My Chat with Jews For Jesus

[dantech]

As you may know, I've been looking into Jews for Jesus. Needless to say, what they do is despicable. Here is a chat between me and them where I act like a lost Jew who is looking for "answers":


Topic: Jesus

Status: connected with Bobbie

Bobbie

Hello

Dan

Hello

Bobbie

What brings you online today?

Dan

I'm Jewish. I started reading about Jesus and am interested, but too many things seem to contradict Judaism

Bobbie

Well Dan, the Lord brought you to the right volunteer. I'm Jewish and have believed in Jesus for over 14 years, so ask away

Dan

You were born Jewish?

Bobbie

Yup, my Hebrew Name is Razel (yes, I know it's Yiddish, but it was my grandmother's name) Bas Lazar

Dan

and you were raised Jewish?

Bobbie

2 years of Sunday School, 5 years of Hebrew School, Bas Mitvash (I"m old, that's why I use Bas instead of Bat) and 1 year of Hebrew High School

Dan

So what made you switch?

Bobbie

I don't consider it "switching". I consider it following the Lord's plan for salvation, which all people, Jews and Gentiles should be doing. I'm still as Jewish as the day I was born, I just don't follow "modern" Judaism, which is based on Rabbinical interpretation instead of Biblical.

Dan

So who is Jesus for you?

Bobbie

Y'shua (Jesus) my Lord, Savior, the Messiah promised to our people. He was prophesied by Moses and is God

Dan

Let me rephrase my question

What made you start believing in Jesus as the Savior, the Messiah promised to our people by Moses.

And then, explain to me how he is God, please.

Bobbie

I started reading Scripture. Started in Genesis, then went to Leviticus, then Isaiah.

Moses didn't actually predict a "Messiah". He foretold of a prophet greater than him. As you know, no human is held in higher regard by our people than Moshe, but he told us that one greater than he would be sent.

Dan

In what verse does he say a prophet greater than him?

Bobbie

In Genesis, Chapter 1, it starts with "In the beginning God......". The Hebrew word for God is Elohim, which is plural. It's gonna take ma few minutes to find that Moses verse,, can you hold on????

Dan

Sure

Bobbie

ok, I got it a bit wrong, here's the actual verse: Deuteronomy 18:15 The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your countrymen, you shall listen to him.

Dan

Yes, but this was right after he was told that he won't make it into the promised land. And therefore, the Hebrews Would have needed a prophet to guide them into the land. Which happened to Be Yehoshua (Not Jesus)

Bobbie

Also, in Genesis Chapter 2, (I believe,I"m not great at verse locations, but I can find them if necessary), God says "Let US create man in OUR image". Also, proverbs 30:4 says Who has ascended into heaven, or descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has bound the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name, and what is His Son’s name, If you know?

Dan

I don't believe that verse points to Jesus in any way

Bobbie

Dan, let's get back to basics. What questions do you have, that you think contradict Judaism. Let's talk about what is Biblical and what comes from the Rabbis.

Dan

That is basics for me. I learned my whole life that Torah is very specific, and true, and cannot be wrong, and that's a firm belief I have.

Bobbie

I agree. Torah is very specific and true and cannot be wrong. I'm not disagreeing with you at all

Dan

So I want to know which scripture comes tell us that we will have a Messiah that can be defined as Jesus

Bobbie

fair enough. Let me check out a few.. did you see the one in Proverbs, that talks about God's son?

Dan

Let me check it out in the original language.

One moment

Bobbie

k

Here are some prophesies about Messiah that Jesus fulfilled. I can send you the link to the whole article if you want:

Messiah was to be born at Bethlehem: Micah 5:2 (Micah 5:1 in Hebrew Bible) Messiah would be from the tribe of Judah: Genesis 49:10 Messiah would present himself by riding on an ***: Zechariah 9:9 Messiah would be tortured to death: Psalm 22 Messiah would arrive before the destruction of the Second Temple: Daniel 9:24-27 Messiah's life would match a particular description, including suffering, silence at his arrest and trial, death and burial in a rich man's tomb, and resurrection: Isaiah 52:13-53:12

Dan

Okay, I read the Proverbs one.

Son of God is something that is often used in the Tanakh to refer to the Children of Israel

For example, see Exodus 4:21-23

This is what I mean. Jesus' story is interesting, and seems to want to draw me in because it's just so easy to believe in him.

Bobbie

but in the Proverb, it is specifically talking about God and His Son. I don't think the children of Israel can accend into heaven and back again

Dan

That's the point

The verse is saying Who is it that is ascending and doing all these things that only God can do?

Bobbie

Dan, belief begins with Faith. Have you ever considered asking HaShem for the truth?

Dan

Who is his son? Since no one who has a son can do these things, the verse is answering that only God can do these things.

I pray every day, and ask for the truth from Hashem

Bobbie

Well, since i believe that Jesus fulfills the position of Son, He can do all things, since HE is God.

Dan

But I also believe that nothing comes for free. I need to work to get to where I want to be

so my work was coming to this site to get the answers i am searching for.

Bobbie

But HaShem's love is free and His Mercy and His forgiveness and His peace and all that comes from Him

Dan

We agree on that one

Hashem's love is free

his Mercy isn't

You want mercy, you need to work for it. pray for it, repent

Bobbie

Ok, you are right, you have to ask for it, repent, but it's based on what's in your heart, not on any "work" you can do. You can't buy mercy or forgiveness, but you can pray. See, I don't consider praying "work". I consider it talking to my Father in Heaven. I talk to Him all the time and when I miss the mark (sin), I ask HIm to forgive me and He does.

Part of the challenge for us (Jews) is that we live our lives based on what our religion says. We equate Talmud with Torah. Torah was given to Moses directly from the mind of HaShem. Talmud is man's interpretation of it.

Dan

That's what I meant. I didn't mean it as actual work. but it is something that needs to be "worked on"

So you don't believe Moses received an Oral Torah as well?

Bobbie

Glad you cleared that up. Some people think they can "work" their way into God's good graces by doing charitable deeds, helping others, etc. These things are necessary, and pleasing to God, but not how you get forgiveness

Let's say for a minute that I do (I don't). If Moses received it, then how come it's still being commented on? How come there is more than one school of thought? How come there is a Babylonian and is it an Alexandrian Talmud. Why do Rabbi's still comment?

Let me give you an example of what I'm talking about from personal experience

Dan

It's not an alexandrian Talmud, It's Yerushalmi (from Jerusalem, though it’s not actually from Jerusalem)

Bobbie

My first husband was a very big man (over 500 lbs). when he died, the funeral home didn't have a "Kosher" casket. My rabbi said we needed to wait a day, until he could have a "Kosher" casket. My mother-in-law's rabbi said it was more important to be buried within 24 hours

Sorry, I"m not a Talmudic scholar, but I knew there were two. thanks for clarifying

 

[dantech]

Dan

There are different schools of thought simply because we need to apply the law to our every day needs. There wasn’t electricity back then, so that would be a topic of debate, today.

Bobbie

But Dan, if Moses was given the ENTIRE LAW at Sinai, why did Rabbis' need to keep commenting. See, that's why I believe that Torah was given at Sinai and Talmud is the Rabbi's interpretation.

Dan

How do you wear your tefilin? Your Tsitsit?

Bobbie

I'm a girl, I can't answer that

Dan

True, sorry. How would you instruct your children to do so, since you are indeed Jewish, and the written law tells us to wear them.

Bobbie

Let me ask you another question. Do you keep Kosher?

Dan

I do.

Bobbie

Was it Torah or the Rabbis who decided you couldn't have a glass of milk with a hamburger

Dan

The Rabbis

But the Torah instructed to us to listen to our rabbis

Bobbie

Please give me chapter and verse on that

Dan

one moment

Bobbie

k

And I'll even accept any part of the Tenach

Dan

Deuteronomy 17:11 According to the sentence of the law which they shall teach you, and according to the judgment which they shall tell you, you shall do: you shall not decline from the sentence which they shall show you, to the right hand, nor to the left.

who is They?

Bobbie

k.. let me do some original language and context...

Dan

Here, the original language:

לא תסור מן הדבר אשר יגידו לך ימין ושמאל על פי התורה אשר יורוך

The next verse:

Deuteronomy 17:12 And the man that will do presumptuously, and will not listen to the priest that stands to minister there before the LORD your God, or to the judge, even that man shall die: and you shall put away the evil from Israel.

Bobbie

Ah, I see. I will ask my friend who is a better scriptural scholar than I am. I have never seen this verse before.

Dan

Then how did you start believing in Jesus if you have been raised Jewish without at least learning about your own religion first?

Can I speak to your friend?

Bobbie

Unfortunately, he is not in right now. I do need to study more of the Old Testament though.



Dan

The Old Testament is a Christian term that is offensive to Judaism and should not be used by you, a Jew unless you truly believe that the Torah is old, and outdated in contrast to the Christian bible which is New and more applicable to us today.

Bobbie

Thank you for clearing that up, I will make the adjustment.

Dan, the reason I'm bringing all this up is because you said that you had conflicts with Jesus and Judaism and I'm asking you to consider that it's the Rabbinical Interpretation which is what modern Judaism is based on is the problem, not the Torah, Tenach or Jesus

Dan

Judaism is Rabbinical only in the sense that Judaism is taught to us by Rabbis.

Bobbie

But then didn't the Rabbi's comment on the MIshnah with the Gammorah and isn't the commentaty on both the Talmud?

Dan

The Gemmarah is the commentary

of the Mishnah

Bobbie

that's what I said, the Rabbi's commented on the Mishnah with the Gammarah and the two combined are the Talmud. And the Rabbis are still commenting on the Talmud, which is producing new and different laws, so how can the the WHOLE LAW have been given to Moses when the Rabbis are still writing them?

Dan

Oh okay, I understand your question.

Bobbie

Let me ask you a question and based on that question, give you an example

Do you believe that HaShem knows everything, past, present and future?

I love when us Yidden argue!

Dan

The Rabbis today are commenting and debating on laws. That's right

What laws they are debating on are the ones that aren't written in the Talmud simply because the situations didn't exist back then

Electricity didn't exist in the time of the Talmud, so they debate on electricity

Stoves

Ovens

Heaters

Lamps

All that kind of stuff

Bobbie

that goes back to my question of whether or not HaShem is all knowing, past, present and future

Dan

definitely

Bobbie

Well, if He gave ALL the LAW on Sinai, wouldn't He have known about SToves, Electircity, Ovens and all that kind of stuff? Did we invent these things as a suprise to Him? If we did, he's not god, if we didn't then shouldn't these things have been covered at Sinai, since He gave us ALL the LAW, written and oral?

Dan

Of course he knew

Which is why he said in the verse that I showed that we should listen to what our judges and teachers tell us

Bobbie

Then why would He let a bunch of men debate such things, when He already knew what the answer would be?

Dan

Ok, let me ask you the same question

God knows future, passed and present?

Bobbie

yup

Dan

Then why would he send a new testament when we already have the Torah, which he says frequently is everlasting. Another question, Why send a Messiah that will fail, and end up being tortured for the good that he is doing? Couldn’t he foresee these events, and make sure they don’t happen?

Bobbie

There are mysteries and prophesies in the Hebrew Scriptures that were illuminated in the New Testament. Jesus said He didn't come to change the Law, but to fulfill it.

Dan

You are dodging my question, but I’ll move on.

Where have we ever seen a possibility of fulfilling law?

law is everlasting and needs to be practiced until the end of times

Bobbie

Dan, there's an old expression that goes like this: The Old Testament is the New Testament veiled and the New Testament is the Old Testament unveiled

I'm not talking about law, I'm talking about prophesies. The Law given to Moses at Sinai was a conditional covenent between God and the Jews. Do good and He would bless us, don't do so good and He would curse us. He told us that. He also gave us an unconditional conventant with Him, through Abraham.

Dan

True, but where does it say that this covenant could be broken, or fulfilled

the opposite is often showed : it is here to be everlasting

Throughout our generations, and forever.

Bobbie

So, how come you're not keeping it fully?

Dan

How am I not keeping it fully

Bobbie

Sacrafice any lambs lately?

Dan

LOL

I'd like to but don’t have a temple to do so.

Bobbie

I'm not joking. If the Law was everlasting, then why did HaShem allow His Temple to be destroyed so that a good percentage of His Laws would be impossible to fulfill?

Scriputre tells us that the remisission of sin is in the blood. How then does prayer, charity and good works replace that? God never said so

Dan

First of all, the only sins that blood could cleanse were unintentional sins.

Secondly, God didn’t let the temple be destroyed, he orchestrated its destruction simply because, as you said, we didn’t deserve it.

Bobbie

to the XXth generation?

 

[dantech]

Dan

When we will deserve it, we will build it

and it will be standing forever.

And God did say so

Bobbie

Do you really think that God will condemn all those of these generations who can't sacrifice without a plan for us?

again, chapter and verse for "prayer replaces sacrifices"?

Dan

The Prophet Hoshea said that we will

(Hosea 14:3)

You said before that you will accept the whole Tanakh as scripture, so there you go.

Now, as for your second question

I don't understand

I don't think we are condemned

I just think that we don't deserve a temple right now

And haven't for the past 2000 years.

Don't you think Jesus' coming should have made our temple stand, rather than break down?

Bobbie

It also says that we will render the calf to our lips, so that there is a sacrafice implied

Dan

That's a mistranslation

The original text says that with our lips, we will fulfill(substitute) the sacrifices

This was prophecised after the destruction of the tmeple

the context is clear. We can no longer offer sacrifices, so we shall fulfill their obligation with our prayers

Bobbie

Hebrew word is Par (bullock - young bull).

Dan

not Par

Parim

plural of cow

Bobbie

Parim is plural... so you see, CALVES

Dan

Neshalema : Fulfill

Parim: cows

Sefateinu: our lips

when you take the context into account, it shows that since we are in a time without a place to be able to make sacrifices, we will need to use our lips to fulfill that commandment

BTW, even King Solomon said that it was okay to pray in I Kings 8:46-50

Bobbie

Dan, you may be right, but I'm not studied enough on Hosea to know for sure. The beginning of this conversation was not to increase my knowlege of the Old Testament, unless you are actually an anti-missionary in disguise, but to deal with issues about why you won't consider Jesus as Messiah. If you are so intuned with Rabbinical Judaism and won't consider that Jesus may indeed be Messiah, then what is it about Him that interests you?

Dan

How did so many choose to believe in him being the messiah, especially with the other prophecies that we didn't even talk about being so clear that he could not be.

That's what my Jewish upbringing is telling me

my curiousity however...

Bobbie

give me an example of a prophesy that He didn't fulfill.

Dan

My curiousity is asking me to learn more about him. There must be something because he single handedly influenced western civilization in ways no one else ever has during 2000 years.

Sure, I'll give you prophecies. One second

Bobbie

Have you considered contacting Jews for Jesus? They have biblical experts who could explain things way better than I can. I'm just a middle aged woman who loves Jesus and knows a little bit about the Scriptures

Dan

I have

I called them 20 times today, no answer

Isaiah 2:1-4, 32:15-18, 60:15-18; Zephaniah 3:9; Hosea 2:20-22; Amos 9:13-15; Micah 4:1-4; Zechariah 8:23, 14:9; Jeremiah 31:33-34

Bobbie

Which branch?

Dan

All these verse show that after the Messiah comes, God will be known to the whole world, and we will have one universal knowledge og him

of him*

I tried 1888-Messiah

and the local number I found for Montreal Canada

Bobbie

Well, the Messiah is coming back again. I believe that Rabbis at one time referred to the two comings of Messiah as Messiah Ben Joseph and Messiah Ben David. It's what Christians call the "2nd coming"

Dan

But Messiah Ben Joseph and Messiah Ben David clearly refers to two different Messiahs

So Jesus can't have a second coming according to that theological idea

Messiah son of Joseph

Messiah son of David

They aren't the same person

Bobbie

He can if He's God. I know Karl from the MOntreal office. What was the local number you used?

Dan

(514) 626-3333

Why do you love Jesus

Bobbie

That's the number. Maybe there's a problem with the phones.

I love Jesus because He's my everything. He provides for me. He loves me. He died for me. He is.

Dan

this might sound wrong and insulting but it is not at all my intention. Do you love Jesus because of the way the Rabbi handled your late husband's passing?

were you a believer before?

Bobbie

Not an unfair question. I don't love Jesus because of the Rabbis confusing thoughts.I lost both my parents and my first husband within 18 months of each other and like you, went on a spiritual journey. Mine was to find out what happened to you after you died. I really really really needed to know. And it was a 6 year journey (my mom died after my husband). I looked for God everywhere and I knew the answer COULD NOT BE Jesus. But after 6 long years of looking, searching and crying out to the God I knew existed, He led me to a place where I heard the Gospel for the first time and a few hours after that, I knew that no matter what the cost (and there is a cost for Jew to believe in Jesus), it didn't mater. I had always asked God for something, it was pretty steady through out many years and when I really started to consider that Jesus could be the answer, God gave me what I needed to make the decision.

Dan

You see, this is the problem I have.

Many people who I have met, and who have turned to Jews for Jesus, did so when they were vulnerable

Bobbie

Maybe it's the only time that God can get their attention. I hear what you're saying, but it's not like I said, well Rabbis you failed, therefore I'll become a Christian. I investigated Reincarnation, had my own religion for a while (just me and God), looked for answers in science etc. It ia also an amazing stereotype amonst Rabbis that any Jew who believes in Jesus is either under-educated or vuneralbe. I was neither

Don't know if you know much about the States, but I'm a Jersey girl and my mom was a NYC kid, so there's not much vunerability there. We know how to handle anything

Dan

But you see, I believe I am under-educated, and the very little I know about scripture is reeallllyyyy preventing me from believing in Jesus as the Messiah

and don't get me started about Jesus being God

You see, if you told someone else who doesn't know the little that I know, he would have no reason not to believe in Jesus

if this person is vulnerable and looking for something new, it would only make it that much easier

Bobbie

Dan, you know WAY more than the average Jew. I bet you went to Yeshiva

Dan

I didn't, but that's not the point

If I know more than the average Jew

Bobbie

Dan, most Jews don't know Genesis from Proverbs

Dan

that means that the average Jew could not have rebuttalled effectively at the verses and statements you have made

meaning that to start believing in Jesus would just be super-easy for them

don't you think that's a problem?

Bobbie

But I wouldn't have used them. I would have started with "Do you believe in God". There are many many of our people who doubt His existance

Dan

Shouldn't they be way more informed before making a decision

 

[Tumah]

I can't believe this. You are my hero. She claims that she's not "under-educated" yet she is unfamiliar with half the verses you quote. This is hilarious.
:clap

 

[RabbiO]

I can't believe this. You are my hero. She claims that she's not "under-educated" yet she is unfamiliar with half the verses you quote. This is hilarious.
:clap

Actually, it is kind of sad. The uninformed leading the, most often, even less informed.

Peter

 

[dantech]

I can't believe this. You are my hero. She claims that she's not "under-educated" yet she is unfamiliar with half the verses you quote. This is hilarious.
:clap

Incredible, isn't it?

 

[Flankerl]

I would find it better if you edited her nickname and name to something random.

Because posting such p2p chats on some forum isnt that nice so at least change the nick and name.

 

[dantech]

I would find it better if you edited her nickname and name to something random.

Because posting such p2p chats on some forum isnt that nice so at least change the nick and name.

I did. She has a different name

 

[Levite]

Yup, this is actually on the better end of par for the course.

When I was young, right after college, and living very poor, my chief source of free entertainment was to go down to the main street of the town I was living in, where street missionaries flocked, and debate them. Most of them were even less informed than this woman you encountered. Same with the JWs who used to come to our door: they learned to skip our apartment because I would invite them in, give them lemonade, and then debate them, apparently then causing their younger missionaries to return to the church with troubling questions.

Part of what infuriates me so much about missionaries isn't just the chutzpah of the basic premise-- "Let me explain to you why your culture and faith are wrong, and you should abandon them for what we tell you,"-- it's that they prey upon the ignorant and the vulnerable. The spiel these people are handing out only works if you know little about Judaism, and have minimal serious connection to it.

 

[dantech]

Yup, this is actually on the better end of par for the course.

When I was young, right after college, and living very poor, my chief source of free entertainment was to go down to the main street of the town I was living in, where street missionaries flocked, and debate them. Most of them were even less informed than this woman you encountered. Same with the JWs who used to come to our door: they learned to skip our apartment because I would invite them in, give them lemonade, and then debate them, apparently then causing their younger missionaries to return to the church with troubling questions.

Part of what infuriates me so much about missionaries isn't just the chutzpah of the basic premise-- "Let me explain to you why your culture and faith are wrong, and you should abandon them for what we tell you,"-- it's that they prey upon the ignorant and the vulnerable. The spiel these people are handing out only works if you know little about Judaism, and have minimal serious connection to it.

I wonder if these missionaries ever see the error of their ways?

 

[Avi1001]

Incredible, isn't it?

Great interview, Danny, thanks for sharing !

If you give me her contact info., I will try to convert her to reform Judaism .

 

[Flankerl]

I did. She has a different name

I did not know that.

 

[Sees]

Blue DIR - may I say this is a great thread?

 

[dantech]

Blue DIR - may I say this is a great thread?

Thanks, but you've been reported... Follow the rules dude!

LOL jk

 

[dantech]

Great interview, Danny, thanks for sharing !

If you give me her contact info., I will try to convert her to reform Judaism .

Live chat at JewsForJesus.org

You should do it, and them show us the chat

 

[Akivah]

To me, the missionary could easily have handled many Jews. I was surprised that she stayed on the phone when your conversation took a turn from asking about J, to going more on the offensive about her beliefs. She ID you as a counter-missionary, but still tried to keep going. I found it typical that every time you stumped her, she just changed the topic. She was all into direct literal verses from the bible until they started disproving her statements, then she switched to "oh, it's not the laws, but it's the prophecies and the GT that matter."

And for men debating things, why not ask her about the multiple denominations of xianity that can't agree on anything. Why are there so many different xian beliefs if her idol made everything so clear?

 

[dantech]

It wasn't on the phone. It was a live chat online. I thought of these questions when I re-read the whole conversation. On the spot, however, it was going so fast that it was just "let's skip ahead"

 

[dantech]

I've been asked by a few people to move this thread to a debate dir. What do you think? Should I request that it be moved?

 

[Tarheeler]

I've been asked by a few people to move this thread to a debate dir. What do you think? Should I request that it be moved?

Depends on what you're looking to get out of it. If you have it moved, then it's going to turn into a scriptural debate.

 

[Flankerl]

What Tarheeler said. Its pretty obvious what kind of people it would attract.