My Abrahamic Theodicy

[Nessa]

If a benevolent all-omni god created us and heaven, why not just start life in heaven?

If god created evil, and will condemn some of his creation for eternity, then he isn't benevolent. A kind or compassionate god would not create those he knew would fail his standards.

 

[Quagmire]

If a benevolent all-omni god created us and heaven, why not just start life in heaven?

Maybe He did; Luke 17:21
"nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within you."

If god created evil, and will condemn some of his creation for eternity, then he isn't benevolent.

I believe this too. :yes:

A kind or compassionate god would not create those he knew would fail his standards.

Or maybe He would, but He just doesn't get as upset about it as we've been led to believe.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Genesis 1:31
God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.

Is there some dispute about what it said originally, Jay?

No, there is a reasonable issue with interpretation. The verse can also be read to suggest a creator who steps back from 'his' work and acknowledges it to be precisely as intended.

 

[Troublemane]

YES! that is definitely why evil exists. You cant have pleasure without pain. energy exists in two poles, always does. And virtue is prized precisely because its difficult to obtain. if it was easy, ha! then it be no big deal.

:angel2:

 

[Quagmire]

No, there is a reasonable issue with interpretation. The verse can also be read to suggest a creator who steps back from 'his' work and acknowledges it to be precisely as intended.

But wouldn't anything along the lines of "exactly as God intended" be an acceptable definition of good (I mean at least for the purposes of a theological discussion)?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

But wouldn't anything along the lines of "exactly as God intended" be an acceptable definition of good (I mean at least for the purposes of a theological discussion)?

Why? It is interesting, by the way, that the Targum of Onkelos is rendered: "And the Lord saw all that He had made, and, behold, it was very steadfast."

'Good' & 'bad' as moral categories have been retrojected into the text.

 

[Quagmire]

Why?

If we're starting with the presumption that God Himself is good, I mean. Which, to the limited extent that I've studied the worlds religions thus far, seems to be a pretty universal assumption.

It is interesting, by the way, that the Targum of Onkelos is rendered: "And the Lord saw all that He had made, and, behold, it was very steadfast."

But then you could say that "Steadfast" would be a pretty acceptable definition of good from a builder's (Creator's) point of view.

'Good' & 'bad' as moral categories have been retrojected into the text.

Or the story itself may be an anology explaining how/why man developed his habit of thinking dualisticly in the first place (?)

 

[Storm]

Actually, it says we came up with the whole Good/Evil dicotimie;

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
—Isaiah 45:7
​

If you look in Genisis you'll see, "God looked upon all He had made and declared it good".

This verse could easily be interpreted to support my assertion that evil is ultimately beneficial.

Ok, so what happened here? Did nakedness suddenly become evil after A&E ate the "apple"?

Doesn't say that. It just says they were suddenly ashamed of something that God had declared good, and that they hadn't even noticed up til then.

No, before they ate of the Tree of Knowledge, they were too innocent to know to be ashamed.

 

[Willamena]

Now, it can be argued that an omnimax God could have simply Created us as wise and noble as He wished.

Not if your previous premise is true.

 

[Storm]

Not if your previous premise is true.

I think you missed the point of the "it can be argued." I was anticipating a particular argument, successfully.

 

[Storm]

If a benevolent all-omni god created us and heaven, why not just start life in heaven?

Why Create us at all?

If god created evil, and will condemn some of his creation for eternity, then he isn't benevolent. A kind or compassionate god would not create those he knew would fail his standards.

Ah, yes, eternal damnation. You'll note I left it out of the OP, for two reasons:
1) It's not universal even to the Abrahamic faiths. The Jews don't believe in it, afaik. Even those who believe in it don't agree on what it means. For some it's simply separation from God.
2) The most popular (imx) version, that of fire and torment, is impossible to reconcile with the primise of God's benevolence, imo.

 

[Willamena]

I think you missed the point of the "it can be argued." I was anticipating a particular argument, successfully.

That's precisely what I wasn't missing. It cannot be argued unless it is false.

Is it false?

 

[Storm]

That's precisely what I wasn't missing. It cannot be argued unless it is false.

Then how have people argued it, Patty?

 

[Willamena]

Then how have people argued it, Patty?

I don't know.

 

[Willamena]

Why would a benevolent God Create evil?

My answer: God/self creates all things. There is nothing that God/self hasn't created. Most people don't like that answer, so I suppose the answer to your question is that people create a "reject" of particular things that they/God don't like that they've/God's created.

 

[Quagmire]

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
—Isaiah 45:7​

​

That's the editors fault Storm. Actually, The original draft said, "That which you poor self-deluded little smucks have decided to classify as evil".

Actually, it still says that, but you really gotta look for it.

This verse could easily be interpreted to support my assertion that evil is ultimately beneficial.

:yes: Yes, that evil is actually good, which is what I was saying.

No, before they ate of the Tree of Knowledge, they were too innocent to know to be ashamed.

What does "innocent" mean? Was God innocent too? Because He obviously didn't have a problem with it.

If by innocent you mean the opposite of guilty, you're right. What I'm saying is that we invented guilt, or judgement for that matter, not God (and we still do, and it's still an invention)

 

[Storm]

[/indent]That's the editors fault Storm. Actually, The original draft said, "That which you poor self-deluded little smucks have decided to classify as evil".

Actually, it still says that, but you really gotta look for it.

:yes: Yes, that evil is actually good, which is what I was saying.

Good, we're in agreement, then.

What does "innocent" mean? Was God innocent too? Because He obviously didn't have a problem with it.

If by innocent you mean the opposite of guilty, you're right. What I'm saying is that we invented guilt, or judgement for that matter, not God (and we still do, and it's still an invention)

"Innocent" in this context means without knowledge of Good and Evil.

I can't agree that we just made it up. I'd rather have kept the story of the Fall out of it, but if we're going to use that.... Adam and Eve ate of the Tree of Knowledge, not Imagination. The rules, the dichotomy of good and evil already existed, they just didn't know about them

 

[Willamena]

All the world is one bright pearl.

Edit: I truely believe that metaphor.

 

[Quagmire]

Good, we're in agreement, then.


"Innocent" in this context means without knowledge of Good and Evil.

I can't agree that we just made it up. I'd rather have kept the story of the Fall out of it, but if we're going to use that.... Adam and Eve ate of the Tree of Knowledge, not Imagination.

More like the Tree of Opinion. I don't believe they aquired any actual knowledge. If Good and Evil are subjective, how can there ever be any actual "knowledge" thereof?

The rules, the dichotomy of good and evil already existed, they just didn't know about them[/quote]

How is that possible if God already declared everything to be good?

 

[Storm]

More like the Tree of Opinion. I don't believe they aquired any actual knowledge. If Good and Evil are subjective, how can there ever be any actual "knowledge" thereof?

The rules, the dichotomy of good and evil already existed, they just didn't know about them

How is that possible if God already declared everything to be good?

And this is why I'm not an Abrahamic. No matter how you try to reconcile it, it never stands up to scrutiny.

You got me, Quagmire. I can't defend it any further.