I hope you all see and understand what I'm trying to say. God can probably create and destroy matter as well as energy, but He can't tell a truthful lie or make a circular square.

In my estimation, which I'll concede could be woefully wrong, logic, unlike physical laws, is not a set of natural 'rules' by which our universe/nature operates. Logic, unlike the laws of science, does not confine God nor does it impose limits on his omnipotence. Logic is a medium by which we pinpoint and communicate truth, or so it seems to me. So, the old paradox about God and the 'rock so heavy He Himself can't lift it' does not demonstrate God's divine limits; it does indicate to me, however, that mankind's ability to understand and convey certain truths is somewhat confined by our own flawed and fallible instruments of personal communication.

 

[Willamena]

Does the Creator, the Alpha and Omega, necessarlity need to be omnimax? Perhaps God is not all-powerful, but instead is just really, really, super powerful.

I think the ominmax concept is flawed, it is not at all congruent with the world we see around us. But a god that, may be super smart and super powerful, but not all-powerful/knowing, makes more sense.

The image of "God" as omniscient/omnipresent/omnipotent is the creator of everything, present in everything, hence knowing everything. I don't see why that image is a problem.

Personally, it's the only image of "God" that does make sense.