My Biggest Beef With Modern Christianity

[Jordan St. Francis]

That's pretty close to the reason why I've got a major problem with the idea of baptism, at least in the Catholic context of the necessity of baptism and original sin. To me, an implicit message in the ceremony is "Hooray! This child, who was previously so inherently evil that he/she could've been rightly and justly tortured for all eternity, is now fixed!"

Now... if anyone can help me figure out a way to not get this meaning out of it, I'd appreciate it, as you'd probably be saving me from a major ruckus with my in-laws.

Penguin,

It is worth noting that Catholicism does not subscribe to the doctrine of "total depravity"- that the Fall has completely broken us spirituality and rendered us unable to reach out or seek God.

The reason infants are baptized is because, in the first place, all human beings have fallen in Adam. That is to say, nature has been twisted, but its not "inherently evil". The stain of sin, which all inherit, is washed away in baptism because it sacramentally unites us to Christ, burying us with him as it were, so that we can rightfully be considered members of the Church- His Body.

Baptism is our sacramental entrance into the new creation, symbolizing the passing of the former world which we are all apart of (born into) and which remains with us in the presence of sin and death, and the immanent and sprouting new world embodied in the Resurrected Christ.

There was never a doctrine that unbaptized infants are damned, as far as I know, it was only taught that they would go to Limbo- neither eternal damnation nor eternal bliss. This was never taught de fide, rather was put forth as an influential theolougmenon (theological hypothesis), and in recent years has been essentially dropped from the teaching of the Church.

In Catholicism baptism is also seen as the New Testament equivalent of circumcision- it marks one out as a member of God's "Chosen People". The Church has also revived quite antiquated theologies which speak of, for example, a "baptism of desire" and discussed numerous circumstances under which salvation is acquired without a formal or material baptism.

 

[roli]

I've actually talked to a man (he was formerly clergy before being excommunicated for being gay) who told me that his baby daughter deserved to be killed based on his theology. He was in general a nice person and a good father, but his mind is so twisted that he would actually say that his daughter deserved to die the day she was born. I simply cannot fathom how people could hold these ridiculous views based on their own literalist interpretation of a myth thousands of years old written in a primitive culture.

I don't know who he was clergy with ,but with that philosophy, and not theology,he would'nt have been apart of those who followed the Jesus of scripture.
There are many who profess their allegiance to God ,Christianity as there were in Jesus' day,but not all who say, Lord, Lord will enter heaven.Only those who walk in the footsteps of Jesus
,,,and Jesus will say to them, depart from me you workers of iniquity, I never knew you.

So try not to get so caught up on this one man's twisted world views and his self proclaimed association to Jesus, he's walking another way contrary to Christ.

 

[Katzpur]

i looked into LDS but they were christians (i thought it was an agnostic religious group)

Man, we are truly between a rock and a hard place! People don't like us because they say we're not Christians. Other people don't like us because they say we are! We can't win!

 

[roli]

You mam have hit the nail on the head. Very well put. Not all churches push this "shock and awe" type doctrine onto people but alot do. That is what pushed me from Christianity during my teen years.

I think much of the world as yet to discover our separation from God is not based on a lack of good works but our carnal sinful nature handed down to us through our forefathers.
The question we will answer to when we meet God will be one based on righteousness and not on goodness.
It does'nt matter how good a sinner is,it's the righteousness found in Christ that when we believe and receive Christ we have his righteousness imputed and he becomes our propitiation and it will be that which will deliver from eternal death and separation from God.

 

[SoliDeoGloria]

Man, we are truly between a rock and a hard place! People don't like us because they say we're not Christians. Other people don't like us because they say we are! We can't win!

Sincerely,
SoliDeoGloria

 

[J Bryson]

Man, we are truly between a rock and a hard place! People don't like us because they say we're not Christians. Other people don't like us because they say we are! We can't win!

I've always thought of you as economy sized Christians.

 

[Katzpur]

I've always thought of you as economy sized Christians.

Well, my boss (who is also my best friend) is pretty anti-Mormon. She tells me I'm an "evolved Mormon." I'm not sure what that is. Somehow, I think it's supposed to be a compliment, but it kind of strikes me an a bit of an underhanded one.

 

[*Paul*]

... is the philosophy of human depravity. "None but God is good," good works are "as filthy rags," we all deserve damnation.

It's disgusting and abusive, and I cannot for the life of me understand why otherwise healthy people would ever believe it. Of course, I feel the same way about battered spouses who stay with their abusers. I don't see any difference between the two.

Now, I get that in Christian theology, God is perfect and we're not. But we're still His children, right? The pinnacle of His awesome Creation. Why would He bother if He finds us so disgusting?

Those of us who believe this find beauty in this truth rather than the ugliness that you see. The beauty is that although man is so incined toward sin and even though the image of God in man is so marred as to make us ugly and defiled, God looked at us with love and compassion and sent His dear Son to redeem us from this sorry state. But this is not the end, for those of us who receive Him he has promised to rid us of our ugliness and to make us into the beautiful and perfect image of His Son.

It is the ultimate human developemnt plan but first we must know ourselves and face the ugly truth and persever with patience waiting for the fulfilment of the promise.

 

[Seven]

There is so much about this teaching that I cannot reconcile.

What's stopping god from just forgiving humanity. Why is it necessary for him to send his son (who isn't actually his son, but god himself) to be killed as some kind of sacrifice to himself in order for mankind to be forgiven for something they haven't actually done anyway but inherited

Where's the love?

 

[Katzpur]

There is so much about this teaching that I cannot reconcile.

What's stopping god from just forgiving humanity. Why is it necessary for him to send his son (who isn't actually his son, but god himself) to be killed as some kind of sacrifice to himself in order for mankind to be forgiven for something they haven't actually done anyway but inherited

Where's the love?

There are evidently not only things you can't reconcile, but things you don't understand in the first place. God could just forgive humaniy because He is a merciful God, but because He is also a just God who has laid down both laws and consequences, He cannot merely choose to ignore disobedience. If He were to do that, He might as well have not given us commandments in the first place. Since no unclean thing can dwell in His presence, He has made it possible for someone who is perfect to pay the debt incurred by those who are not, thereby meeting the demands of both justice and mercy. His Son, Jesus Christ, really was His Son, incidentally. They are distinct personages who are "one in will, purpose, mind and heart" and who together share the goal of bringing about the immortality and eternal life of man. Jesus Christ atonement did not redeem mankind of a sin we inherited because we didn't, and can't inherit sin. We will be punished (or forgiven, as the case may be) for our own sins and not for Adam's transgression. It would be nonsense to assume that God would punish us for something someone else did wrong.

 

[Storm]

Man, we are truly between a rock and a hard place! People don't like us because they say we're not Christians. Other people don't like us because they say we are! We can't win!

I like you, Katz. :hug:

 

[Katzpur]

I like you, Katz. :hug:

The feeling's mutual, Storm! :yes:

 

[Seven]

There are evidently not only things you can't reconcile, but things you don't understand in the first place. God could just forgive humaniy because He is a merciful God, but because He is also a just God who has laid down both laws and consequences, He cannot merely choose to ignore disobedience. If He were to do that, He might as well have not given us commandments in the first place. Since no unclean thing can dwell in His presence, He has made it possible for someone who is perfect to pay the debt incurred by those who are not, thereby meeting the demands of both justice and mercy. His Son, Jesus Christ, really was His Son, incidentally. They are distinct personages who are "one in will, purpose, mind and heart" and who together share the goal of bringing about the immortality and eternal life of man. Jesus Christ atonement did not redeem mankind of a sin we inherited because we didn't, and can't inherit sin. We will be punished (or forgiven, as the case may be) for our own sins and not for Adam's transgression. It would be nonsense to assume that God would punish us for something someone else did wrong.

Sorry Katzpur but it all just seems arbitrary to me.

I understand that you believe Jesus and God are separate beings - my former version of Christianity taught the same. I just went with the same person theory because it seems to be the most common.
Likewise, your faith may not teach that sin is inherited, but the vast majority of Christianity does in fact teach that we sinful by default, which I agree is nonsense- actually I'd go so far as to say immoral.

 

[Katzpur]

Sorry Katzpur but it all just seems arbitrary to me.

Okay, I'm lost. Arbitrary in what regard?

 

[Seven]

Okay, I'm lost. Arbitrary in what regard?

In the sense that God's definition of justice is arbitrary. If something is just just because god says so, that's arbitrary.

In any case, I don't see how the ransom sacrifice solves anything. If a friend of mine was charged with murder and I was to offer to serve his jail time on his behalf, how would that be just?

 

[MysticPhD]

Okay, I'm lost. Arbitrary in what regard?

The notion of punishment itself as an end. A beneficent God has no wrath or vengeance to assuage. The whole point of Jesus's mission was to eradicate that erroneous OT view of God and replace it with His unconditional love for ALL humankind. The whole scourging and crucifixion thing was an unavoidable consequence of bringing this message to the barbarians that we were at that time. God knew we would do it in our ignorance . . . so did Jesus. Jesus was willing to suffer at our ignorant and barbarous hands to show the TRUE NATURE of God by NOT smiting us or otherwise acting like the barbarous OT Yahweh. "Forgive them they know not what they do."

 

[dawny0826]

... is the philosophy of human depravity. "None but God is good," good works are "as filthy rags," we all deserve damnation.

It's disgusting and abusive, and I cannot for the life of me understand why otherwise healthy people would ever believe it. Of course, I feel the same way about battered spouses who stay with their abusers. I don't see any difference between the two.

Now, I get that in Christian theology, God is perfect and we're not. But we're still His children, right? The pinnacle of His awesome Creation. Why would He bother if He finds us so disgusting?

The cynic in me says that so many churches push this to grind people down, make them small and terrified so that they'll throw themselves on God's mercy. Which brings us back to abuse.

Well, that's enough ranting for now. Thoughts?

DISCLAIMER: I'm aware that not all Christians hold such self-flagellating views.

I don't know. On some days, my thoughts mirror yours. On others, I feel it important that Christians remind each other of the reasons why we needed saving. It keeps us humble. Reminds us not to be so flippin' self righteous.

But we aren't supposed to wallow in despair and grieve over our flaws. The Christian life is surely not without trials but it's meant to be a life of joy and happiness in God. The idea of following Christ is to forsake your own wants and desires and to follow Him. A Christian won't be bummed about doing this, though. You're made whole by Christ, not lessened.

 

[Katzpur]

The notion of punishment itself as an end. A beneficent God has no wrath or vengeance to assuage. The whole point of Jesus's mission was to eradicate that erroneous OT view of God and replace it with His unconditional love for ALL humankind. The whole scourging and crucifixion thing was an unavoidable consequence of bringing this message to the barbarians that we were at that time. God knew we would do it in our ignorance . . . so did Jesus. Jesus was willing to suffer at our ignorant and barbarous hands to show the TRUE NATURE of God by NOT smiting us or otherwise acting like the barbarous OT Yahweh. "Forgive them they know not what they do."

Okay, well I agree... sort of.

 

[Jordan St. Francis]

The whole point of Jesus's mission was to eradicate that erroneous OT view of God and replace it with His unconditional love for ALL humankind.

Except that this is a Marcionian heresy. The Old Testament can be interpreted incorrectly, and perhaps was so by some in Jesus' time, but Christian revelation is committed to continuity with the Old Testament, which is understood to be equally inspired. The New Testament reveals the meaning of the Old- it does not abrogate it.

 

[MysticPhD]

Except that this is a Marcionian heresy. The Old Testament can be interpreted incorrectly, and perhaps was so by some in Jesus' time, but Christian revelation is committed to continuity with the Old Testament, which is understood to be equally inspired. The New Testament reveals the meaning of the Old- it does not abrogate it.

Marcion rejected the OT . . . I reinterpret its more spiritual guidance and purpose in light of the audience it addressed and their barbarity and lack of spiritual development and understanding. To apply the OT literally to modern humans is as inappropriate as applying early learning lessons and experiences for toddlers and small children to fully grown adults.