My Christianity, Mere Christianity

[Troublemane]

Then what does "love" mean? I submit that it's the key to this passage why an exegesis on the word "enemy" may do more harm than good.

I think God is in the enemy as much as a friend. Enemies can be a challenge as well, maybe a 'contender' is not so much a literal enemy as it is a message that we each are part of a larger world, and God encompasses all alternatives.

Fantastic/lovely ideas there Dopp, BTW. I agree completely about faith. I have come to view faith also as not a thing or a measure of "belief", but as a dimension of the soul. Ignoring it would be like building a house according to the blueprints, but only going according to the length and breadth measurements, and neglecting the depth. It may look like the house from the front (like a hollywood film set), but theres no room to live inside. :angel2:

 

[tomspug]

Tsk. Of course my vision of Christianity makes room for them. Theirs doesn't make room for me (and I'm fine with that). But their need to pretend to be right doesn't change my experiences. :rainbow1: Why is it so important that everyone agree with your vision of what is the right form of Christianity, tom?

I don't intend to be oppressive or divisive.

I am merely answering your post. Christianity, to me, only makes sense if there is a direct, personal relationship with God. You SAY that you used to believe the same things I did, but for that to be true, then you would have, at some point, have believed yourself to HAVE a personal relationship with God.

I am really curious, if that were true, what convinced you that it was not true?

 

[Jeremy Mason]

Thank you for that honest and heart felt testimony. I find Christianity in the two rules Jesus presented for humanity. Love God and love others as you love yourself. The simplicity and thoroughness is beautiful and universal.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Then what does "love" mean? I submit that it's the key to this passage why an exegesis on the word "enemy" may do more harm than good.

Yeah, dopp. I've reflected on this a lot.

I think that love is provision for the needs and desires of other people, in the same way that we provide for our needs and desires. An "enemy" is one who seeks to deny our needs and desires by denying or restricting our access to the goods and services needed to provide for our needs. That is, they provide for themselves by denying us access, even if they can find what they need somewhere else.

With respect to God, love is obedience - providing for the commandments and goodness of God - making room in our hearts for God.

 

[doppelganger]

I am really curious, if that were true, what convinced you that it was not true?

You didn't answer my question, tom. In good faith, I'll answer yours, but I'll be expecting your answer, too. :sarcastic

I found that I wasn't in relationship to "God" but was only experiencing comforting feelings from imagining such a relationship. Belief in "God" worked for me because during that time I needed some sense of certainty. What changed? I got to know myself better and with that maturity lost the need for certainty, and began to see the "God" I had a relationship with was actually just a second personality I had been taught to fashion to hold my own fears, anxiety, frustration and anger.

 

[doppelganger]

I think that love is provision for the needs and desires of other people, in the same way that we provide for our needs and desires. An "enemy" is one who seeks to deny our needs and desires by denying or restricting our access to the goods and services needed to provide for our needs. That is, they provide for themselves by denying us access, even if they can find what they need somewhere else.

So to love your enemy is to provide for the needs and desires of those who seek to deny your needs and desires?

- making room in our hearts for God.

Can you elaborate on what you mean by that?

 

[doppelganger]

Thank you for that honest and heart felt testimony. I find Christianity in the two rules Jesus presented for humanity. Love God and love others as you love yourself. The simplicity and thoroughness is beautiful and universal.

Yes, that really does sum it up, doesn't it?

What does it mean to you to "love God"?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

So to love your enemy is to provide for the needs and desires of those who seek to deny your needs and desires?

Yep. At least, that's how I understand the NT.

Can you elaborate on what you mean by that?

Well, I think that in the NT, it is provision for the commandments of God. I'm not sure how to translate that into a modern theology.

 

[doppelganger]

Well, I think that in the NT, it is provision for the commandments of God. I'm not sure how to translate that into a modern theology.

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. So "making room in our hearts for God" just means following the commandments?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I'm not sure I understand what your saying. So "making room in our hearts for God" just means following the commandments?

No, I wouldn't be that restrictive. It may be circular: love for God is providing for God's commandments (which requires making room in our hearts for God) and the commandment is to love God and neighbor.

By "making room" I mean emptying ourselves from the worries that keep us from hope. That is, whatever goodwill towards ourselves that would prevent us from allowing our enemies to consume us.

 

[Heneni]

Yeah, dopp. I've reflected on this a lot.

I think that love is provision for the needs and desires of other people, in the same way that we provide for our needs and desires. An "enemy" is one who seeks to deny our needs and desires by denying or restricting our access to the goods and services needed to provide for our needs. That is, they provide for themselves by denying us access, even if they can find what they need somewhere else.

With respect to God, love is obedience - providing for the commandments and goodness of God - making room in our hearts for God.

Excellent post. Frubals.

 

[Jeremy Mason]

Yes, that really does sum it up, doesn't it?

What does it mean to you to "love God"?

I think it starts out with being real about who I am. I think God knows if I can't be honest with myself, then I probably won't be honest with Him. Oddly, it's the hardest and test filled moments of my live that have provided me with the greatest opportunity to manifest my love or my contempt for Him. Being an agent of creation in times of persecution, being a happily giver to people and my self indignation and resolve to combat my inter-demons are some love characteristics that I offer to God. Knowing all the while, my life now and to come is firmly in His hands.

 

[tomspug]

You didn't answer my question, tom. In good faith, I'll answer yours, but I'll be expecting your answer, too. :sarcastic

I found that I wasn't in relationship to "God" but was only experiencing comforting feelings from imagining such a relationship. Belief in "God" worked for me because during that time I needed some sense of certainty. What changed? I got to know myself better and with that maturity lost the need for certainty, and began to see the "God" I had a relationship with was actually just a second personality I had been taught to fashion to hold my own fears, anxiety, frustration and anger.

Perhaps it's a relic of denominationalism that comes off as intolerant, but I'm perfectly fine with the religions of other people. I've come to accept that there are many people that consider themselves "Christian" while not falling within my own definition.

But what you must understand is that, according to my beliefs, I have an obligation to challenge the faith of others. I am not trying to make other people look stupid or alienate people of faith. I am merely calling into question those things that make us different.

I'm glad that you discovered your "relationship" for what it was. I'm sure that was a great relief on your part. It certainly would seem like a mistake to me to continue to live a lie.

For myself, I can honestly say that I don't empathize, though. Our experiences are not the same in that I don't identify those negative feelings with my faith. I may turn to faith when I experience fear, anxiety, frustration, or anger. But through my relationship with God, he takes them away from me. They don't define me or my faith. What makes my relationship with God real? I am one of those Christians who God doesn't seem to speak in a clear voice to, probably because I do not have a strong faith. Let me elaborate... I have a STRONG faith in the will of God, but a stronger will of my own. So, uh, I'm not very good at listening. :ignore:

What does affirm my faith for me is the reality of the Holy Spirit. It really is real. It allows me to love those that hate and hurt me. It gives me a superhuman ability to serve others without tire. It literally makes my life feel better and improves my relationships. It's hard to argue with the continuous fact that the less I focus on God, the less I read the Bible, and the less I pray, the more difficult and frustrating life becomes. And the more I do those things, the more clear and satisfying I see life to be.

Granted, these are experiential evidences, but to me they seem to be very worthwhile and telling experiential evidences.